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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Did he cross the line or do I need to just pull myself together?

136 replies

pinkcardi · 31/10/2011 18:47

I wonder if you can give me a little perspective? Mostly I just want to tell someone but am too embarrassed to discuss this in RL. Has my dp crossed the line?

This weekend we were at the inlaws and after a fair amount of wine went to bed. The lights were off but I was playing on my phone. He started getting kissing and touching me etc. I didn't fancy it so I crossed my legs, batted him away, moved to the other side of the bed, still good natured. I then turned off the phone and tried to sleep. At which point he persisted. I said that I didn't want to, that his parents were next door and I really didn't want to. But he carried on, not roughly but still not stopping. Anyway, eventually I said it more firmly. He seemed to take this as a sign to take things further......I just lay there a bit in shock. I didn't move at all throughout it, didn't resist him but didn't participate really.

He did say, at one point "if you really don't want to just say" And I don't know why I didn't. Perhaps I felt that it would cause a scene, or that I didn't want to upset him.

I told him when we finished that he'd made me feel like a piece of meat. He was very sorry, and sorry the next morning. I told him that I didn't want to talk about it when he tried to.

I just feel a bit numb. I'm not angry with him. I just wondered what you thought? Is this a big deal, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill (not that I've said anything about it) I just feel a little numb. Normally we are very happy, I love him v. much.

OP posts:
AnonWasAWoman · 01/11/2011 12:10

Hi pink.

I am so sorry to read about what you have been through.

I just wanted to say - I think in any situation where you've had a really nasty surprise about someone you love (as you have), it has to take time. I wondered reading this over if that's why you feel you want to reject the word 'rape', because it is such a shock. But it's like a pebble dropped in water - at the moment you are just seeing the first splash but the rings will keep spreading and spreading. Or that's how I imagine it to myself. So you might well want to keep coming back to this thread, or you might even want to start another one in a month or two months or whenever. Please do do that.

It doesn't have to be a quick process here. You don't have to make a choice between loving your partner (what you feel) and acknowledging he is a rapist. You may end up making that choice further down the line, but don't feel now that you have to rationalize things, or to persuade yourself he didn't do anything so bad. Don't feel we won't support you if you can't accept that word 'rapist' yet either. We'll still all be here whenever you need. Just keep slowly working through it.

I don't know if that helps ... I just know how often I've felt overwhelmed by a situation and not given myself the time to understand my own reactions to it.

I hope you are ok.

PosiesOfPoison · 01/11/2011 12:54

I'm assuming this guidance is church lead.

blackoutthesun · 01/11/2011 13:14

pink - i'm so sorry for what your going through

has your partner made an appt to see a gp yet?

i think that if he really wanted help he would have done it first thing...

Wamster · 01/11/2011 14:08

I just don't see how guidance will work. Doesn't it annoy you that stress is being used as an excuse on his part?
I can see how guidance can be of use to men who do normal negative things when stressed e.g. drinking too much, being irritable, clamming up with their partner, retreating into music and other things.
OK, with these things they can be solvable and couples can get passed them stronger and happier, but rape? Confused. How exactly can a man be counselled not to rape?
The mindset that made him think it OK to do it is too deeply ingrained, he sees you not as a separate human being deserving of your own personal space. How is guidance going to alter that mindset? It's part of his core being.

If you want to know what the right thing to do is (and, believe me, I do know that the right thing is not-initially at least- the easiest path, but the fact remains that it is the right thing to do all the same), do not get married to this man. You are making a huge error in getting wed to him. A huge error. I honestly do not see how he can be 'trained' not to rape you again.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 01/11/2011 14:13

Sorry - also mean to say Bibi, I was with you on your old threads but had no idea things were that bad. :( Hope you and the furry ones are doing well.

AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 14:15

well said, wamster

PeppermintPasty · 01/11/2011 14:19

(Very sorry to hijack, but AF, I assume that other thread that was moved has now gone, as I can't locate it? Do you happen to know if she's ok?)

Sorry for the bad manners pinkcardi Blush

AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 14:22

PP, I will pm you, darlin'

You were on my list, just getting around everybody

Annakin31 · 01/11/2011 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnonWasAWoman · 01/11/2011 17:43

Erm ... making the 'mistake' of failing to listen when the OP clearly refused sex and carrying on is rape. He is therefore a rapist.

What's your difficulty here?

And saying he knew the OP wasn't "keen" in inverted commas is a really nasty way to put it. What makes you think you, or he, can be better judges of what she wanted than she was?

blackoutthesun · 01/11/2011 17:49

erm how can you rape someone by 'mistake'?

the op told him that she didn't want to yet he went ahead

Wamster · 01/11/2011 17:56

I don't think that there is high emotion here at all.
Look at it this way, rape is a crime for a reason. Because it is invading another person's body without their consent leading to feelings of trauma on behalf of the victim.
Any man who fails to take into account or realise that his partner is another human being in their own right, is not worth dealing with.

If the opening post was not about rape, and was about the dp getting pissed and having a consensual one night stand with another woman, it probably would be worthy of saying 'give him another chance' -well, I could at least understand why he would be worth another chance, but this? No way.

Thing is adultery and getting pissed are not crimes. Rape is. How anybody can say that this is a forgivable 'one-off' I simply do not understand.

BibiBatsberg · 01/11/2011 18:13

Hi to Elephants and thank you, yes me and the curries are very well as we come up to our one year anniversary of being just fine by ourselves!

Don't want to fill this thread with my history but elephants saying you didn't know it was that bad for me illustrates a valid point for this topic.

I had no idea it was that bad - all I knew was that i'd lived a half life for years filled with a lot of confusion and emotional pain especially where sex with the ex was concerned.

Ex would do the exact same things - carry on after I'd made it clear I didn't want to/wasn't in the mood but would badger and literally just 'stick it in' if i so much as had my back to him in bed, massages for a sore back etc turned into intercourse within minutes and so on.

The duality of not wanting him to do what he was doing coupled with him saying 'just say if you want me to stop' but carrying on regardless anyway were a total mind-fuck and I too blamed myself. If only I'd said no more strongly/left the bed/the room etc. Thanks to MN I learned it wasn't me at all which is/was a great relief.

Apologies for essay but i have first hand experience of rationalising/explaining incidents as in the OP away not understanding that, despite his protests of 'i can't enjoy myself if your not' he very much could and did have sex with an effectively lifeless body many times.

Keep a very close eye on bedroom behaviour from here on in please OP and make the fuss of your life if your P even remotely goes near the 'oh go on, I'll just have sex on you' route again.

BibiBatsberg · 01/11/2011 18:14

Grin - my curries are very well too but I meant kitties of course, grrrr

ImperialBlether · 01/11/2011 18:57

OP, if you marry him and have children, you might find that if it happens again, you really aren't in a position to just go. You will have to have contact with him for good, because of the children.

I wouldn't risk it. I wonder, too, what would happen if you brought this up in your guidance sessions?

ImperialBlether · 01/11/2011 19:01

I think if there's one thing my divorce has taught me, it's that you have to really, really seriously consider who you marry.

There is more scope for loneliness and pain in a marriage than virtually anywhere else.

I don't believe in taking risks on the person you're going to entrust with your home, your finances, your children and your emotional and sexual life.

Fairenuff · 01/11/2011 20:36

I wonder, too, what would happen if you brought this up in your guidance sessions

This is an excellent suggestion imo. Go back to pre-wedding guidance (even if it's on your own) and tell them you are having second thoughts because . . . and explain what happened. Just give them the facts without 'blaming' anyone and see what they say:

I said I didn't feel like it, told him to leave me alone, he started having sex with me anyway and said tell me if you want me to stop. I felt (shocked/numb/say how you felt) and didn't say anything. Afterwards I wished I had.

Annakin31 · 02/11/2011 07:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnonWasAWoman · 02/11/2011 08:23

No, you weren't. If you'd bothered trying, you'd not have claimed it could be a 'mistake' an he wasn't a rapist. Not helpful.

The poor OP is having enough to do to get her mind round the fact someone she loves has done something like this to her. She doesn't need more people playing devil's advocate for her DH, she needs to learn to be her own advocate.

I'm not going to argue this with you, it's not the right place. This should be a thread of support for pink.

Fairenuff · 02/11/2011 08:27

Annakin

Where are the flying insults? I haven't seen any. Unless you mean calling a man who has sex with a woman against her will a rapist is insulting to him? Perhaps you would prefer the term sexual abuse or actual bodily harm.

It doesn't matter what it is called. What matters are his actions and how the OP feels about it. She is able to acknowledge to herself that she did not want to have sex on that occasion but he went ahead anyway. So far, she is not ready to think about the deeper implications. It will take time.

By the way, the first time is always an isolated incident. Until the second, third and so on. A person does not have to be a serial abuser before you can call it rape.

SolidGoldVampireBat · 02/11/2011 10:05

Someone else asked if the guidance was church-related. Pink, is this man a member of a religion that makes a big noise about 'traditional' values? If so, you need to end the relationship, because what this translates to in his case is an unshakeable conviction that you are an object he owns and you exist to meet his needs. Therefore he will continue having sex on you whenever he feels like it, because what you think simply doesn't matter.

Jux · 02/11/2011 10:20

Pinkcardi, I think these days even Catholics take a very dim view of non-consensual sex in marriage. What religion is it? Are you both members of the church, or just your dp?

Original poster
pinkcardi · 02/11/2011 10:33

Agh, just written and lost a message. Will rewrite in brief:

The guidance was structured around an independant questionnaire and wasn't really 'guidance' just a chance for us to talk. The vicar actually said that it wasn't her role to tell us what we should and shouldn't do. We have beliefs but don't regularly attend church. In fact I've have stronger beliefs than he.

Annakin - thank you for your post as yes, this is what happened. Sometimes it takes a few kisses etc to get into the mood. He entirely misread the situation, he crossed the line and was in the wrong. He knows this and is absolutely devestated at what he did, but it was a mistake/error of judgement rather than a pattern of behaviour. I am keen to make things work, but not at my own expense. He and I both know that I'll leave it it ever happens again (children or no children)

Without meaning to imflame things, I know why you are using the 'r' word, I really do. But I believe I have experienced 'r' in the past, and what happened on Sat wasn't the same. It wasn't nice and it was wrong, but to me it simply isn't comparable with what happened previously (random man when young, in no way related to current situation)

OP posts:
Original poster
pinkcardi · 02/11/2011 10:36

I'm not saying this to inflame, or to elicit sympathy, but just to explain how I truely believe this was a mistake and how I can't call it what you are as to me it isn't the same thing.

OP posts:
Proudnscary · 02/11/2011 11:09

Pinkcardi, I don't think you have to justify yourself anymore on here. There has been lots of very well-meaning advice and you have clearly listened and taken it in. Now you are free to make your own decisions without having to feel you need to appease and explain yourself anymore than you have already done so!

If you find (and I hope not) that you are wrong about this being a one off then you know where Mumsnet is and you will be given support and counsel if you want it.

I hope others will see that they have said what they felt they had to say, but that to keep pressing on would be counter productive.

x