Am I abusive?

[amiabusive]

DP has said I am.
I think I am not very nice. Don't know what to do about it. Think maybe I shouldn't have relationships at all, but too late now as I have 2 dcs so at least have to be their mother whatever happens and that is a relationship.

dc1 is 2, dc2 is 5 months. I am shattered, bfing all night and busy all day, you know how it is. DP can be very casual about my time and energy sometimes and I get snappy. I mean he just expects me to do things that most women probably do but I think, for instance, when we are all out, "why are you asking me where the wipes are:? and when I tell you, why can you never find them? Why would it be such a FUCKING DISASTER if I get 5 minutes doing nothing in a cafe? Why do I always have to be arse in the air rummaging for something for you?" anyway as you can see I am angry or something, I don't know, and although I try not to let it out I keep failing.

DP is nice really, relatively, but I feel ... I don't know.

I am being treated for PND but it isn't helping and it is just another thing that can be used to discredit me.

Anyway. When I am feeling self-pitying I think: well I gave birth, my body is obliterated, I am knackered, I am breastfeeding day and night, I am actually pretty fukcing desperate with misery a lot of the time, just back off and cut me some slack, if you can't actually help me could you moan a little less about how I am not sunshine and light. When I am being more self critical I hear what he is saying about my temper and think he is right, I am nasty and mood swingy, but manage to put a bright face on for others, I am being abusive.

Sometimes it seems like either way we have to break up, either because I am abusive or because I am being constantly criticised and accused of abuse while miserable, and that is no way to live.
Sometimes it seems like it would be crazy to break up over a tiny thing like he thinks I am a piece of shit.
Actually I think I am a piece of shit.

Anyway sorry about long post. Just to be concise at the end:

how do you know if you are abusive?
If you are what can you do?

He is not an entitled prick, he has just brought me a boiled egg and will probably take dc1 to the swings soon (he often does). He just doesn't understand.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Romily, that is just how I feel. what worries me about "am I abusive" is that abusive people say "look what you made me do" when they blow up in anger. I feel like that. I feel: yes I am fucking angry but you aren't helping and that's why. but actually he does help a lot.

Yesterday we all went out on the train, The big double pram was in the car. I knew we needed to get it out and unfold it and I felt tired thinking about it but for some reason didn't ask him to do it.He dressed dc1 and went on the internet while I dressed myself and dc2 and then he went in the shower and got dressed while I got the other things ready. including lugging the pram out of the car. It seems to me now that I would have felt better all day if instead of some of that 10 mins on the internet he had taken the pram out of the car ready for us to go out. That one thing would have made me feel so much more looked after. Why didn't I ask him to do it?

I get what you are saying there. I also have that feeling of not asking and then feeling resentment as DH spent some time doing something, anything that was not essential. Often DH just sits there watching TV or something, and I eventually end up screaming at him in frustration. The reason - I don't get the chance to just switch off - ever. well I do, I sometimes go out with friends.

Say now, I am doing MN, but I am also looking after all the children almost entirely myself, makingbreakfast, surrounded by a pigsty in my kitchen, which really I would have liked him to clear last night, but he didn't. While he is up in the garage - admitedly sorting something out to take to the tip. But still... Unreasonable maybe on my part, but it's exhaustion and wanting to do it all myself, so know that I can. But actually never meeting the too high standards I set anyway. And I also need to deal with the issue of not being able to find the wipes, or whatever else. On that one, I simply stand my ground and calmly repeat - they are in the bag. Until finally (sometimes 4 times of saying it) he finds them and goes sheepish. Depending, I sometimes then tell him how frustrating that was.

My biggest issue can be summed up with saying "I shouldn't need to ask". That is also the root of most of the issues in my house, because I cannot seem to accept that often I do need to ask- even if I think I shouldn't need to. It sounds like it is the same for you actually.

Perhaps you could say something like "ok I realise things are stressful and it's obvious to everyone that I'm exhausted (!) so I'm going to try to get things back on track by getting some rest. So I'm leaving you the change bag, the bottles, a note on when baby needs feeding. I'm going to my mum's/friend/hotel and I'll be back in 48 hours. Hopefully with a little rest I'll be much more human and then we can begin to work out how to make our situation better.

If you don't want to stop feeding yet take the baby. Just having 1 child will seem like a break!

Good luck. Go to your GP or HV to express your tiredness and seek more help.
You don't have to get drugs but just talking to the GP can be a huge relief.

Thinking of you and willing you on. Much love. xx

Right, you say he is 'helping'. He shouldn't be 'helping'- they are his kids, it isn't helping to do maybe 10% of the work, he should be parenting, with you, doing 50% of the work. You shouldn't have to ask him to get the pram ready- it's an obvious thing that he should know to do because he is also a parent. I agree with people saying you need to get away, even just for a day, so he actually pulls his finger out of his arse and lears how much work it is.

Incidentally I know I definitely was abusive to my ex- he was also abusive to me, but obviously that doesn't excuse it, I mean actual physical fighting between us. I've never been like that before or since, and it was about similar things e.g. we had agreed, if anything with him being more inisistent on it, using cloth nappies which back then you needed plastic pants for. He refused to wash these, because 'it's disgusting'- so while it was fine for me to be forced to do disgusting stuff, he thought he didn't have to for his child. Also many other things. Now I've not been living with him, it is SO much easier and I don't feel like a horrible person. Even though you'd think it's more work on your own with kids, it's actually less emotional work if you're not being forced to look after a grown man, and help that you have to spell out every single step of isn't actually help, it's learned helplessness (something lots of men do wrt household tasks). The only times it is harder is when I've been ill (physically), but even then, when I was ill living with him, it was often that he wouldn't actually bother to 'help' any more anyway. I don't think you should do the whole 'dump the bastard' thing yet, but maybe pointing out to him that you'd be doing no more work if you were on your own would help him to get it through his thick skull that he needs to stop being deliberately useless (and it is deliberate- he's a grown-up, he knows you need a pram for a baby, etc).

Thanks everyone, it really helps to talk about this stuff and hear that it happens to lots of people.

DP has offered to look after the kids while I go away for a weekend, he knows I would kill for 48 hours to read and sleep and has suggested this off his own bat. But he thinks I can express enough milk for this and doesnt realise how hard that would be. I am definiitely going to take him up on this when dc2 is old enough to manage. I am not ready to give up feeding, perhaps I being silly about it but it is one of the few things I feel I do "right". (No dig at all meant to ff, just saying that it makes me personally feel better)

And this is how I know I am just a carping bitch - how lucky am I to have that offer sitting there on the table? How many women would love that? but all I think is: I can't do it for a good while yet, and he can keep reminding me of it and that I have refused it, as if it lets him off making more effort to suport me here and now in day to day life. I say "I am so tired" and he says "you know I think you should get away" and I think "yes, I am so lucky, so I can't say, why don't you do XYZ RIGHT NOW?"

I know he doesn't do this stuff deliberately. He just prances through life not agonsing about the logistical future like I do. I am always 5 minutes, 2 hours, or a day ahead in my head, thinking "and then I will put them in the car seats and then put the pram in the boot and if there is a parking space right outside that little shop I can pop in and get milk and if there isn't then maybe there will be enough till tomorrow if I don't have cereal for breakfast or milk in coffee....." etc etc he doesn't know he is putting all this on me, it is just what I do and then I resent him for it.

I get this from my mother. I look back at our childhood and it was my mum, doing everything, apparently tireless, while my dad read the paper. I can't be as strong as her and I hate to ask for help because I feel bad about not managing. But she really resented him for taking her for granted. She covered it up, or tried to, but she did. And now I have to change things and move on.

You are depressed and exhausted. You probably are quite hard to live with at the moment, and maybe he is walking on eggshells, but he also isn't pulling his weight.

Some practical things you can do:

Is the PND being treated?

Have your iron levels been checked? Anaemia can make you completely exhausted and wiped out.

How often is the baby feeding at night? Can you cut down? Maybe give a breastfeed at 11pm and then leave the baby with your DP and a bottle and go and sleep somewhere else.

If you don't want to use formula, maybe think about introducing solids soon - then you'll be able to get bigger gaps between feeds in the day too.

Could you afford a babysitter/mother's help to come in a couple of afternoons a week?

When I was feeding at night, DP would take the baby for three hours in the morning so I could sleep - can you do that? Handover both kids at 7am and go back to bed til 10am.

Get him to take out the two year old for the day and spend the time doing nothing. If you can't switch off from the housework, then go and stay with your parents as long as they would just let you lie in a room watching tv/reading and b-fing, or to a hotel for the night. It'd do you the world of good.

I think carrying on bfing is great and if you want to, you definitely should - you just need to get the HV or someone to explain to your dh how tiring it is. It'd probably be best coming from a professional as he sounds a bit dismissive of you. Expressing never worked for me either.

And try to not stress the planning. Maybe have a list in mind, and just tell him what needs doing, while you hold the baby and watch him do it.

I don't think you're abusive - I don't think abusive people question their own behaviour, they just think they're entitled to behave as they do all the time.

Are you on any mini-pill? Cerazette made me very angry and paranoid so came off it when my DD was 5 months. I feel so much calmer now. Sorry to hear about your troubles and I hope you feel better soon :)

Oh yes, good point, itypefast. Minipill didn't suit me at all either.

I can't say much to help, but I can so identify with how you are feeling. I have been through it each time with my children until I stopped feeding them (it really does take so much out of our bodies), and am now pregnant again and dreading going through it a third time. What you say above about the constant stream of planning and organising is so true, it's exactly how I feel. I was amazed though, that when mine started sleeping through and I was no longer breastfeeding, I suddenly had enough energy too cope with it and it didn't seem hard at all, but whilst exhausted it seemed like the tasks in my day were neverending and insurmountable. We went to counselling both times the babies were small because our relationship deteriorated so much, because I felt unsupported, and that made me turn into a bitch.

I really hope you can find a way to get through it. The best thing I did to help us was to explain how hard I found the small things, so packing bag and car to go out for example, and say that even though it didn't seem like much it would be a massive thing to not have to do it sometimes - then sat back and left him to it until he said we were ready to go, at which point I got in the car.

If he's a decent bloke he should understand and do his best to help you, so try to be clear about what would help you most.

I'd say he was being abusive if you are suffering from PND and exhaustion and all he can find to do is criticise you.

You need to have higher expectations of him. Him going on the internet whilst you were rushing around getting things organised is not on. Why were you going out on the train anyway when you're so tired?

Him offering you things which you aren't able to take him up on e.g. the two days away, doesn't make you lucky, it makes him unsupportive.

I don't think you sound abusive - you sound like you're at the end of your tether.
Has your Doctor done any tests (i.e iron levels) or have they just said it's PND? This comment 'I am being treated for PND but it isn't helping and it is just another thing that can be used to discredit me.' Doesn't sit right. Do you mean people use it to dismiss your feelings and needs?

Breastfeeding on it's own shouldn't make you feel tired or feel so low. What will make you tired is trying ot see to the needs of a toddler, newborn and you and your DH. Having a young baby is what is tiring. Could you try getting a few very early nights? Like 7-8 pm early and leave DC with DH who could bring DC2 up when hungry.
TBH my main worry about switching to formula would be that you might get even less rest as there is no guarantee DH will share night feeds.

If dh is using your PND against you, then he's the one behaving abusively.

The other thing I'd ask is why is he not believing you when you say that breastfeeding is exhausting you? Why does he not respect what you tell him and your experiences, and decide that he knows better.

He sounds lazy, selfish and entitled. A lot of crappy men are big on the extravagant but useless gesture/offer, and it's quite deliberate: they know that you will not like/want/be able to accept whatever it is, so they make the offer in order to be able to whine and act aggrieved when you turn it down, and then they say that you are unreasonable and 'Well I made the offer, why are you still moaning?'

As previous poster said: deal with the tiredness, the toll on your body and your PND first off.
Can you give the HV a call - they should be keeping an eye on you if you have PND or the GP. Talk about what you think might help, kept them to write down stuff that might help. Do you have family (mum) who could come down for a few days (or MiL) anyone? Perhaps see if you could afford someone to come in and help for a couple of hours - cleaner/babysitter/can 2yo go off with a friend for a couple of hours? Playgroup.
Solids are just round the corner so that should take the toll off your body gradually.
My ex was a twat, when I was at rock bottom he got aggressive. We weren't coping, but bf woman needs to be cut some slack too. Please shut the abuse thing out of your head ... at the moment it is stress, stress, stress. Post here and on bf site and talk in RL. If H won't support you enough there are plenty of others that will (((hugs)))

cloudsandwind - it's not that he doesn't believe me, he just sort of forgets. I think I feel like an invalid but don't necessarily look like one and he just sort of needs to be asked or reminded that things that are quite easy often feel insurmountable to me.

I started this thread last night because I was so upset after a really shouty row (shouty on my part). I apologised this morning for shouting last night but I was very specific about that - not apologising for anything I actually said or for being so upset. I didn't want to get into it all but I wanted it to be clear in my mind at least that although I shouldn't be shouting, I also have a point of sorts. Anyway although we didn't go into anything, this morning he has made breakfast for everyone, washed it up, put a wash on and taken both dc out. I feel like maybe he does get it because his behaviour today is that of someone responding to someone at the end of their tether, not responding to someone who is nasty and unreasonably angry.

I need to work on communication. I love having this break this morning but I also feel so guilty - is it because of the break per se or because I feel I behaved like a bitch to get it? don't know, just feel a familiar guilty feeling. God the catholic church has a lot to answer for.

You need to talk to him about everything you've expressed on this thread.

Then gauge how he reacts: if he begins to understand and try to help you, then great.

If he dismisses your feelings and experiences, he may be the one who is not very nice here.

I would swear my dh is a bigamist if he wasn't next door watching the telly. You are not abusive you are exhausted. He needs to cut you a lot of slack. My dh moaned about me being grumpy all the time when I had ds. He could not take the fact I hadn't slept for more than 2 hours at a time for 7 months into account and I did ALL the cooking, cleaning, shopping, and childcare. No wonder you are snapping at him.
I too got better once I started giving formula at night so he could get up and I could get some sleep.
You don't need this, you have pnd. Why should you be worrying about being abusive when if he was a bit more thoughtful and helpful you would feel much better. If you do lay out the things you would like him to do does he accuse you of nagging?
Cherry picking jobs is another dh trait. You don't need the stuff taken to the tip now you need a break and help around the house.
Your post really made my blood boil - it was me 3 years ago struggling to keep going, to do everything and blamed cos poor dh didn't think I was sweetness and light. He was a good dad but I sat him down at one point laid out exactly what I was doing every day, what sleep deprivation and bfing round the clock was like and told him if he didn't shape up he could leave as his moaning about me was making a difficult situation unbearable. He got the message and was a bit better- you can't expect miracles however.
You will get through this.

How convenient for him to forget a "small" thing like the fact that you are breastfeeding a baby and it is taking a physical toll on you.

Sorry, but I think the fact that he's brought the abusive word in here is a red flag. It's not you who is abusive so who is he really talking about? The way you've described him here it sounds like him. He is very undermining, "forgetting" that you're exhausted but somehow not "forgetting" that you're supposedly abusive and he can criticise you as much as he wants. No wonder you are worn down and snapping and losing your temper.

If you aren't going to acknowledge what is going on here for yourself, do it for the sake of your dcs. It will harm them to have a miserable, exhausted mother who is being undermined by their father.

Have a day in bed with just the baby. Go to your mum or get him to take toddler with him to stay at his parents for the wd (if it's poss?) then u could potter about, eat toast, feed, rest etc
You're feeling stuck so trying to address all the massive issues is just overwhelming. Yes there are loads of issues that need ironing out but one day at a time and all that! First things first, get a break. x

paddypoopants - "if he didn't shape up he could leave" - my last words last night to dp before he stormed off to the spare room were "move the fuck out". I meant it then! Don't want that to happen now though.

Someone asked what I meant by PND being used to discredit me - I mean that if I see anything in a way that is negative or critical, "it's the depression talking".

Why were we going out on the train? - we are trying to find a place to rent in another town. Train is easier than driving. DP doesn't drive.

It's just such a long time isn't it, that you feel really ropey. For some of us. I didn't cope well with pregnancy and have to say I feel better now than I did then. but still pretty crap, and it goes beyond the initial acute post-birth thing and that is what is so hard for us to get our heads round, that it just goes on and on and on, even me, I just want to snap out of it, I feel stupid for feeling such a rag when my baby is 5 months old. I know people who were wearing size 10s and prancing about looking for stuff to do when their babies were 5 months.

I think I will call the HV tomorrow and have a moan. She's nice. I think it would help me to talk to her and she'll tell me not to feel guilty for having a break. I felt so guilty hearing him do the breakfast dishes, why? ask me should he do them and I would say yes. why when it happens does it make me feel terrible?

Sorry to go on and on it really helps. Can't talk to rl friends like this.

One of my friends gave me a birthday card with the nicest things written in it and I keep picking it up and reading it thinking "would people say things like this about me if I were horrible and abusive?" but then I think, people always say that about abusive partners, only their partner gets it and the rest of the world thinks they are lovely