Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

I am not frustrated with you NoNo and please don't go away, I for one really want to hear how you get on.

I think you were brilliant to send that email, it's a huge step forward for you. One only has to look at your first post to see the enormous progress you have made in only a few days. I am impressed.

I think possibly many people just don't get how it is to be raised how you have been (thankfully it is fairly rare) and they hope that once they tell you what to do, you'll just do it.

But real life doesn't work that way. We have to do things in our own way and our own time in order to be true to ourselves.

Infact I would go so far as to say that people getting grumpy with you for not taking their well-intended advice are just adding to the pressure you are already feeling.

Your email is a very strong statement in the context of who you are and what your parents are like. And, as you point out, it is likely they will not respond so in a way it sorts itself out.

You have dealt with the most pressing problem which was your child's birthday party - fantastic - and, when you are ready, you can deal with the next part.

All the best and I hope the party is wonderful

the children do talk about my parents and are always pleased when they know they are going to see them. the risk, if i cut them out completely, is that they grow up resenting me for stopping them from seeing them, as they wouldn't understand what happened

the thing is, op...the reason they are so accepting of the treatment of your grandparents is that they already think it is the norm. They are already conditioned to think that your parents are justified in treating them this way, because you are showing them that!

The risk is, if you don't cut them out is that your children will resent for years of abuse, where you did nothing! They don't think anything is amiss right now, but they will over time. They are trusting you to keep them safe from harm & you are not doing that!

Were you able to recognise that your parents' behaviour towards you was abusive when you were the same age as your dcs? Or were you unquestioning because you didn't know differently?

You claim that your dc enjoy seeing their gps. How much of this alleged 'enjoyment' is due to their unquestioning nature which may have been compounded by you behaving as if nothing is out of the ordinary on those occasions when your parents have inflicted abuse on them?

When their gps' visits are anticipated, have you encouraged them to look forward to seeing them? Have you fostered a notion in their heads of the type of white-haired, crinkly faced, rosy cheeked, doting and fond gps that you've read about in books? When the reality has been less than the actuality, have you encouraged your dc to vent to you about the way they've been treated by their gps?

If you haven't done so already, I suggest that you give your dc permssion to tell you how they really feel about their gps. Begin this conversation by saying 'I've decided that I don't like that grandma/grandpa smacked dd the last time you saw them and we're not going to see them again until you're a lot bigger than you are now...

I encouraged you earlier to resume EFT (Brad Yates - youtube) and I now exhort you to buy Brad's book 'The Wizard's Wish; Or how he made the yuckies go away - A story about the magic in You' and read it to your dc to help them overcome the effects of your childhood.

At this point, I must confess to feeling somewhat more than a tad frustrated with you. However, this is most definitely not because you have failed to act on my advice such as it was in my one previous contribution to this lengthy post.

My frustration stems from your failure to act on your realisation that you are putting yourself, as well as your dc at risk, by failing to follow through with the police.

As it stands, and as you yourself have pointed out, it is your name that is linked to a police logged incident of child abuse involving your dd, yet you were content to wait until yesterday and your much vaunted session with your counsellor before making contact with the relevant authority.

Do you intend to take any steps to clear your name by having this incident properly recorded by virtue of the fact that the offenders are visited by the police authority to whom it was reported ?

Are you willing to risk the possibility that your parents will seize the opportunity you have alerted them to and threaten to divulge this incident to your ex if you do not bend to their will?

Are you confident that, in the absence of a proper police log of the incident, your ex would choose to believe your account over whatever version your parents may provide?

It seems to me that you either you have been economical with the truth when divulging information to your counsellor, or your counsellor is not worthy of the title. I make this assumption because, from what you have said about your behaviour when in their presence, at the present time there is no way that you should be tasked with 'managing' contact between your parents and your dc.

It also seems to me that you spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for others to give you permission to do things that the vast majority of us rightly take for granted and, to a large extent, undertake automatically on a daily basis.

To this extent, it appears that you have failed to consider the concept that you DO NOT need the approval of your parents or anyone else to raise your dc in a manner that owes nothing to your childhood and that, as an adult with dc of your own, you are not obliged to remain locked into your historic childhood relationship with parents or allow this to negatively impact on either your present or your future.

I feel bad for you NoNo because you need some proper support to tackle this issue with your parents, a counsellor who has a clue would be a good start. It's really, really hard to confront parents like yours, so I'm amazed your counsellor thought s/he could tell you to do this in such a casual way.

Some people on this thread are being really harsh. It takes huge courage to turn a toxic relationship around. Your e-mail is buying you time while you build up some courage to make the right decisions. You have only minimal support in tackling this issue so it's totally understandable that you need time. It's easy for a bunch of people on an internet forum to tell you what you should say and do but we're not professional counsellors (I think??!?) so what do we know?

Go with your gut feeling and keep at it. Your e-mail was fine and you are feeling your way in baby steps towards the right decision. That's the best that can be expected considering how much you have to push against, including your own counsellor's poor advice. Find a new counsellor and ask for the support of your good friend and partner in staying strong against your parents. As you say, it's good that your mother will not be speaking to you now for a while so that'll give you the time you need to get more intensive counseling and build up some strength. It all takes time. Good luck!

NoNo - yes we're all rooting for you. Good job starting the process off.

I wonder if your counsellor talked in terms of confronting the parents because of the injustice you're carrying. They grossly mistreated you and now your kids, but they have never been held to account. You'll be carrying that injustice and anger around with you for some time to come.

I think there's something healthy about speaking plainly face to face before breaking off contact. I don't think it can be done though when you're feeling vulnerable - you have to build up your confidence and find your own voice. You still seem a bit vulnerable to me right now.

Well, it sounds like a step in the right direction.

Well done!

Animation, that is very hard to do because toxic parents NEVER acknowledge what they are being told. If they did, there would be dialogue and they wouldn't be toxic!

I think math pulled her up that she didn't make a clear distinction: you did X and Y will result.

But we are talking about a very battered human being, who is taking the huge risk of speaking up for the first time. Her voice will be squeaky, faint and she will be terrified. In her lizard brain are all the thrashings she got for crying and having needs on the bus. In her lizard brain she IS going to be annhialated.

Good luck NoNo. Remember what courage is: being convinced you are going to die, and STILL doing the right thing.

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if I missed something.

This relationship is not worth pursuing. It is not healthy for you or your children. The pros of your parents visits are definately outweighed by the cons.

They are clearly extremely nasty hateful people who should never really have had the delight of having you as their daughter.

Cut all contact now for yours and your childrens mental health.

I cut contact from my own abusive mother 6 years ago as she started to speak to DS in the same way she used to speak to me.

It was definatley the right decision, I have been happier and much less stressed ever since.

NoNoNo:

'you are putting yourself, as well as your dc at risk, by failing to follow through with the police.
As it stands, and as you yourself have pointed out, it is your name that is linked to a police logged incident of child abuse involving your dd, yet you were content to wait until yesterday and your much vaunted session with your counsellor before making contact with the relevant authority.

Do you intend to take any steps to clear your name by having this incident properly recorded by virtue of the fact that the offenders are visited by the police authority to whom it was reported ?
Are you willing to risk the possibility that your parents will seize the opportunity you have alerted them to and threaten to divulge this incident to your ex if you do not bend to their will?

Are you confident that, in the absence of a proper police log of the incident, your ex would choose to believe your account over whatever version your parents may provide?'

Please re-read this post by Izzyizin.

It is perhaps very difficult for you to understand how all of this looks from the perspective of the wider society. When all you have known is this model of life, it may be hard to appreciate the scale and the true nature of what is happening. It's like standing really close up beside an elephant. You can't see the whole essence of the beast.
But this is what you need to understand about the significance of that police visit -- it should give you a few hints about what is happening and what needs to happen:
The can of worms is now blown open.
There is now an official police record of the report by the concerned citizen who called them, that is to say, the person who was so troubled by seeing the abuse of your child by your parents that he or she plucked up the courage to call.
People do not do this lightly.
You now know that someone reported them.
You now know that the police believed the report and took the information seriously enough to investigate your identity and pay you a call.
They want you to report your parents' identity and address to them.
If you don't do this they will assume you are not troubled by your parents' abuse of your child.
The implications of this have been spelled out by Izzy.

Even for the sake of covering your own ass, you must turn them in. You must clear your name and you must show the police that you understand the gravity of what your parents did to your child.

I'd back you up with what you said, actually. The important thing was that you said it and meant it. It doesn't really matter what words you used. Besides, I doubt they would be capable of understanding "you treated my children like crap and I'm not subjecting them to it any more". They would just gaze at you all bewildered and say "But your children are very badly behaved". (Like that would be the point even if it was true... but it is both true and to the point, in their distorted universe.)

I agree with everyone that your counsellor's advice sounds rather counter-intuitive, shall we say. My guess is she/he doesn't have much experience of abusive families.

Ooops, missed a whole page of comments. What Chaz said, mainly.

I think Izzy and Math are right about telling the truth to the police though.

I agree that any confrontation with your parents is likely to add insult to injury instead of giving you an opportunity to be heard in the way you want to be heard. Also that 'you treated my children, etc...' would get the same result as your father demonstrated when he called the person who reported them 'a coward' (denial and going on the attack). Bottom line is you are dealing with a solid brick wall here. I don't think there is any sort of managed contact that could have any hope of success. I really don't know how your counsellor could have come to the conclusion she arrived at.

NoNo you really must speak to the police, as people have said, and put the record straight. Your parents should be the ones with this on record about them, not you. Don't sacrifice yourself to avoid causing trouble for your parents - you can't risk the police thinking that you are the one who can't be trusted, for the sake of your kids.

NoNo Izzy and Math really do sound as though they work in this field. Please please take their advice seriously.

Please also know that when their backs are to the wall and their worldview is being threatened, distorted people will do ANYTHING to keep it unchallenged and that includes throwing you to the wolves. Math's warnings sound frighteningly realistic.

We really do not want to hear with horror that your ex has successfully applied for custody because you were paralysed over this issue.

I have this afternoon called the police station, from which the complaint about my parents was made. The officer who dealt with me is not available today, but is going to call me tomorrow. I would have gone down in person, but the station he works from is a small outpost, and I know it's not open every day, and the chances of finding him there were small anyway.

He is scheduled to call me tomorrow, and I will try and arrange for him to come to my house so that I can raise with him my concerns about the way this has been handled, and the implications of my parents' actions on me and also on their CRB clearance.

Today, totally out of the blue, DS (aged 5) told me a bit about what happened that day. DD (now 3 - birthday girl yesterday) was complaining of a sore bottom, and DS said 'she had a sore bottom on the bus. You remember when we caught the bus with nanny after swimming'. He then went on 'It wasn't sore because nanny smacked her. It was sore before then. When she started crying, nanny said 'if you don't stop crying, I will make your bottom even more sore'. (This is unfortunately exactly the sort of language she used with me). He then said 'Then she smacked her'. I said 'How did that make you feel?' and DS said 'OK. She was just being naughty'. DD didn't say anything, and I didn't ask. I said to him that I didn't like nanny's behaviour and it made me sad. I didn't say anything else.

Anyway, I am taking the steps... slowly...

OP

Your parents should not smack your children no way never no how.

I don't care about the excuses, reasons etc IT SOULD NOT HAPPEN!!

As I said upthread I stopped all contact with my mum when she started talking to DS the same way she spoke to me. If I hadn't stopped then no doubt it would have progressed into smacking from her too.

Only a parent should make the decision about smacking as and when they see fit.

If your daughters bottom was sore and she was upset about it then how did your mother smacking her help??

She should have been consoling her, that's what any normal person would have done. Only evil people see a child upset as an inconvenience!!

I really don't see why you would want these people in your life? Xx

Swimming - I don't want them in my life. Since my email to them telling them contact was stopping, I have not heard from them (as I predicted), and I feel an enormous sense of relief, which is what I always have felt in the past whenever they have stopped contact with me. This is the first time ever in my life that I have instigated the cessation of contact.

However, I have had 2 or 3 people in RL tell me that they are worried that the children will blame me for stopping them from seeing my parents. Even DD asked on Monday if we could phone my parents to talk to them. I said they were busy. I thought she might ask yesterday (on her birthday) to talk to them, but she didn't. I'm sure they will ask again, and DS in particular asks every now and then when we are going to see them again. Since we see them infrequently, it's not a problem fobbing him off. But there is a pang of guilt every time they ask.

Maybe the guilt is as much a feeling that I didn't try hard enough to manage the relationship with my parents and have therefore let my kids down because if I had tried harder, I may have been able to stage-manage contact. But I suspect you will all say that is the 'abused' child in me, thinking it's all her fault and if only she tried harder, everything would be fine.

I'm relieved to know that you are being proactive and are taking steps to clear your name, but I hope you will give consideration to also making direct contact with the police station to which the abuse of your dd was reported and, if necessary, speak to an officer in that regional police authority's Child Protection Unit.

Your dc seem to have accepted that if they are 'being naughty' they can expect to be, or deserve to be, physically chastised.

Merely telling your dc that you were 'sad' because of what their grandmother did to your dd has, in effect, given them the message that their grandmother's abusive and cruel behaviour is normal and is to be expected if they are in her care.

I trust you will take more steps to ensure that your dc are made aware that, even if they are 'being very, very, naughty', they should not expect to be physically chastised by ANY adult at ANY time for ANY reason.

Please, please, buy The Wizard's Wish as a belated gift for the birthday girl - it will be of immense benefit to your inner child as well as to your dc.

To be honest, I'm not sure why I am still posting here. It seems that every thing I do, say, write is not quite good enough. I'm used to that from my parents - I got it all the time. I don't really need to be reading the same sorts of things here.

So that will be my last post on this thread and I'm going to hide it. I think I know what I need to do. I don't need to read that my approach is all wrong...

Thanks to all of you, however, for accompanying me on this journey. I have appreciated the time you have taken to post here.

I wouldn't worry what people in RL have to say NoNoNo. They don't have your parents in their life do they?

Your children aren't 10 or 11. They see them infrequently, you say. They will not blame you in later life from stopping them seeing people who mostly shout and smack and get irritated by them anyway. They might just wonder why they aren't around. You have no reason to feel guilty at all! How much harder could you have tried really? You shouldn't have to feel stressed about stage managing contact.

I've just looked back on your OP and you say she has never ever approved of you or made you feel good about yourself. She also told you that you that you were the worse thing that ever happened to her. Can you imagine saying that to your children?? You want to protect them - you are doing a grand job.

I hope the local police pay them a visit i really do.

NoNoNo, I want to send you a great big (((())))) for your courage today in calling the police. When you talk to them you must make it clear that you completely disapprove of your parents' treatment of your children.

I also think you should contact the original police authority.

What was it about the police handling of the matter that you want to raise concerns about?

That conversation with your DS is very interesting, and in light of it an earlier post about the divide and conquer/golden child-scapegoat tactic that parents like yours adopt is worth a re-read.

I think there is a dynamic of this sort going on between your two children and their GPs, where they vie for approval that is sometimes given, sometimes withheld. Your DS has bought into the game -- hence his characterisation of his sister as naughty and thus deserving of whatever she got (left unspoken was 'I was the good one'). As your DD grows older, if contact is ever resumed, she will also get sucked in. They are involved in a competition for the fleeting and fickle affection of your parents, whatever crumbs they are tossed in between the put-downs and harshness. This possibly explains why they mention the GPs; they are like addicts whose drugs are never far from their mind. It is an indication that they have been conditioned to behave as satellites of your parents just as you were.

Do not pay any heed to people who are undermining your resolve to keep these poisonous people away from your precious children. Your DCs will have no hope of a normal childhood, let alone a happy one if these people are allowed contact.

The abused child in you wants a sense of control, hence the idea that your parents could be managed and that contact could be stage managed, but the desire for control here is also like an addictive substance. The desire to feel in control leaves you optimistic in the face of overwhelming evidence that pessimism is the only proper response. You have your pride (everyone does), and admitting you can't ever hope to have any control is very hard for a grown woman no mater what her circumstances. (Women are often shellshocked after they give birth because of this). With an abuser of any stripe, control is an illusion and your pride is not your friend. That is why letting the police in on this is courageous.

It is the abused child in you. It is not for you to make the effort it is up to them to do it.

I'm sorry I missed the post where you had emailed them. (I didn't read the whole thread)

Don't feel guilty about your children not seeing them you're doing them a favour.

I found it easier with my DS (I have scars on my body from the abuse I've suffered) explaining to him why I feel it is better that he stays away from her. He also remembers the last day that he saw her she literally screamed at him to shut up. So that made it easy to.

I think you should come straight out and say something along the lines of, "Actually DS, I've been thinking some more about the smacking because it really bothered me, and I want you to know that you and DD are both wonderful children and that neither of you deserved to be treated like that by the GPs. No-one deserves that kind of treatment no matter what they have done."

NoNo, I hope I've caught you before you go. I've lurked on your thread since it started and I'd like to say how amazingly you have dealt with events that have challenged you and your own understanding of yourself and your parents.
Keep meeting things head on. Stay confident in your own judgement. You ARE doing a brilliant job to protect your kids.

NoNo, it's a long hard road that you're on. You've done so well to get this far in this amount of time. Keep strong. Please come back and post on this thread. We're rooting for you!