Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

I would also press charges to ensure that if your parents go to court to get access to your dcs they won't be successful.

I held back from saying what Lesser said. You really have not made your point.

NoNoNo -- 'fueling the fire'?

What do you think they can do when you tell them you are drawing a line under this relationship and there will be no more contact?

'IF (and it is a big if) I decide to have a more in depth conversation with them at some point, then I can explain my feelings to them if I think it's appropriate. But my feelings aren't valid as far as they are concerned, so I see no point in explaining to them how it made me feel right now. It would just have given them more reason to heap abuse on me, and I don't want that.'

You are right.
Nobody here thinks any differently.
Nobody here has suggested any in depth conversation with your parents about your feelings.

What people are urging you to do is to send an e-mail or a letter saying essentially:
"My relationship with you is now over. Your relationship with my children is also over. Do not contact me again. Do not contact my children again. This is the last you will ever hear from me. Yours etc.,"

You will never have that showdown with your parents.
You will never get any closure.
the best you can hope to do is to write it all down in a long letter and then burn it ceremonially in your back garden.

Do not allow your children to be hurt while you savour your dreams of having them apologise or listen to you. That is never going to happen.

NoNoNo -- it's not a matter of wording.

The bottom line here is that you need this relationship with them. You should think very hard about that.

NoNoNo - firstly I think you need to be congratulated for at least making a step in the right direction - well done :)

However, I think the advice you got (from the counsellor) was utter shit and I would be checking out his/her credentials. No one in their right mind would have advised that if you told them as much as you have told us.

You honestly need to have a good chat to yourself and realise that your parents are not worthy of being in your childrens' lives. When they are older, if they resent contact being cut you can tell them as much as they need to know, to make them see how terrible your parents are. For now, while they are so little, don't say anything until they ask if they are going to see them, then just say 'No, not today/tomorrow (whatever they are talking about)' and fob them off a bit, if DS asks why, then tell him that sometimes grown ups do very naughty things and that what happened when they took them home from swimming was very naughty and nasty and that you will not allow them to do it again' Tell him that Mummy's never get that cross with their children, only other adults (you need to make it clear that you wont send him away even if he is really naughty).

Remember this: i'm far happier on my own without the threat of her constant criticism and disapproval and think on about the damage they are doing to you AND your children.

Please excuse the mistakes in that!! Mummy's FFS.

Lesser was saying that I didn't tell my parents how it made me feel; and that I didn't say I was furious with them. I would argue that there was no point me saying that - because my feelings about the issue are irrelevant, as far as they are concerned.

I just keep coming back to the fact in my heart and my gut that if ANY other people on the planet treated my kids in the way my parents have, I would NEVER want to see them again. I still have others (the counsellor is not the only person suggesting managed contact - several other people I have confided in have also suggested it) telling me that I can and should manage the contact with my parents, as my kids still enjoy seeing their GPs. And I suppose I feel like the main reason why I don't want to manage contact with my parents is because I am so angry with them for what they have done and because I feel like they don't deserve to see my children again. I know that that is the wrong reason. I need to get past my anger at them and break contact with them because it is the right thing for the children; not because dealing with them is too hard for me.

So - damage limitation is in place for now, while I calm down sufficiently to stand up to my parents and make the final break. Believe me - there is NO chance that I will let them back in now.

NoNo I understand this is very difficult for you to do after so many years of being conditioned into accepting their treatment of you.

Please listen to math she is explaining the situation clearly and well.

When you go to bed tonight, imagine all your MN friends holding hands, making a barrier around your home.

Please don't back down. We don't want you to be bullied any more.

Go have a now and celebrate liberation!

I am not expecting an apology, as there won't be one. There never has been in the past for anything that has happened. I am expecting complete silence now. There will be no admission of any fault on their part - ever. So I am not waiting for an apology or a sudden epiphany on their part and olive branches and changed behaviour. That will never happen.

I need to make my stand to them, tho. And I cannot do that now as I am not strong enough. I am hoping that a bit of breathing space will help me grow in confidence, so that I can make the final stand.

You are all going to get frustrated with me, so perhaps this thread has run its course and I had better bow out before you despair of me completely.

I really do appreciate what you have all had to say - and I wish I could be strong enough to enact it now. Sorry that I've let you all down really...

OP well done on sending that email I can see it was A HUGE thing for you to do. Yes it isn't as strongly worded as it could be but for now it is sufficient and your mum and dad can see that things are changing now.
As for the police you could see if they are keeping the incident on file. That way if they make a noise about seeing the dc's you have proof as to why they shouldn't.

If you are worried about losing contact maybe you could keep it limited to b'day and xmas cards or large family gatherings so they have no chance to be alone with the dc's. BUT only if you want to, if you feel you are being barraged into contact tell everyone y to step back and let you decide on your own

I agree with you that your parents wouldn't care how you felt.
But it would be good for you to feel?as someone who hadn't been abused by their parents would feel?that your response was valid and worthy of respect and that you had a right to express it, regardless of how it was received.
And letting out that anger would have helped you to be more forceful, and that would have made an impression on them.
I also suspect (on the basis of my own experience) that sometimes when we say "There would be no point in confronting them because they wouldn't care," it's really an excuse because we care too much how our former abusers would take it and are secretly still scared of upsetting them.
Well done for getting as far as you have, though.

Please don't go Nono - there are a lot of people here who care about you and are virtually holding your hand.

Well done on sending the email. It's a really good step in the right direction - you shouldn't ever have people in the house that you are afraid of leaving your children with. And now your parents will back off, wounded.

You said you're moving. Do they know your new address? If they don't, you can leave it at that if you choose to. They don't know where you are, they won't know your new number. You don't have to confront them, you just have to keep your children safe. And you're doing that. Well done :)

She sounds damaged and poisonous. I wouldnt have her around my kids.

Hold on to your anger. It's about time you got angry. I understand all too well that you might not get angry for yourself, you tell yourself 'I'm an adult, I can take it on the chin' and make accommodations/expose ourselves to hurt but when our own innocent dcs are threatened and in danger then the protective lioness in us comes out.

The email is a good first step. Ok it offers an olive branch to those appalling people. Don't bother. They need to feel the full force of your anger, let it act like a protective barrier between them and your dc, that they cannot breach

And don't tell yourself you are 'getting it wrong', that's a cop out/defeatist. And it isn't true. You have instinctively reacted, knowing you must do something. You have posted here. You have emailed your parents.

And good next step would be to talk to Women's Aid.

And use MN. I can testify the wise women on here are brilliant for support, wit, kicks up the backside born out of the fact they care and un-MNetty hugs

Have a [[[[]]]]]]] from me xx

Nonono, I'm staggered by your progress, congratulations! I may be one of the few, but I think that you judged that email nicely. You have said yourself that you aren't ready to do more, so you have to pace yourself. I hope you're right, in that this has got you some breathing space in which to further arm yourself, so you will be able to deal with them exactly how you wish to when the time comes.

I hope that this will model the behaviour you need to adopt with exh too. Those communications where you state what you are planning and give him a deadline to respond are just right, for the moment

I really hope the time comes soon when you are strong and confident enough in yourself to rid yourself of all 3 of them.

Don't waste time worrying about your kids blaming you for cutting contact with their gps. That is just more of that good ole inability to trust yourself to do the right thing. It'll come, oh yes, it'll come.

Hi NoNoNo - I have just read this thread and would like to express too my sadness for you that you have never been parented in any way but an abusive way. You are amazing for your insight and for these tremendous efforts to break the cycle.

There's a few things that have occured to me through this thread that I'd like to say...

I really liked the metaphor someone used about your mother being a dangerous animal that the children would like to cuddle but you know that you've got to keep them away. Your mother, I would say, is as if brain damaged. We know that abuse of the type she suffered stops certain areas of the brain developing and coming in balance. Her screaming like a banshee, her walking away from situations when you were a child were all she could do with her poorly programmed brain. She can't stop this now, she can't change. She is basically incapable of interpersonal relating.

Your father you say is a volunteer, pillar of the community type, someone who children apparently love. It is thus horribly painful for you that he can't see that your children are wonderful and it plays to your inner voice that if you all just did better you would be loved. I would say to myself that he too has a type of brain damage - he can play the hero around children (fits well with his ex military role) but he cannot take the reality of 360 degree children - and clearly he has his own inner voice working away that it is somehow dangerous to praise those closest too you. You have alluded to a difficult childhood for him, I'm sure you know what went wrong for him. Again, he is a dangerous animal, too late for him to be tamed. There was a thread on here recently where someone mentioned that their unkind ex was a Samaritan volunteer, there was then a whole host of people who came on with examples of selfish and unkind people from their lives who had done volunteer work. Your father seems to be one of these.

I am worried too by those in your life who are suggesting contact with the grandparents for your children, however "managed". I am wondering if these people have ever really experienced abusive adults? I am wondering if your DD really wants to see GPs after what they did to her. Is it possible that your DC pick up on your inner desperation to please your parents and are actually trying to help you by saying they want to see them? I know they are very young but could it be possible?

Moreover, I really worry that your parents might learn to drive a wedge between your DC for their own warped satisfaction if they get to see them together, praise one of them for a time, leaving the other out, and vice versa so they vie for approval of your parents while putting each other down - learning a lesson that putting others down gets you on the path of love and approval (a method of relating that your ex husband appears to have learnt?). I'm sure you have read elsewhere too that if your parents had had two children, they would be ripe for the kind who treat their DC differently, one as golden DC, one as scapegoat DC - not too late to replicate this with their GC sadly.

Whoever that concerned member of the public was who made the report, thank you to them. I see from your email that you are still terrified of your parents - as others have pointed out, the wording does not challenge them - never mind though for now, the main thing is, it keeps them away.

I'm not frustrated with you NoNo.

That E Mail is the very first step to your independent life without their influence.
Your mother will now probably sulk for a few months and you can have some respite, gather your strength and keep them away.

Well done.

We are all different - when you have been ground down all your life you can't suddenly say everything you feel in an instance. It's not easy to stand up to bullies who have dominated you always. Others might have acted differently but they are not in your shoes and they are not you.

But you will get there NoNo. I'm sure you will.

Having read the whole thread, there's one thing that I've thought of. I don't want to this to sound harsh, and anyway obviously I don't know your children. But when you said that your children enjoyed seeing your parents, I wonder if they've got the idea that that's what they're supposed to feel, or maybe they've picked up your coping strategy of keeping emotions under wraps while presenting a smiley face.

Your children won't miss their grandparents. Mine didn't, and contact fizzled out when mine were older than yours, and for reasons much less serious.

It is quite hard when there's people saying: just get those people out of the lives of you and your children. But it isn't easy when you're in the middle of that FOG (see Atilla's post upthread). And I don't think you've been helped by RL people suggesting managed contact because that hasn't worked, as it often doesn't when dealing with abusive parents.

I do applaud you for sending that email. Although it probably won't completely resolve the issue, it is the very important first step. I hope that during the time while your parents are in "sulk" mode, you and your children can enjoy life without all that negativity.

I'm not frustrated with you either No, No and I think your email was absolutely fine - and brave too (I think you can gather I have toxic parents too).

I am one more voice saying I don't think your counsellor gave you valuable advice.

If I had to pick up on one single thing in all your posts it's this - that you say you will monitor their access to the kids to the point of going into the loo with the dc so they your parents are not alone with them. Take a step back and think about that - think about if someone else said that to you about their situation. If you distrust them to that extent (and I think you are right to) then why would you ever let them be with your precious kids again?

Anyway, please do keep posting - you have so much support. You are doing SO WELL.

Well I think it's a big step NoNo, you have made it clear that you are unhappy with their behaviour and made it clear that you don't want to see them in the short term at least.

It's up to you what you do from now on, but I suspect that will probably be enough to get them to back off for a while at least.

Well done, it's hard - I doubt you'll regret it though. You had to make it clear that their relationship with your DC, when they are with you, is in your hands, and that's what your email does, without being too confrontational or personal about it.

I think the email is a very positive step.

You say that your mum will ignore you now, this will give you breathing space to process what's happened and to gather strength to work out what's important, to stay strong, resolute and to protect your DC.

Well done. You took the first step to freedom today.

No frustration here either. This is a marathon and not a sprint. I think everyone is aware of that.

Well done for sending an email to your parents.

Don't misunderstand what people are posting. They are not frustrated with you, its just that from a more objective viewpoint its a bit easier to see the path through the situation - we all understand that its much harder to be the person who has to pick their way along the path tripping over the obstacles on the way. I suspect quite a few of us would love to send an email to your parents telling them what we think of them on your behalf but I don't think that would really help you on your journey.

You have taken a step back from your parents and that is a very important start. Is this the first time you have really taken control and told them to back off out of your life?

I am puzzled by your counsellors approach, did they acknowledge the sheer awfulness of your parents behaviour? Did you tell your counsellor the unvarnished truth or did you minimise it?

As for your children's right to see their GP, that does not override your children's right to be safe from abuse. Do you really want to say to your dd in 10 years time after she has been on the receiving end of yet another of your mother's poisonous attacks " Well I know she treated you so badly as a toddler that a total stranger called the police but I didn't protect you from her because I still thought they added something to your lives"

Lets face it, the only thing your mum has recently added to your DD's life is physically abuse and vomit inducing terror - somehow I don't think she'll miss that much.

You have make a start - one of the hardest things to do is to get the abuser out of your head. You start second guessing your actions to predict their reaction and them you adjust you behaviour to make sure you don't provoke the wrong reaction. For once you have you have done what you think is right without filtering to fit in with their expectations. You need to get into the habit of listening to your voice in your head more and ignoring theirs - they have no rights over you or your thoughts.