How many of the men in your life have used prostitutes, compared with how many who haven't? I'd like to ask for help or perspectives on this?

[aliasforthis2]

I'm a semi-regular poster but obviously have name-changed for this.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

I worked as a prostitute for 4 years and stopped/exited nearly 18 months ago. The reason I started working as a prostitute was because it was sold to me as a glamourous and easy way to make money. At the time I had many debts and was working minimum wage and living totally hand-to-mouth with no room for manouvere,if an unexpected financial burden hit like a bank charge, we would be screwed having to choose between food and electric. A friend worked for an agency and I'd seen Belle du Jour and naively thought it would be like that.

Anyway, I am now out as I just couldn't handle it anymore. A very small percentage of the men were ok but the vast majority did things like -
-try to take the condoms off
-have poor hygiene and refuse to shower first worried it would take up their 'time'
-try to get service for less money or even steal back the money
-try to force services i did not offer like anal
-be unashamed about the fact they were partnered or had a wife at home
-speak to me disrespectfully and patronising, saying things like "I want to get the most for my money" etc
-scrutinize my body and give me advice on how to look better or compare me either positively or negatively to other ladies
-try to take up mush more time than paid for deliberately
-sometimes maybe once a month i was assaulted leaving bruises or spat on or held in a house
-a lot of phone or text harrassment
-most wanted young women the younger the better ie 18-20. i'm serious when i say that this is what most men wanted - young and naive. I answered the phone for the agency sometimes and i'd say three quarters of the men specifically requested 'young' ie 18-21 , 25 at a push.Which I think is disgusting given most are in their 40s wanting as close to 18 as they can.

Obviously not every man did ALL of the above but I'd be hard pressed to find a man who did not try at least one of those things. I don't know any other way to describe it.

I have been single for a while, I had a relationship with a genuinely lovely man I met at my new work for a while (no red flags) but it ended as he became a complete workaholic when starting a company and we drifted apart and split 6 months ago.

Anyway the point of this thread is for me to get a more balanced perspective on men. I had counselling on the NHS for 12 weeks which was helping but they wouldn't fund any more. I have been told by sympathetic friends who are also ex prostitutes (not told anyone in 'real life') to remind myself that it's only a v.small percentage of men who use prostitutes/escorts. But I just cannot see it like that. Every man I see walking down the street I view as a potential customer of prostitutes and treated a person how the customers treated me. I feel like punching them sometimes for no reason. Every married man I know I wonder if they have went to a prostitute with their wedding ring happily on moaning about their wife. I find myself wondering if I will ever have a relationship with trust again. I don't live in a particularly big place or a travelling business place but the sheer hoardes of men calling the agency every day and booking was unbelievable. And more than half would have unsuspecting wives or gfs.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

Thanks x

"Perhaps you would care to consider the service that prostitutes provide in cushioning the wider community from abuse/violence and other perversions/deviant behaviour that would otherwise be reflected in crime statistics?"

This is a myth. Can you point to any evidence to support this view? The opposite is far more likely to be true: prostitution is violence against women, both a symptom of the oppression of women and one means by which that oppression is maintained.

I never said it's possible right now, I'm talking what MY choice would - I didn't say I KNOW how to stop it as I'm not ingoverment for one thing and have no such powers. It's a personal attitude, same as some people want brothels to be all over the place.
Yes, murder hasn't stopped - but it's HARDLY as wide spread as prostitution, of course punishment and jail stops people - not all, but it's just a pettu argument. I hate the culture where it's 'fine' and 'ok' - it should be on the par with murder etc. And if a woman gets abused she goes to police and is being helped, with prostitues as OP decsribed there is no immediate heklp as it's seen as she was getting herselg in for a risk = she never seemed to report anyone, it's a complex shame issue, plus violence gets addressed mUCH more in press etc. I hate that Belle du Jour was allowed on tv - they wouldn't glamourise domestic violence or murder, would they??

Prolesworth - exactly!!

I don't if you're still around Bogey but, FWIW, you're spot on.

From violent cartoons/games/magazines through to the hardest of hardcore pornography, young men (and women) are being desensitised to the reality behind the imagery.

And, as you say, they don't have to use their imaginations as it's effectively been done for them. All they need to do is buy the product and buy into the nightmare.

Prohibition is likely, as with drugs, to create more problems than it solves. I?m curious to know the OP?s views on damage limitation which I suspect is the best that can be achieved.
Alias, how would you address issues of legality for both prostitute and punter?
What would you change and why?
Do you think that awareness of the wider issues should form part of sex education at school?

Late to this thread, but a couple of observations and a question.

I detest the view that prostitution provides a valuable service to society. It most certainly does not. Any activity that involves the sale of someone's sexuality, diminishes society and equality. There is absolutely no evidence to support the myth that its existence deters punters from violent crime towards others, but plenty of evidence (as this thread demonstrates) that those punters feel entitled to degrade and abuse the sex workers they engage with. Any abuse is unacceptable, to any member of society.

I agree with bogeyface about the link between younger punters' attitudes and the porn they have grown up using. I feel a bit uncomfortable asking you a question OP when perhaps you wanted this thread as a means of support and not to answer questions, but I'd be interested in your view about the links between porn and the treatment you've had to endure?

As you and passions are clearly on the same page Prolesworth I'll step aside and let the two of you get on with it while I write a response that will be specifically directed to the OP.

Medieval times - well, again nopoewr to women. was there? the whole point of being in the 21st cen is that women aer really starting to be equal. And when that reaches real equality, the prostitution has a chance to be criminalised due to more women in government and the general attitude. When there is enough public outrage, things usually happen, revolutions if you like. It hasn't reached the point yet when women (and men who respect women) have enough voice, Prostitution is vile and has no place in the world, whereas presonal choice like sex clubs/no strings sex should always exist - thre aer options, noone's depriving people of their sex needs! Prostitution is damaging full stop, and it's all based on business and greed, not actually on REAL sex needs that are perverse (listen to OP describing the pervy/hurtful behaviour of MOST clients, it's not about basic sex it's about demeaning a woman and doing things against her will like a rape would be - reread OP's examples with clients).

I am absolutely sure that my dh has not, nor my father. I do not know of any man who has. Dh can think of 1 man that he knows of who has. Dh says that he has been propositioned, and has thought about it in the vaguest sort of way, but when he thinks about it in any sort of detail of what the reality is, it seems extremely odd to pay for sex.

I agree with windsorTides.

My view on the legal side of things (forgive me I'm not very politically aware ) is that perhaps the punters should be criminalised - my one and only aprehension on the Swedish Model would be that it would probably drive the trade further underground and those still working will need to take bigger risks as there will be fewer clients and the clients who still risk it will probably be the dodgiest ones anyway and even more unwilling to give their personal information to escorts who need it for safety if they fear being 'caught' - but in every other way the Swedish model sounds like the right idea to me. Or perhaps decriminalization is the way to go.. but NOT legalization for sure. That just creates a haven for traffickers like in Amsterdam, and creates the message it's just a bit of harmless fun.

I believe that targetting poverty in general would stop many women from entering prostitution to make ends meet. And better rehabilitation for drug users. Also, more widespread provision of tailored support for those wishing to exit prostitution.

One thing I would definitely change is the current laws which make the only legal way for a woman to work as a prostitute dependent on her working totally alone. Prostitutes are not allowed to share premises in order for some form of security against the worst attackers - whichever woman owns or holds the lease will be prosecuted for "brothel-keeping" . I believe the powers that be really do have blood on their hands here - many perpetrators of rape and even murder have relied on the fact the woman is totally alone on the premises to commit their crime - if it were not a crime for women to work from the same building then they may be safer against those wishing to attack them due to their vulnerability. Definitely, criminalize the demand side, but also do not make it more dangerous for those women who will no doubt still be involved.

windsor, may I answer for OP, she did say that many younger guys played out an obvious porn scenarios (nearly stangling her and forcing oral sex until she gagged etc.)

I would like to see the theory tested by legalising (not just decriminalising) all the sex trades with full-on regulation, licensing, taxation and monitoring. Loads of regulation. Permissible practices, minimum fees, health monitoring ... and paper trails. Then we'd find out how much of it is as above-board as punters claim. Anybody using unlicensed sex services should be arrested and charged with abuse. I think you might find the authorities coming down harder on pimps & traffickers, too, if they were stealing revenues from licensed providers.

Lots of traffickers and pimps house several women in a flat, and scare them into not going to police or running away- if ou legalised these group set-ups, it would encourage the treaffickers. I'm all for Swedish model - first steps already towards revolutionary changes, though still issues remain. I think it should be tougher, so if men faced jail for it, I really don't think they's be just going for it like they do now. This would still leave room for common rapists, those who attack women walking late at night , but it would hugely cut down on number of punters who aer usual blokes as decsribed in this post (married men, young guys) - they don't want sex with a young girl enough to go to jail for it, I'm sure.

With respect, if you can read moonferret's responses and see a man who 'doesn't hate women' I suggest you visit specsavers asap.

I think that the fact that MF doesnt believe he hates women (and I believe that he doesnt), yet still says these things says everything you need to know about the men alias is talking about. I bet not one of her clients would say they hate women, but they still treated her like that.

Yeah I do think porn had a lot to do with the attitudes of some of the younger men (and a minority of the older men). If you type in "hardcore pornography" or max hardcore, bendover etc you will see what prostitutes are expected to do with clients all the time. Even if you have their own escort website with do's and don'ts etc - when you are alone with a man who is being rough you are not going to be able to do much to stop them and often shouting at them will inflame your vulnerable situation - they know this - this is why they do it.

Which does relate to the legal thing again - it will be obvious to Police whether women are just sharing a place for safety or whether or not they are being trafficked. Sharing places or at least having someone else on the premises (without them risking being done too) should be made legal for damage limitation reasons for the women (that point is very important to me because I feel if I'd had someone I knew next door to those rooms with me I'd have felt much less scared than I did when they knew I was totally alone), and punters should be criminalized. In my view anyway.

I am still around Izzy and yes, it is the desensitisation that is the modern problem. Fucking a womans face or raping her anally isnt a vile thing to do anymore, its just porn, and who cares about porn, it isnt RL, right?

The whole point of the 21st century is - there are options for sex like never before in history!
a)women have the Pill so men are not so deprived that they have to marry a woman to have sex, or go without sex in marriage as wife is always pg (if that was their reasons),
b)women are much more educated about their bodies, more interested in sexual flings or even swinging than ever before, plus women;s appetites are higher than before, partly due to being independent and more testosterone levels in their bodies than ever before due to life style, diet, and exercise,
c)plenty of websites for adulterers of both sexes if they are in sexless marriages or whatever,
d) young girls are willing to have sex with older guys anyway if the men have enough to offer in sex appeal, or are successful (plenty of celebs do it). Plenty of young guys want older women and there are toyboy sites.
e) a number young women would go for a sugardaddy types, financial support for a lasting friendship even if a man is married, or an actual marriage, but it's their choice of relationship and it's safe at least.
This leaves room mostly for demeaning/women-being-abused type of sex in prostitution(that isnt covered already by s&m clubs where people are willing) and is a niche for misogynists who hate themselves as well as women - they should do therapy, not sex.

I would like to see the theory tested by legalising (not just decriminalising) all the sex trades with full-on regulation, licensing, taxation and monitoring. Loads of regulation. Permissible practices, minimum fees, health monitoring ... and paper trails. Then we'd find out how much of it is as above-board as punters claim. Anybody using unlicensed sex services should be arrested and charged with abuse. I think you might find the authorities coming down harder on pimps & traffickers, too, if they were stealing revenues from licensed providers

Actually that theory may also work, but there would have to be proper regulation and all sex protected etc. And yes, anyone using unlicensed would have to be charged with abuse or else it would not work. x

prostitution just has no place if you think about it rationally - for both punters and workers it's not useful or healthy. All it does is harm, indulging the worst of human dark side AND being dangerous to workers. It should be criminalised in a TOUGH way. WEll done Swedes who are making the first steps.

Thank you for answering that question alias. This endorses a lot of my own research work. I'm really grateful to you for having the courage to start this thread, because it ought to be required reading for all the porn apologists on Mumsnet.

I also think that the men who regard porn performers as a different species to the women in their own lives, have the same misogyny that allows them to regard sex workers as sub-human, too. Amongst this group are the men whose public image is very different to the reality, men in high-powered jobs who are partnered with children. No-one in their lives would imagine they'd pay for sex, but many of these men have a madonna/whore complex, are often incredibly sexist in their attitudes and have partners who are benign about their porn use.

FWIW, I think your radar for spotting good men will be especially well attuned, given your experiences. I think you'll be able to spot a misogynist a mile off, but as you've had reaffirmed by this thread, misogynists can be male or female and just because they wouldn't dream of engaging with a sex worker, the misogyny is still there!

I just don't see why porn is needed to have a healthy sex life. In general I mean. I do think that it's just basically filmed prostitution. The participants don't really want the sex and that is the main problem. It's being sold to people (young women and teenagers especially) as a glamourous lifestyle - when that is far from the truth.

I do believe there is a place for explicit images and things like that though, but as soon as money becomes involved it turns sour and exploitative (overwhelmingly towards women)and like prostitution, about using women's bodies and minds up and then moving onto fresh meat for consumption and not "what we want to do" but "what we can get these desperate people to do" and "extreme sells".

Since rediscovering my own long buried/destroyed sexuality a little (I still have lots of issues but I'm trying) I will say that I would probably be turned on by watching real people do REAL sex that they actually WANTED or looking at naked bodies of people in general who were NOT being paid although I have no idea if that would be possible because when you add payment to the equation it definitely does become exploitative in most cases. And porn is a money-making exercise after all for the industry producers. I have hated pretty much every porn clip I have ever seen even before I started prostituting as underneath the women look really sad and vacant/in pain and now I recognize what those expressions convey.

and it's also being sold to young men as "how to have sex" which is so wrong on many levels. I'm all for being adventurous (well I am in theory not sure what I think about sex yet after my experiences) and for throwing off old conventions but humans have been inventing novel ways to share sex for thousands of years (ie the kama sutra or non-violent oral sex or non-violent anal sex, cave drawings orgies etc). Human sexuality does not need porn, IMO. Porn is just paid prostitution as far as I can see. And it is particularly damaging because it is so accepted and widespread and in recent years so chock-full of actual male violence towards women. It is worrying I think, especially from what I saw of younger "internet generation" men during prostitution.

Can't be bothered to read this. Has AF contributed? Her views are worthwhile!

Where do start on this one?

One of DH's friends admits to using prostitutes a few years ago. And just being near that man makes my flesh crawl (not simply because he used prostitutes, but because there is something very odd about the man). And I would have to say I would not like to think of anyone being paid for sex by him.

A few years ago DH was out on a stag weekend and arrived home unexpectedly at 2 am on the first night away, in a foul mood. When I asked him what the problem was he told me that some ofhis friends had tried to set him up with a prostitute and that he had walked out on the weekend because they had no respect for his boundarys or the fact that he is married. The upshot of that is the group of so called friends he went with have decided that he is not welcome out with them as he wont join in (WTF is that about).

I feel as sure as I can possibly be that DH has never and will never have sex with a prostitute.

To the OP. Take some time and allow yourself to heal inside. The majority of men are not going out there and paying for sex with prostitutes. But I think that many of the ones that do are likely to be utter bastards. Good luck and be safe.