Am I abusive?

[amiabusive]

DP has said I am.
I think I am not very nice. Don't know what to do about it. Think maybe I shouldn't have relationships at all, but too late now as I have 2 dcs so at least have to be their mother whatever happens and that is a relationship.

dc1 is 2, dc2 is 5 months. I am shattered, bfing all night and busy all day, you know how it is. DP can be very casual about my time and energy sometimes and I get snappy. I mean he just expects me to do things that most women probably do but I think, for instance, when we are all out, "why are you asking me where the wipes are:? and when I tell you, why can you never find them? Why would it be such a FUCKING DISASTER if I get 5 minutes doing nothing in a cafe? Why do I always have to be arse in the air rummaging for something for you?" anyway as you can see I am angry or something, I don't know, and although I try not to let it out I keep failing.

DP is nice really, relatively, but I feel ... I don't know.

I am being treated for PND but it isn't helping and it is just another thing that can be used to discredit me.

Anyway. When I am feeling self-pitying I think: well I gave birth, my body is obliterated, I am knackered, I am breastfeeding day and night, I am actually pretty fukcing desperate with misery a lot of the time, just back off and cut me some slack, if you can't actually help me could you moan a little less about how I am not sunshine and light. When I am being more self critical I hear what he is saying about my temper and think he is right, I am nasty and mood swingy, but manage to put a bright face on for others, I am being abusive.

Sometimes it seems like either way we have to break up, either because I am abusive or because I am being constantly criticised and accused of abuse while miserable, and that is no way to live.
Sometimes it seems like it would be crazy to break up over a tiny thing like he thinks I am a piece of shit.
Actually I think I am a piece of shit.

Anyway sorry about long post. Just to be concise at the end:

how do you know if you are abusive?
If you are what can you do?

Rita, you're right, this is minor stuff. I need to find non confrontational ways of pushing back though because my previous modus operandi was something to the effect of: it's minor, I'll just do it. and it doesn't work for me, it all adds up and makes me feel like I am scurrying about all the time.
And now I am hyper sensitive. If he says "it's hot" I will be wondering what he expects me to do about it.

I think "non confrontational ways of pushing back" is exactly what you need. Don't do it for him, don't row about it - expect (tell) him to do it.

Have you thought about some counselling? Your G.P might be able to refer you. It might give you the chance to work through some of these feelings and hopefully give you some perspective.

beatenbyayellowteacup, I am pretty sure I am depressed and am being treated for it, I think anger is a part of this (in my case) and not a mitigating factor. I am angry because I feel backed into a corner and I don't feel I have the resources to respond positively, creatively or flexibly to things that are thrown at me, however small. I feel like a 2 year old who shouts "NO!" reflexively in case they are being manipulated into something they are not going to like. and feels ignored and shouts all the louder.

DP says I have been conditioned by my family into thinking everyone is having a go at me when they are not.

I don't think you sound abusive and possibly not even depressed, more exhausted and unsupported by your partner. I think counseling or assertiveness training would be a good idea so you dont end up feeling guilty for asking your partner to do childcare/housework etc.

Ok but anger is a step out of depression. It gives you the strength to say "No" which is what you need right now.

It's interesting that you use the example of a 2 year old being manipulated into something that they are not going to like.

From what you have posted you have every right to think that someone is having a go at you when they are not. I am still concerned about your DP's behaviour towards you. Did you feel this way before you had kids or has this started more recently?

Oh my God, are you me? Have I been sleep m'ning?

Seriously, you have managed to put into words exactly how I feel about myself right now. My DDs Are 3yo and 6mo and, like you, I am exhausted, forever planning the next boring task and sick of being the one who never gets a break. Thank you for helping me understand why I have been so pissy to live with.

Also, fantastic idea to take bumbo to restaurants.

this thread has been so reassuring to know that there are so many other mums out there who feel the same way and that I am not an unreasonable psycho...

OP, just referring to the pizza incident, i can definitely see myself & DP having the same sort of interaction. Re: taking the bumbo in the first place, you think "duh, it's just common sense ", but then you don't want to be nagging, so go along with what DP says and then you realise you were right all along. Then on top of that, you have even more to do (ie literally holding the baby) due to his bad planning. Then to add insult to injury, DP/DH will be more worried about inconvenience to other people (ie the waitress in this scenario) than trying to make things easier for you.

It is the planning and thinking 5 steps ahead which is one of the most exhausting things about being a mum. You may be sitting there bfing or something, and it may to the outside world look like you are "doing nothing" but your mind is just turbo charged. Then you get 5 minute slots and constant interruptions to try and put into place things which are in your mental to do list, and it is so much easier to just do it yourself rather than (drag DP away from the computer / garage ); explain it and then have it done the wrong way anyway...

I think DHs instinctively know that mums will inevitably pick up the slack, because otherwise the DCs will suffer. Speaking to friends in RL, this is so common. You do feel like you are doing 80% of the childcare and the ultimate responsibility falls to you, because fathers seem to have this magical ability to just tune out to their DCs needs unless specifically nagged told by their DWs.

sorry long rambling post, but just wanted to say i feel your pain, OP

DP says I have been conditioned by my family into thinking everyone is having a go at me when they are not

OP, i would say however that there may be some truth in this statement. I definitely become oversensitive to comments made by DP and think he is blaming me for something, when actually he is just making some random comment eg
DP "i haven't had my my dinner yet"
Me "that's not my fault" < thinking he thinks i should have dished it up and laid it on the table for him >

which i do most of the time, and don't mind as i am doing mine anyway. but the reality is in that instance DP was just busy and hadn't helped himself to something out of the fridge yet.

the above scenario is something which could just as easily have been said between my parents 30 years ago,so it is useful to to see where some of this stuff comes from.

So I/we do take on stuff which we don't need to worry about but it is difficult to get a perspective on it when you are tired have 2 DCs to look after.

Going back to other posters would really second getting your anaemia levels checked out. I didn't think iron was that important but it really did transform me, and if your levels are low it will give you the boost your need to put other things in place.

Have been where you are OP, twice, although my DH was more supportive. Just going to chuck out some ideas.

Breastfeeding means that you will pretty much be doing all the work at night until you stop. Don't underestimate the impact of this. Expressing is knackering and unrealistic unless the baby is used to bottles from the start. After six months I could never express enough (even using the best electric pumps) for even one feed. I am stopping b-feeding DD2 (13 months) for the sake of my mental health and so that DH can share the nightwork, I was on my knees and felt depressed. We have stopped feeds at night first and DH dealt with the first, horrible 4 or 5 nights (whilst on annual leave).

Until you stop feeding, your DP could take the baby to a different room from 6am and your eldest DC could go to DP in the mornings too, so that you can get some sleep then. When the baby is 6 months maybe he could give breakfast to both DC.

After you do stop feeding, your DP could do 3 of 7 nights every week. Don't take any crap about him needing rest or having to work: you have to look after the DC and regain your health.

Does your DP do 50% of the childcare / housework / shopping etc. ? If not, then this is part of the problem and changing it could help you a lot.

Instead of your DP's proposal for you to take 48 hours off (as you say, not possible when b-feeding), he could have both DC for the entire weekend while you remain at home but do what you wish (sleep, have long bath, go for a walk or coffee or to shops locally), and he brings the baby to you when s/he needs to feed. He would do absolutely everything else in terms of childcare, housework, cooking etc (as if you weren't there). Then, after the first time, he could do this for one day, say, every two or three weeks. Your eldest DC could just be told that mummy is tired or ill and resting.

In the evenings in the week (assuming your DP works), you could eat with the DC and DP sort himself out later (unless, of course, you enjoy cooking / eating with your DP or your DP cooks). This is good for energy levels, might cheer you up at a peak argument time (evenings when partner gets in) and reduces washing up etc. in the evenings.

Your DP could learn to drive. Driving while sleep-deprived and breastfeeding is really hard, there're days when I don't as feel it wouldn't be safe. Even if money is a problem, make driving lessons a priority, maybe he has a mate who could help teach him in exchange for something.

Avoid outings as a family that are stressful. If meals out are stressful, save that for times when you have a babysitter, do simple stuff like park, soft play or whatever instead.

If you have anyone who can babysit for a couple of hours in the day, go for lunch or coffee with DP. Better than evening meal out when sleep-deprived.

Do you have mum friends to moan with? I didn't have this with DD1 but do with DD2 and it has made a big difference. Often, even people who are seemingly "everything is great" on the surface will swap tales and complain about things if you open up! Helps to get stuff off your chest. ALL the mums I know with 2 DC under 3 are struggling, and all have good and bad days. The ones who struggle the most are, in general, the ones whose partners do less of the work.

Sorry this is long, just trying to think what might help.

Oh, and with respect to looking for a new place to rent, perhaps to save time and effort just one of you could go to look at places at a time taking just one DC, e.g. your DP takes eldest, you take the baby, whilst the other one gets stuff done at home.

Another idea: as someone else says, keep a bag made up with everything needed for outings with the DC, check it's still fully stocked every other evening or something. Then if your DP asks for something, say "it's in the bag and should go back into the bag". If it's not in the bag then he has to find whatever it is himself. When you're out, he can carry the bag (we have a manly-looking changing bag!)

You aren't horrible, you're just lacking confidence, tired, physically and emotionally, you need to have more sympathy for your self before you will see this from him.

You're not able to be your best at the moment because of the BF, sleepless nights and general day to day drudgery, but that doesn't mean you're an out and out horrible person, you have to stop labeling your self and affirm to you your good qualities, humility, ability to bring human life in to the world, be gentle with your self and good luck.

it sounds like both of you are at the end of your tether - small things are firing up a deeper resentment - rather than a blame game, getting hurt at the others apparent anger/ disinterest/ lack of caring - can you sit down with him when you are not arguing, try to speak to him about your own hurt but with the awareness that he may be hurting too? It's not possible to know from your posts on a website whether he is doing enough / pulling his weight - only you know that.

But try to stop the cycle of rows - there is a good book called Anger, by a buddhist monk called Tich nAch hanh. he talks about how to deal with anger in relationships in a productive way - make space each week to sit and talk about your anger with each other - but use non violent communication methods ie. 'when you say X i FEEL x' rather than 'you always do this/ or you make me feel this...'....

After your pizza incident I'm convinced my dh is a bigamist. That would be exactly what would happen to us and if I asked him what he meant his recollection of events would be that he was utterly reasonable and I was being grumpy. The only way to deal with this if you want to get out of the cycle of bickering is to sigh loudly and do not interact with him or look puzzled when he starts . If he has to repeat himself even he should get how unreasonable and idiotic he sounds some of the time.
I laughed to myself when you said about all the other mothers being back to normal and running about in their size tens. I used to think this as well and I was just rubbish - until I went to a bfing group where everyone looked and felt like me. Turned out 90% of those skipping off to the gym and having a shower every day were ffing and getting at least some respite.
If he won't listen to you about how horrible it is for you would he listen to someone else? A parent? A hv? A GP? He needs to get his head round the fact that until things are easier he will have to start being more supportive if he doesn't want things to spiral out of control.
I also agree with others that you need some practical solutions to how tired you are. I have to say my life changed immeasurably when I gave up bfing at night feeds and dh could do feeds every other night- one of the pluses was didn't have the energy to fight so much.
Be kind to yourself.

Oh you poor girl. This man is being a complete craphead and needs pulling up sharply. Right now, while you are BFing, he needs to put you first. Unfortunately a lot of men still think that actually putting a woman's needs ahead of their own, even for a short time, is an outrageous unreasonable demand, because in their eyes women exist for men's benefit.
Have a serious think about how your relationship functioned before you had DC - was this man kind, supportive, reasonable, affectionate then? or only when he got his own way? Sometimes it's hard to detect what a selfish sexist a man is until you have DC and suddenly he is not your main priority. Sometimes, to be fair, a man who was previously a good'un slips unthinkingly into expecting the woman to carry the entire load when the first baby arrives, and can be taught better sense.
If you think there is hope for your H, be calm and firm about what you want. If he says no, you won't need the bumbo, say 'Yes we will, H, remember what happened last time and please put it in the car.' Remember he is NOT IN CHARGE. YOu get to say what you need and he gets to fucking well do what you say, for the moment.

I feel for you so much. I have been there, and am still there when a bad day comes round again.

There's lots of good advice above. Just wanted to say that from my experience it will get baby as the DCs grow up and the BFing and sleep deprivation gradually improve. However, it might be a long haul. My youngest is 2.8 and it's only since he was about 2.5 that I can feel myself / ourselves getting back on track (though youngest was a CRAP sleeper until about 2.3 - am sure would have improved faster otherwise). Though there has been a fiar bit of damage to the relationship in the process, we can both now see how/why we used to have fun together, which gives some hope.

Make allowances for yourself. It is bloody hard, relentless work.

it will get better, not it will get baby...

sorry if you've said this already, but maybe it's not PND, maybe your just overworked and your dh isn't as helpful as you think?

i say this because a dear friend of mine has just had a second baby, and diagnosed with PND, but I just don't think it is, she's exhausted and her 2 yr old has some sort of high functioning ASD and her husband is just helpless all the time. He's nice, but he can't change anyone's nappy, do the dishes, deal with guests, cook, clean or his own laundry. I am however just a friend, so cannot really over step my boundary and tell her exactly what I think.

I really feel for you and want to give you a big hug. I don't know what to say about you and your dp. He sounds a bit of a drama queen to me and you need to tell him how you're feeling. I don't think you're abusive either just bloody knackered.
The only thing I can tell you is that i found breastfeeding exhausting. I think the hormone that's supposed to "relax" you was working overtime. I'd feed ds then have such overwhelming tiredness. A couple of times I fell asleep while feeding and I was terrified I'd drop him. When I decided to mix feed I felt relieved and my energy levels went up. I was still tired but the borderline pnd went and felt more able to cope. I don't know the answer to this I'm afraid but it sounds like this may be a possibility for you too? I may be wrong but this is just my experience x

How are you doing today?
If it's any consolation I was already having to imagine the film crew by 8am as I was feeling so snappy and sweary with my 3 little darlings. I get so angry at being hounded all the time. I think that anger can be a symptom of depression...
I'm shoving piles of clothes and mess in a cupboard today so I can sit down for a bit while the youngest sleeps. Do you get any respite in the day eg naptime? x

I think your H needs educating.

Educating about the effect of PND on a woman and what he could do to help you get better.
Educating about looking children, his own children. A few times on this thread you have referring to times when you said 'we should do X', he didn't want to and the you were dealing with the consequences. Or you stand your ground and then you obvioulsy became the 'baddy'.

Perhaps you could do one or both of those 2 things.

• Leaving him alone with dc1 for a whole week end. And again. And then as soon as you can (weaning, bottle feeding ...) leaving him with both dcs. Serioulsy, he looks like he has no idea of what going out with 2 young dcs means, probably he never had to do it and deal with the consequences if when he doesn't think 5 step ahead.

• Learn to become passive. Don't answer to any of his comment. Did he say 'the pushchair is in the way' as a way to tell you to do something about it (Passive aggressive way) or just as a comment in passing? Who knows. but you can stay neutral and just say 'Yes it might be in the way' or 'I'm not sure. We'll see' and then wait. The same with his issue with holding the baby. 'I am struggling to eat my pizza' shouldn't send you into a 'I am holding the baby for you' whilst ressenting it because then you can't eat. but just a comment 'Oh yes, I know it is difficult isn't it? I will hold her when I have finished' and then that's it. He took the decision not to take a seat for his dc2. He is the one to deal with consequences. But if you highlight his mistakes 'Well I told you that we should have taken the bumbo' then it is too easy for him to say you are aggressive/take things the wrong way etc... And then again it is NOT his fault but yours....

Sorry you're feeling so .

I very much doubt you're abusive. Abusers rarely feel enough guilt to ask the question.

From the perspective of your having PND, I think one of the main problems in your relationship is not so much the physical demands of BF-ing and caring for DC (though they are important), but the fact that all the organisation for pretty much everything rests on your shoulders. It's all well and good having someone who willingly helps out when asked, but you need someone to recognise what needs doing without being asked - otherwise you simply have another child, not a DH who's an equal partner, and you're still expending far more energy than him simply by thinking about it all. Id say your anger at things like the wipes incident you mention in your OP is a typical manifestation of this.

Can I suggest this book for both you and your DH to read. It explains wonderfully why your DH needs to recognise what you're doing far more and help out in more practical, small and daily ways, rather than making nice but unhelpful gestures like offers of weekends away.

I really believe that one of the reasons PND is so prevalent is because so many women are incredible at juggling and taking on more than their fair share of domestic chores, but once a new baby is thrown into the mix things become a whole lot harder, and if the balance is unequal, cracks start to show. We're all only human after all. A decent DH will step up to the mark at this point. Obviously some PND is very serious and continues to be so even with the best partner in the world, but very many are simply a normal response to having too much asked of any woman.

Great points from everyone.

especially:

yes Romilly, what bugged me was my lowly position beneath EVERYONE IN THE WORLD INCLUDING THE WAITRESS. I mean I don't want to get in her way, but if you care about making her life easier so much, you can offer her some of your portion of convenience instead of dishing out all of mine. To complete strangers.

yes, I do perhaps hear "sort this" when the person might be sometimes just making an observation and I definitely get this from my mum. One to watch.

Definitely sitting back and being passive is something to work on too. I am not a patient person so my instinct is always to get up and make the issue go away, close it down asap. It will be a learning to me to sit and go broken record instead ("they're in the bag. Aren't they in the bag? have another look in the bag. look again, remember the colour of the packet has changed. Really? I did put them in the bag." etc) but this is something I will try and remember to do. Tedium better than exhaustion. And keep SMILING instead of saying what I want to, something like "Still in the bloody bag, don't talk to me about it again unless you have good evidence that they have been abducted by aliens" which is always tempting. (I don't actually say things this sarcastic btw, they just go through my head)

I've started a bit of blw with dc2 - 12 days younger than 6 months but she is so up for it (I know, a classic mn howler) and she is TROUGHING into her food, so I hope this may ease the burden a little in time,

Thank you all a million for all the good stuff on here. I really appreciate it. I have found this so reassuring and there's lots of good practical stuff too.

I will report back if that's ok. thanks so much all

sunshine - wifework on order already from the library ;)