Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

I feel sick for your children and I hope you can find it within yourself to move your focus away from what YOU think about your parents, and towards how your parents are appearing to other people.

Your parents are so objectionable that strangers called the police on them for how they terrified and brutalized your toddler. IN PUBLIC.

Please think about that.

You know people tend to give gps the benefit of the doubt, etc. Can you imagine how bad it must have been for someone to actually dial 999 over what they saw?

If that is what they do in public, what have you allowed by letting them be alone with your children?

I understand that you hate yourself and think your parents' abuse was warranted. I get that. It is very sad and quite obviously untrue, but I know where you're coming from.

BUT

You can't allow your confused feelings about your parents act as a smokescreen that allows them to terrify and injure your children. If you do, you're being complicit in the abuse, plain and simple. I am sorry to be so blunt.

Children frequently bond strongly with their abusers and seek their attention because they, like you did, "learn" that the abuse is all their fault, so if they can just prove to their abuser that they are "good", then the abuse will stop and they can enjoy that loving bond they crave.

Does that sound familiar?
This dynamic is what makes your children seek out the company of your parents. This is why I find it chilling that you would maintain contact with your parents because your DCs ask after them.
It's also the same dynamic that you use, in your head, to make it "ok" to leave your children in your parents care. If you give your parents what they desire contact with your children I think that on some level, you believe you'll earn your parents' approval and they will eventually start to love you.

You CANNOT allow any more contact between your children and your parents. Not even supervised contact. Do you realise that if this continues, your children will most likely one day be in therapy, sobbing to their therapist, trying to work out what made them so worthless that their mother would arrange contact with their abusive grandparents and then expect them to play happy families?

Please break the cycle of abuse in your family.

I apologise for being so blunt in this post. It's not intended to injure you. I just hear so much denial in your words, and you must break through that in order to protect your children, and hopefully eventually heal yourself.

Please don't for a moment consider taking your children to spend a day with those people.
After what they did to your DD the last time, what message is it going to send her?
That her GPs can scream at her, hit her, frighten and upset her so much that she vomits...and it's fine with you. So it must be that she's a bad girl and deserves to be treated like that.
Even if you're not brave enough to tell them the real reason and have to lie and say you or your DCs are ill, just don't do it.

The police were called by a stranger because of public abuse towards your children by your parents. What happens if your abusive ex finds out? Does he sue to take custody away from you because you continue to put your children in situations where they are around your parents- reported abusers?

Has that crossed your mind? You are not protecting them from further abuse if you let your children around your parents. You cannot control your parents if they start to scream at your kids. And your dad is physically stronger than you. What if he moves to strike one of your kids and you try to stop him. Do you think he would be above pushing you to the floor out of the way? I doubt it.

With a good lawyer, your ex could have a strong case. Sorry to be blunt. The only real solid way to protect your kids is to not let them have contact with their abusers - your parents.

Imagine as well, 10-12 years from now. You tell your kids to do something. They've watched the way your parents treat you... Do you react in shock if your son says, Why should I, you're just a waste of space anyway?

NoNoNo firstly could I congratulate you on your fantastic achievement at uni. Wow, if I were you or you were my daughter, I would be so proud. I would celebrate and revel in your amazingness.

There are two books I would like to recommend to you:

The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. You mother is doing what was done to her, because she is completely cut off from her suffering as a child and so is compelled to repeat it - this time, in a position of power. (Warning: it is very sad and you will hurt).

And: Enough about you, lets talk about me by Les Carter. Or any book on narcissists and how to deal with them.

You need to give up ALL HOPE of having different parents, and accept the reality of them. They really are like this, they really are this oblivious, they really are this cut off from their own humanity and they will never, EVER change. Nothing you can say or do, will change them. In fact, trying to will make them throw up huge defenses. They will NEVER 'see' you or your children. Accept it, and let go of the wishing and hoping....

But do you know what the problem is for us children of toxic parents? That we cower down before them, but we also cower down before everyone else in our lives, from the bus conductor to the person interviewing us for a job. It sounds as though you wandered into the path of and chose another self-absorbed person to marry?

So this is your challenge, to search for and find your sense of self. To learn not to 'protect' your mother from uncomfortable feelings and situations, but to calmly lay down boundaries without fear of any consequences. And then it spills into other aspects of your life, and you will be a calmer, stronger person at the end of it. You CAN change. (Another Good Book: The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists, by Eleanor Payne, who talks about setting boundaries and stating consequences). Your mother might not like or accept your boundaries, but she CAN after a while adjust her behaviour. Payne is very good on this.

I had a dream this morning, that I owned a farm/garden centre type thing and so went to bed early, rose early. A boring little man rang up when I had been asleep for a couple of hours to enquire about poles, and started a long self-absorbed monologue about how experienced he was/his life story. In my dream I said: could you ring me in the morning. Goodbye! and put the phone down and took the jack out of the wall.

I cannot tell you how huge that is for me! That even in my subconscious I am starting to NOT bow down and recognise my needs and know those needs have value and to act on them.
My old self? Would have politely listened and even more: given him the attention and interest he craved at the total expense of my self, because that is what I was trained to do.

So read the books about your reality (your parents are not interested in you, they don't care about you, they don't love you, they never have and they never will; not because they are evil people, but because they CAN'T) NoNo, and start doing the hard work of finding and asserting your reality apart from them. It really hurts, but it will get you out of that horrible dynamic you described so well with your GM/M (Alice Miller) and put you into a new life where you find and are attracted to, more healthy people.

PS are you an only child? Do you have any siblings?

PS sending you love and strength. I hope it is a comfort that people here know and understand what you are saying, and that you are not alone.

VERY IMPORTANT: regarding the police:

this is about boundaries. Do you have the name of the constable/a case number? Ring the police station and ask them to help you in this, that you have thought a bit more on this and that you are very grateful to that member of the public.

That could they go around and 'have a word' with your parents.

Message from society (not involving you) YOUR BEHAVIOUR IS UNACCEPTABLE.

then, you ring them yourself say the police have been around etc. and have a chat of your own about unacceptable behaviour.

In a few years, when you are more strong, you could do this.

sometimes I feel too that they are bullies. But then the next moment I think it is all in my head and I deserve that treatment because I am indeed a waste of space, because only a waste of space would have ended up sharing residence of her small children with someone whom her marriage guidance counsellor described as abusive. I feel like a failure across the board. I feel like I have let my children down ... And I couldn't fight the ruling because I was emotionally devasted by the whole experience (and my dad screaming in my face did not help) .... And then I feel like I deserve that treatment from my parents because I am indeed a waste of space

They ARE bullies. You are their victim, as are your children. And you will all continue to be so until you cut contact. They are messed your head up so well, that you believe YOU are in the wrong. That you believe YOU have it all wrong. You don't & You are not. Thye have ground you down so much that you believe you are a waste of space (do your children think that - no). Family should not be this hard. If, let's say, you had a friend who did this, a friend who treated your dc so badly (in public) that someone called the police, would you continue to leave your dc with her/still be friends with her? I bet the answer to that is no. So why your parents?

Please op, if you do nothing else about it. STOP seeing them.

Christ on a bike.

DO NOT EVER LET THESE MONSTERS NEAR YOUR CHILDREN AGAIN OR YOU WILL BE COMPLICIT IN THEIR ABUSE.
You must never again visit them with your children and they must never again set foot in your house if the children are there.
There must never again be any contact between them and your children.

The time has come when this is no longer about your relationship with your parents, your past, your mother's past, your father's past, or you in general, but about your precious children.

You have to choose -- your parents or your children.

How miserable or how much angst you feel about it does not matter.

PUT YOUR CHILDREN FIRST

You can do the reading and the unpicking after you have sent your parents a letter telling them it is over.

My parents are like this. My advice is to do what I did: cut them out of your life. They will never admit they're wrong, just cut them loose and start living. You are not a waste of space. You are a mother to two children who need you. They don't need the cunts who masquerade as their grandparents around. Maybe Buppy is right, this is making me stabby.

'I will NEVER allow my children to be alone with my parents again. I have no idea how this would work in practice if I they came to visit, as I cannot even trust them alone in a room with one of the children when I am upstairs with another in the bath. It is my daughter's 3rd birthday next week, and we have an arrangement to meet at a theme park in Devon for a family day out. I think that cannot go ahead, as inevitably the older child will need accompanying on a ride which the younger child cannot go on, which will mean leaving one of the children with one of my parents. I cannot do this.'

No, you cannot. You cannot just think it can't go ahead. It absolutely must not go ahead.
You have to sit down and write a formal letter to them, give no explanation, tell them it is all off, that there will not be any more contact between them and your children ever.

'I have no idea how this would work in practice if I they came to visit...'
How do they end up visiting your home?
You need to tell them that is over and finished with too.
You must sit down and type a letter, put it in an envelope and post it, and you must live with the consequences.

The consequences may be painful in the short term and you will have grief to go through, but the consequences will be far worse for your children in the short and the long term if you do not do this painful and very difficult thing.

Stop trying to get your parents to like you, to respect you, to have some connection to you through your children, to approve of you vicariously through approval of your children.

Dearest NoNo. Here is a big, big hug for you. Know that you pain is here to tell you something.

A waste of space doesn't sit down at school and find focus and discipline within herself because her parents don't care and don't provide it, and work consistently to get great exam results.

A waste of space doesn't survive the interview process, doesn't show her worth to a group of strange people asking hard questions, and doesn't get a coveted and hard to get Oxbridge offer.

A waste of space doesn't get a first in her tripos.

A waste of space doesn't get the university prize.

A waste of space would relish the fact that its time to get revenge, and repeat the drama with her own children - but this time she is in power.

A waste of space doesn't find the love and knowledge of suffering within herself to NOT do this to her children.

You are not a waste of space. You have been cowed and you are bullied, but you are not a waste of space.

Yes, there are lots of issues you have to spend time unpicking, but you will see that each of those issues are a strand of a bigger rope: and that is you bowing down before people who don't care about you and who use you in that dynamic of revenge.

You have the brain and the fortitude and the courage I am sure, to start unravelling that rope, teasing out the strands, learning to stand on your own feet, recognising your needs, valueing them and reaching out to other, kinder, more healthy people to meet those [valid] needs.

Could you tell us about Act 2, part 1, ie your husband? Where did you meet him, what attracted you to him, what was he like, how did it end?

Just wanted to send some sympathy to you NoNo and wish you strength in dealing with your awful parents.

As others have said on the thread, it's more than obvious that they conditioned you to accept abusive behavior and you can't see wrong from right as a result. Hopefully your counsellor will be able to help you unpick the issues and set boundaries so you can focus on continuing your success in being a good parent to your own DCs and keeping your parents' baleful influence out of their and your lives.

I can second the recommendation for the Toxic Parents book by Susan Forward. It helped me clear my head on some issues last year when my son was born and my parents let me down hugely. I struggled as well to accept that they were not the good parents I'd created in my mind.

It's hard to accept your parents failed you. You don't want to be some victim or admit that you were 'abused' or mistreated or even just parented badly. It feels so disloyal somehow. But you have to step back and look at what your parents did and accept it for what it was: abuse. I hope your counsellor can help you to do that.

Look at your thread title too: you say that the things your mother said to your DC made your blood run cold.

That was precisely the impulse that made me change the parameters of the relationship with my parents when my son was born. I just couldn't listen to them repeating the negativity I was brought up with around my son. There is something about becoming a parent yourself that makes the protective instinct kick in.

I think yours is being muffled, however, by your desire to please your parents. Listen to your instincts instead and heed that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach: never let your DCs near your parents ever again. Go with your gut feeling.

Thanks all. Have read. Can't post right now. Back later.

The only waste of space i see here is your parents x

Only you can stop being a victim NoNo. Please talk more to your counsellor about making the break from your parents. It may not be for ever if they learn from their actions, but you keep enabling them to continue their abuse. They are clearly dysfunctional. The time has come to stop it.

A big hug for you as it's difficult, however you must think of your children, you are the only one who can protect them and they need you to stand up and do it.

FWIW my DH and his ex had an amicable split and have shared residency over my DSS (we have never been to court - it's always been fine) and I can tell you now he would have no qualms removing my DSS permantly if he thought he was in any danger and his mum was allowing the potentially dangerous situation to continue, as you and your ex had a difficult split (by the sounds of your posts) then be aware that he may choose to do this and would as someone said earlier have a cast iron case to do this.

Thanks all. Have read quickly so have much of the detail, but once again I am overwhelmed by the thoughtfulness of MN.

I have been to the hairdresser's this morning with my DD for her first proper haircut. She was such an angel and all the staff in the hairdressers were so lovely to her. They all told me how wonderful she was, how beautiful, how clever, how well behaved, how talkative. They praised her more in the 45 mins that we were there than my parents have ever praised her, her brother or me put together!

The sad thing is that I thought the people being kind to children was artificial. I always thought it was a big pretence, and for a long time I felt uncomfortable when I was talking to them in an encouraging way, almost as if I was play acting. The reason for that, I guess, is that I never had my parents talk to me in that way...

As for why I married my ex husband - well, the counsellor, whom we saw jointly when our marriage was disintegrating - told me that I had married my mother. His behaviour and attitude towards me was basically the same as my mother's. She said 'I have seen the way he talks to you. I have heard the words he used and the tone of his voice.' In her words, he was a bully and an abuser - an emotional abuser, not a physical one. The appeal of him to me in the early days was, I guess, that he was not a threat emotionally. He was very independent, didn't put demands on me and let me go off doing all the things I enjoyed (running, gym, swimming etc), while he went off and did similar things (running, gym, mountain biking). We co-existed really, each pursuing our own jobs and interests independently. This was safe for me - no-one expecting anything of me. But then when we had kids, suddenly I was more vulnerable, probably because I was suddenly put into a position where I had to parent, having never had a positive parenting role-model. He was still unavailable. And the relationship broke down because everything was then my fault. I suppose I did change and my needs changed, and I needed his support, which he couldn't give me. He withheld affection from me; he talked to me like a piece of shit. He ignored me, he sulked (much like my mother). He went off pursuing his activities and career without giving me permission to do as much as go for a run in the morning before the kids woke up. I was in fear of upsetting him and causing a big scene - much like I lived in fear of my mother's anger and disapproval and her leaving home when I was growing up I guess.

In the end, he told me that there was nothing wrong with him or our relationship. I was a bright woman and all I needed to do was try harder at the relationship and I would realise I was happy. This was at the same time as I was standing on the platform at Earls Court contemplating throwing myself in front of the District Line train rather than getting the train home. I was so depressed that the counsellor I was seeing insisted that I see her alone to try and work out how to make some progress. It was through seeing her that I realised that I could not breathe in the relationship, or survive, and that if I stayed in the relationship, I would end up no use at all to my kids.

So I left - taking them with me. But because, in his eyes, I am an unfit mother (as I have suffered depression and am also obviously rubbish at everything I do in his view, including parenting), he fought me for residence. We ended up with shared residence, with me having more nights a week than him. But the difficulty obviously is that he still has a large element of control, as I need his permission for everything (including getting DD's hair cut, buying new shoes, organising birthday parties) and he withholds it. He won't answer my phone calls, emails, texts. If I ask him questions face-to-face, he refuses to answer. He won't agree to anything without a huge fight and much delay. This makes me anxious.

The whole situation is so hard. The last thing I really need is yet more conflict. But it has to be...

Permission -
How did it end up that you needed to get his permission to go for a run in the morning?
How did it end up that you need his permission now to get your DD's hair cut, new shoes and birthday parties? Is this permission seeking thing reciprocal?

What would happen if you went ahead and didn't ask for permission?

What you have now is a situation where you are really the children's nanny and he is the parent.

You need to go to Women's Aid and get a referral to a really good solicitor (even if you're broke) and renegotiate this crappy agreement. Or ask, ask, ask, here in 'legal matters' and at work for names of really good solicitors with a winning record. Tell people you are looking for one.

But first, you need to end it with your parents and you need to start working on yourself to get yourself in the frame of mind where a situation that involves you asking for permission strikes you as a situation that needs fixing.

Very interesting that you married your mother.

Now. Fast forward 20 years. What do you want for your DD? Not to have married her Dad AND your mother. Your DCs will think this is all normal as they see it both with your relationship with your X and with their GPs.

Send the police around to talk to your parents. Do it. And then contact them and tell them you are stopping contact due to the vile way they treated your DD.

Doing anything else sends them the message that you are ok with what happened.

My guess is that your DD vomited and wet herself out of terror.

If you managed without the witch 4 4months, I'm sure you could cope longer. You'd do your dc a favour by not seeing them as they are projecting their negative comments on2 ur dc, in which turn, history will repeat itself. They will have low self esteem 2 when they are older. My gandmother was awful, and luckily she lived in another country. She used 2 beat my mother when she was younger, and that dented my mum's confidence. I once stood up 2 my grandmother when I was a gobby teen. She soon shut up!

First of all.... ur mother sounds like a spoilt child. It's is a privilege to be in our children's lives.... not a right! YOU are the mother, not HER! She had her child and obviously didn't appreciate u... and by the sounds of it, u are a lovely mum who only wants the best for her kids... which is what any 'normal' mother wants. Would u tolerate a stranger talking to ur kids like that? I'm guessing not... so dont put up with it from anyone... whether blood related or not.

As for ur ex partner... well... does he ask YOU for permission regarding hair cuts, parties etc? I'm guessing not. Do u want ur kids growing up thinking its ok for anyone to push them around and treat them like a doormat? When u have them... do things YOUR way, when he has them, then its down to him how he parents...as long as ur don't put them in any dangerous situation of course.

Ask yourself what good qualities ur own parents actually bring to urs and ur kids lives.... if there are none.... what have u git to lose by ridding urself of them completely??? Start sticking up for urself or things will never change! If u start taking a no nonsense attitude, yeah they may sulk but who cares.... u don't NEED them... they NEED U.... TO CONTROL ! U can do it! U will never be happy until u assert urself as its them making u depressed! X

Sorry you need to put an end to this cycle of viscious toxic behaviour.

Tell your m not to speak to your dc like that, make her aware of what she is doing, pull her up on it everytime she says something foul the next time she comes to yours and if she won't then cut off contact.

You and your dc really don't need that sort of unpleasantness in your lives.

Do your parents bring joy into your life?

So why do you think they will bring joy into your children's lives?

Your children bring joy into your life do not keep exposing them to people who suck every last bit of joy and self esteem away from you.

Your children are more valuable than your parents so protect your children and shut out your parents.

You have done remarkably well to come out of the abusive childhood and marriage and have the maturity to seek help for yourself. The only waste of space I see is the space your parents have in your life which seems to me to be toxic.