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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Did he cross the line or do I need to just pull myself together?

136 replies

pinkcardi · 31/10/2011 18:47

I wonder if you can give me a little perspective? Mostly I just want to tell someone but am too embarrassed to discuss this in RL. Has my dp crossed the line?

This weekend we were at the inlaws and after a fair amount of wine went to bed. The lights were off but I was playing on my phone. He started getting kissing and touching me etc. I didn't fancy it so I crossed my legs, batted him away, moved to the other side of the bed, still good natured. I then turned off the phone and tried to sleep. At which point he persisted. I said that I didn't want to, that his parents were next door and I really didn't want to. But he carried on, not roughly but still not stopping. Anyway, eventually I said it more firmly. He seemed to take this as a sign to take things further......I just lay there a bit in shock. I didn't move at all throughout it, didn't resist him but didn't participate really.

He did say, at one point "if you really don't want to just say" And I don't know why I didn't. Perhaps I felt that it would cause a scene, or that I didn't want to upset him.

I told him when we finished that he'd made me feel like a piece of meat. He was very sorry, and sorry the next morning. I told him that I didn't want to talk about it when he tried to.

I just feel a bit numb. I'm not angry with him. I just wondered what you thought? Is this a big deal, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill (not that I've said anything about it) I just feel a little numb. Normally we are very happy, I love him v. much.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 10:37

you are of course, entitled to call it what you like, as is pink

bellsring · 01/11/2011 10:40

atosillis - I am very familiar with the kind of character your H is. Has anything improved then in the way he treats you now then?

NunTheWiser · 01/11/2011 10:40

He's a rapist, OP. Sad

He took advantage of the fact that alcohol and proximity to your parents meant you were unlikely to protest too loudly. He ignored your refusal to consent. He's a rapist.

I'm so sorry, you must be all over the place at the moment. He has made you feel this way so don't blame yourself in any way.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 01/11/2011 10:40

OP, you said a few posts back that you didn't want us all to think you're being abused. I think that you're the one who doesn't want to think you're being abused. And that's OK: this is such a huge mental step that you're protecting yourself by refusing to take it, for the time being. It's completely understandable; denial is a protective mechanism, and a person can only shed it when they're ready.

A man who acted like your partner did is one who thinks that that's what women are for. He views you as something functional - an object to serve his interests - rather than as a human being in your own right, deserving of respect and empathy. Marriage, pregnancy, childbirth are unconsciously viewed by this kind of man as further bonds that hold you captive to him and allow him to show you less and less respect.

Once you set the precedent of accepting sex without consent, the barriers of acceptable behaviour have been pushed back. Those barriers won't spring back to where they were before, as you hope they will. This wasn't a blip just because you want it to have been one. The limits of acceptable behaviour in your relationship have now shifted for good. And over time, they will continue to be pushed back, and pushed back, until you finally can take no more. By that point, though, you will have been hugely depleted and weakened.

Don't leave it too long to affirm your self and your needs. Only you can protect yourself.

atosilis · 01/11/2011 10:46

Yes Bellsring, much better. Sometimes I'm very sorry I'm not so nice to him, he just wanted a 1950's style wife. He says how much I've changed. He equates sex to love and if I'm not having sex, then I don't love him. He does now feel genuinely unloved and gets very upset (sad sometimes, cross others).

Well said ItsMeAnd....

atosilis · 01/11/2011 10:47

Oops, better get on with work - Good luck Pink :-)

DitaVonCheese · 01/11/2011 10:50

Hope you're OK OP.

It's been a while since I studied law so I may have this wrong, but IIRC you have to give consent specifically to each separate sexual act. In other words, the onus wasn't on you to make it clear to him that he didn't have your consent - the onus was on him to make sure that he DID.

From a legal POV this would certainly be rape. (It is surprising how much of my professional life I spent telling women that they had actually been raped. If you consent because he says he'll hit or stab you or hurt someone else, then that is also rape. I don't miss those days.)

AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 10:51

atosilis...what an inadequate man you are married to

bellsring · 01/11/2011 10:52

Did Pink really have to resort to getting out of the bed to stop her fiance continuing? What if she couldn't physically shift him off her? And, he will have been aware that his parents were in the next room and she felt a bit inhibited at being too vocal.

If your fiance is absolutely fine the rest of the time, this is probably why this behaviour has come as a bolt out of the blue for you and you have been able to talk about it.

The rot really sets in when this behaviour happens after other bad behaviour has been slowly developing over a long period; then, it is mixed up with all the other bad stuff, and it is yet another self-esteem eroding experience. Even then, you still feel violated and disrespected, but are not so able to stand back and say 'hold on - this didn't make me feel nice. Don't do it again!'.

Pink - you still need to make it clear to him, if you felt not nice/numb afterwards that it's unacceptable.

Jux · 01/11/2011 10:55

What's a wife?
Washing
Ironing
Fucking and
Everything

That's a joke dh's best mate told. Tell it to your fiancé. If he laughs then that will tell you quite a lot about him.

bellsring · 01/11/2011 10:56

They had both been drinking. Have you tried to shift a drunk man off of you. They're very heavy. But drink is no excuse.

PosiesOfPoison · 01/11/2011 11:01

When does sex without consent become rape? The moment of penetration in my book. It doesn't become rape with absolute malice, it doesn't become rape with intention to cause harm, it is rape when you neither feel or give consent.

atosilis. You are married to a rapist, not an entitled thoughtless man (although I suspect he's that too), a rapist.

MakesCakesWhenStressed · 01/11/2011 11:05

Just wanted to offer my support, say I understand your confusion, but to look very very carefully at the other aspects of your relationship and make sure you don;t end up sliding in deeper to something that isn;t good for you.
xxx

bellsring · 01/11/2011 11:07

The trouble with men of this mindset is that when they're married, they say things like 'you are not going to deny me my conjugal rights, are you!'

wannaBe · 01/11/2011 11:11

I think we've probably all been in a situation where our partners have been a bit too over persistent in wanting sex. But the difference lies in how they respond when you make it clear you're not up for it.

My dh has a higher sex drive than I do, and thus he has to face rejection by me on occasion. But I can categorically state that he would never, ever force me to do anything that I didn't want to. To the extent that I know he would stop even if we were part way through and I didn't want to carry on. No means no and that's how it should be - and I wouldn't have it any other way. If my dh went ahead anyway that would completely obliterate any trust I had.

op -

Nobody wants to be told that their partner is a rapist. And especially if it is someone they have been with for years and who has previously never shown such trates.

It is entirely possible that this was a completely one off incident and is totally out of character, that he totally regrets what he did and that it will never happen again.

But that doesn't mean that it should be trivialised or that he shouldn't be made aware of just how unacceptable it was and how much you feel violated by it.

And if alcohol makes him behave like this then he needs to curb his drinking. Even if he rarely drinks, if on the rare occasions that he does he loses control of himself to the detriment of his partner then he needs to stop drinking.

The overwhelming thing here is that you are not at all responsible for what happened.

Regardless of whether it was a one off or not, your dp needs to acknowledge that the blame is all his, and that it is entirely down to him reassure you that he is deeply remorseful and that it will never happen again.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 01/11/2011 11:12

I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going through, PinkCardi :(

How are you doing today?

I am wondering if part of the reason you didn't say "no" when he finally asked (belatedly looking to cover his back) midway through, was because if you had done it would have made it crystal clear that he was raping you. To yourself, I mean. It doesn't mean you gave consent in any way.

heleninazombiecart · 01/11/2011 11:18

OP whether you can face calling it rape or not, it was sex without your consent. There are no mitigations. You had already said you didn't want to and he should have left it at that. I suspect you assumed he would stop and by the time your brain caught up with the fact that he actually penetrated you you, its already happened.

No excuses, he knew you didn't want to and carried on. You didn't have to repeat it verbally yet again. You really have to talk to him about this and think very, very carefully about whether you can have a future with this man.

bellsring · 01/11/2011 11:36

OP, did you feel numb and shocked when he carried on - like you had become detached from your body?

TechnoViking · 01/11/2011 11:41

What worries me, if I'm reading OP right, is this.

He has impotency issues and only seems to be able to keep it up if he's "taking" his wife without her consent. If I am reading that right, that is scary.

PosiesOfPoison · 01/11/2011 11:43

Techno, I think you've hit upon something scary there. Sad

Original poster
pinkcardi · 01/11/2011 11:45

Morning everyone. Thank you for your messages which mean a lot.

Atosilis - I am so sorry for what you have been through. It has truely shocked me and I hope that you are as ok as you can be.

Snailoon - You post has really captured what I feel like. Although I can see that he entirely crossed the line this is so out of character that I couldn't get my head around it. If he had been some abusive brute it would make more sense somehow!

We had a long talk last night. I wrote down what you suggested I say, and I said it all. I won't give you a blow by blow account of what was said, but he truely listened and apologised (again) and knows 100% that he was in the wrong. No excuses etc, no making it my fault. I am going to ask him to get help for his problem, I think he will benefit from talking to someone, and we will benefit too.

I know some of you won't believe me but our relationship is normally so strong. We've had marriage guidance as part of our preparations and the results were very positive. He's caring and kind, considerate and generous. He looks after me when I need it, but is in no way controlling. We normally have very open and honest communication. I do want to make this work. I can assure you that if there is even one more merest hint of a similar occurance I'll be out of the relationship asap, no doubt about it.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 11:51

All the best, pink

when you say he will "get help" do you mean with his performance issues ?

step back for a few days and see if he makes that appt without being reminded

that will tell you a lot

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 01/11/2011 11:51

Well done OP, and thanks for coming back and updating. It's great that you were able to express your views, and that he was willing to listen and accept responsibility for his actions. I hope he does take the next steps you want him to re: counseling.

I just wanted to point out that "a similar occurrence" might not be in the bedroom: it could be other disrespectful behaviour such as putting down your achievements or appearance, or other entitled behaviour such as road-rage, etc. Anything like that would also point to an entitled, controlling mindset.

Original poster
pinkcardi · 01/11/2011 11:55

Yes, get help for those issues. He worries about it happening, but actually physically there is nothing really wrong and 95% of the time there isn't an issue. Wierd!

I believe that what happened this weekend will crop up in those discussions. I'll ask him but not prompt, see what he does. Am certainly taking a small step back from things at the moment. Need to get my head together.

Thanks again.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 01/11/2011 11:59

pink, in your chat last evening, did the issue of what techno, and also myself upthread, mentioned come up at all ?

that pushing on without consent "helped" him to stay hard ?

is he (or you) not concerned about what that might mean ?

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