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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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advice needed desperately regarding social services

881 replies

wannabestressfree · 28/09/2011 21:10

I am desperate for some advice and wondered if anyone could help......

I have three sons. 14,10 and 7. My oldest is aspergers and ADHD, self harms daily and has had two stays in mental hospitals. On sunday he attacked me with a knife in front of my middle son. He didn't hurt me but obviously it was very scarey. He then absconded {he does this a lot} and eventually the police took him to hospital.

A house officer phoned me in the morning and said he would be requiring inpatient treatment but he is medicating at the moment [he is on a childrens ward} and so they have reversed the decision and say he is fit to return home. He self harms daily and his special education school has told social services they are refusing to have him back. I work full time as a teacher.

I told social services I wouldn't have him in the house......... this is after years of asking for help and they have phoned today and said they will give me respite for a week by placing him in foster care in our old home town. I cannot believe they would do this as this is where he absconds too and drinks and was basically told 'tough'......... no other foster carers would take him due to his mental condition. The social worker insisted I tell my school they were dealing with us {head was super supportive} and said they would be looking at the other children. I am so upset as I just want some help.

He will stop taking his medication when he comes home, attack the other children and roams in and out of the house. We are all exhausted.

So advice please............ do I take him back tomorrow or allow him into foster care that I know is not the right place. I honestly feel like they are emotionally blackmailing me..................

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 30/04/2012 19:17

My fingers are crossed for both of you.

(((((wannabestressfree)))))

HorribleDay · 30/04/2012 19:19

Oh how horrible. It does sound very very overly strict given your DS has no forensic history - tho I understand re risk to himself - not something we'd have done when I worked in adolescent locked wards - we'd have supported you to visit. Adds weight tO it maybe not being the right placement, albeit one that is specialist. So so hard xxxx

izzyizin · 30/04/2012 20:33

From what you have said tonight, the first and foremost task for Bindmans is to tackle is the issue of visiting and funding for your journeys.

Your boy is a child and, furthermore, he is 300+ miles away from his home and family. He needs the reassurance of regular face to face contact with his dm and other famly members and I can think of no more cruel and unusual punishment than to deny a child a visit from his mother at a time when he is, allegedly*, extremely unwell.

Given that your son was so obviously upset and disturbed by what a sw told him that he attempted suicide, I would have thought that his clinicians and all involved in his treatment would be begging you to visit him and, to my mind, your LA should be laying on a chauffeur driven limousine to transport you to and from his placement we'll get it, honey!.

To clarify, as I understand it your ds is no longer on a forensic ward. If he was first sectioned in late September his 6 month section is overdue for renewal. It's my understanding that, should a psychiatrist deem it necessary, he can be detained on a further 6 month section after which time 12 month sections can be imposed.

As a confirmed cynic realist and given the timing, I am given to wonder whether the sw's visit came about at the hospital's request and whether there was a review or other meeting between her, as a representive of your LA, and Ardenleigh personnel** to which you were deliberately not invited.

I would suggest that Bindmans make the necessary enquiries and, if they have not already done so, request copies of your ds's health and social services records as a matter of urgency.

*I've used the word 'allegedly' because although I do not dispute that your son is, and has been for some considerable time, a very angry and unhappy boy who engages in self-destructive behaviour, I am not convinced that his psychiatric dxs have paid sufficient attention to the possibility that his 'symptoms' are caused by the frustration of an ads child who has lacked educational and other provisions that would have met his needs and may have materially affected his behaviour since he reached puberty, and before.

This is coming to the core of the matter which is whether his behaviour is attributable to psychosis or whether it is not uncommon in adolescent ads who are driven by hormonal changes.

To the best of your knowledge, prior to his admission to Ardenleigh, has your ds been assessed by a psychiatrist who specialises in autism/Asperger's on a regular basis or at any time?

**It is not unusual for clinicians and other medical personnel to be unaware of the legal difference between a child who is looked after on a voluntary basis and one who is in the full care of a LA by virtue of a court Order.

wannabestressfree · 30/04/2012 21:15

The bloody site crashed and my message was lost........
Ardenleigh is a forensic unit that has a speciality and recognised awards in dealing with children with AS. It houses the 'most disturbed children in the UK'.:{
Sadly even though DS does not have a criminal record he does pose a risk forensically..... threats to kill, fire starting, anti social behaviour etc. That is why I get visits refused. Because of the danger they think it poses me [I think thats rubbish] but there you go.
DS has never seen a psychiatrist who specialises in AS apart from at the Ardenleigh.
When he was admitted to hospital his 'hold' was a 30 day assessment. He was then sectioned for six months and that is up for renewal this month [may].

After talking to Bindmans today I felt a bit despondent. I know a trainee is doing the grunt work but she suggested I talk to a family lawyer about SS. I don't think she really gets it. I don't think its getting the attention it needs but I am not sure how to get a rocket put up it..........

I will be moaning until I get to see him this weekend...........

OP posts:
izzyizin · 30/04/2012 21:29

It's unlikely that we'll get the 'forensic' tag taken off before his next review/renewal but we have a goal to aim for and six months to whack the ball into the net - although, at the rate they're going, the number of own goals should enable us to come from behind.

Re Bindmans; I assume that you're emailing the solicitor you first spoke to and her mail is being fielded by the gofer.

I'll put my mind to the wording of a clear and concise letter to send by snail mail which might serve to concentrate minds.

In the meantime, stay incommunicado with the LA and let that incompetent bitch sw sweat it out and vent here as often as you want Grin

WetAugust · 30/04/2012 21:34

DS has never seen a psychiatrist who specialises in AS apart from at the Ardenleigh

WTF!!!!!

It's ridiculous that it's taken until now and after a history of failed placemnets that he's finally seeing a specialist. I'm amazed that hasn't happened sooner.

However I wouldn't rate a unit by its string of awards. I'd want to see/hear of hard evidence that the unit does deliver results. I also think that a 2nd opinion is long-awaited by a specialist in ASD. Another opinion would be useful when trying todevelop his longterm plan.

Having had first hand experience of how AS is managed (i.e. once they'd overturned their original misdiagnosis) I just wouldn't trust the opinion of one so-called expert in one hospital. I'd seek a 2nd opinion.

On the subject of solicitors - mine had no problem whatsoever with me complaining to local authority, Ombudsman or anyone else who took my fancy without legal help. Once it's known that you have a legal team those being complained about generally close ranks. I was told by my solicitor that every complaint I made had to be answered and in those answers we may obtain information that would further DS's eventual legal remedy - which it did. As long as you remain factual, have the evidence to back up your complaint and prefix everything with 'In my opinion...' or 'this would suggest' you can't go wrong.
Best wishes

Seabright · 30/04/2012 21:38

Ask to speak to the trainee's supervisor, s/he will be working closely under a solicitor, so speak to them to make sure it's going in the right direction

WetAugust · 30/04/2012 21:39

Another aproach I found useful was to ask the Psych to give me a written report describing DS's problems, what support he would require both now and in the future and recommendations for a future placement post-discharge.

This enabled me to start looking around to identify suitable placements rather than relying on NHS/LA to pass him between each other like a hot potato and finally be dumped in cheapest unsuitable option available.

Armed with the Pysch report I was able to send it to independant placements and ask them if he met their admissions criteria - then it's a matter of badgering the LA for funding for that placemnet. They rarely cough up the large amounts of funding required without a fight.

seaofyou · 30/04/2012 23:05

I second that hot bath...or as I do a froffy coffee and cake at nice coffee shop with crap magazine to forget reality for 5 mins! Keeps my sanity...kindof lol!!

I strongly urge you to take a career break you can take 1-5yrs as your ds is SNs. You will end up fighting SS/NHS/LEA and that is thousands! You will never afford it working and legal aid comes under your name not ds (for LEA defo).

Ds is settled rather fast again? I still think this is not schizophrenia as ds is not disturbed again...BiPolar maybe but defo AS! Have you questioned why ds is psychotic last night calm this morning...this does not add up!

Anyway, my last bit of advice as before find a residential school some take section 3, he needs a stable, structured behavioural environment...not somewhere he is bored so going to create more negative behaviours as they are using 'punishment' reinforcement on ds ...when will psychiatry learn doh! But then hey they know jack about behaviour/AS. He will get worse in this environment!! Get ds moved into therapeutic environment/school.

seaofyou · 30/04/2012 23:08

getting psych report as wet says good idea....but if you go for school you can get independant psychiatry/psychology/ed psych report done IND and free on Legal Aid!

WetAugust · 30/04/2012 23:22

Still not convinced his current placement is appropriate, given the reasons that he's been placed there.

When he did escape he didn't do any of the things that he's being held in this Unit for.

As for experts in ASD - they don't work in these sorts of Units. It's Judith Gould and her team that are the experts.

DollyBantry · 01/05/2012 21:32

I would just like to pop on to the thread to say how much I admire you OP for all you have done and continue to do for your DS. You are clearly a wonderful mum and I am appalled at all the cr*p you have had to deal with.

If there is any way at all that I can help, I would like to. For now, just sympathy and applause and hugs to you xxx

wannabestressfree · 02/05/2012 11:20

Ds has meeting today to decide his 'fate' with regard to leave, schooling etc. He was mega grumpy last night about the fact all the unit was having a take away and he wasn't allowed due to being on restriction. I made it clear to staff I wished to visit and also phoned this morning to reiterate I wanted to come up this weekend....

Will find out this afternoon....

OP posts:
izzyizin · 02/05/2012 11:35

What form of advocacy does your ds have at meetings such as today's which will 'decide his fate'?

Or is a child who is allegedly seriously mentally ill expected to participate in decision making which will have a material bearing on his welfare and wellbeing without representation?

Have you been told by clinicians/staff at the unit what 'being on restriction' means in the wider sense of the term?

Have you been given any written material relating to the unit's policies and procedures in the event of alleged or actual misbehaviour on the part of its residents?

wannabestressfree · 02/05/2012 15:21

The unit has 'risk assessment' form. His behaviour is monitored and then they have a meeting.

His visits have been denied again for the next week because
He has requested the art work of serial killers
He has a fascination with Ian Huntley
He has threatened to kill members of staff
He thinks it is a game and he is being discharged after conversation with SS.

So he is being as difficult as possible to ensure he can't go anywhere.

No visit for mum. More tears.........

OP posts:
izzyizin · 02/05/2012 15:33

What the fuck are they running? A psychiatric unit or a prison?

If a prisoner is refused a visiting order they have a right of appeal which appears to be denied to your ds.

Do they have any idea what this boy has gone through before he was arbitrarily placed 200+ miles away from his home through no fault of his own?

Do they have any understanding of Asperger's?

My heart bleeds for him and, of course, for you.

Are the LA still making attempts to speak to you on the phone?

izzyizin · 02/05/2012 15:35

Who attends these meetings that 'they' have? And how are the outcomes conveyed to patients and their closest relatives/carers?

CinnabarRed · 02/05/2012 16:18

Oh wannabe, I'm so sorry.

I hope it isn't too inappropriate to say this, but I really admire your DS's mind. He's chosen such imaginative and intelligent ways to wind them up ensure he stays put.

When, when you are through all of this, you can rest assured that he has a first class brain and a great, albeit dark, sense of humour.

And while things are still dreadful, one small crumb of comfort lies in the fact that if your DS is taking steps to make sure he stays there, he must know deep down that he's in the right place.

CRx

izzyizin · 02/05/2012 16:52

One of wannabe's ds's problems is that he doesn't process change easily, CR.

Consequently, he doesn't know that he's in the right place as much as knowing that he doesn't like the disruption or the challenge of moving from one place to another.

Having said this, how many of us who aren't afflicted with ASD would be able to cope with being rendered powerless to object to our treatment and arbitrarily moved 3 times in as many months to restrictive environments where visits from our loved ones are few and far between and are withheld if we don't comply with the 'rules'?

This child has been in crisis for a very long time and simply requiring him to conform to 'get out of jail' will do nothing to alleviate his mental and emotional torment.

CiderwithBuda · 02/05/2012 18:04

Christ. He is ILL and they deny him a bloody take away??! FFS.

It is almost comical except it is so unbelievable.

It actually beggars belief. Utterly.

LadyBeagleEyes · 02/05/2012 19:42

Nothing seems to have changed in mental health care, this is like last century and I'm utterly appalled.
I have no advice Op, you're fighting the authorities instead of working with them. I feel so sad for your ds Sad
There do seem to be a lot of people on this thread that have been through this, so I'll leave it to them to advise, but your son's treatment and those like him needs massive media coverage IMO.
I'm just Shock

seaofyou · 02/05/2012 23:01

They are using punishment techneques on a child who is punished for being psychotic and suicidal...Hmm

Please write to the Mental Health Commisoners and ask for ds to be moved to X placement(do you want me to have a loofk for placements for you? I am happy too)...ask for emergency CPA! Get the Human Rights Act out ready and demand ds be moved to a therapeutic learning environment.

You need to speak to Ward Manager or Hospital manger re their therapeutic stratergies...they are illegal and abusive to a non consenting adult (not an adult and not in right mind as mentally ill so they say!)

Next month is crucial Wannabe as after nect section you have so long to appeal or ds is on it for 12 months...its like a statement when you only have 14 days...it is 28 for section 3. You need an ind psychiatrist report for this...get onto your solicitor for this.

seaofyou · 02/05/2012 23:20

wannabe have you agreed with the unit if ds misbehaves you can't attend visits in his management plan?

Is it in the hospital/unit policy this is the stance they take if child misbehaves?

They do know they are breaking human rights act! You have PR and they cannot stop your visits. Contact Mental Health Act Liason Officer at the hospital to discuss it too...usually in Human Resource dept or get your solicitor to write a letter explaining they cannot do this!!! you are entitled to visit at visiting time...unless the risk was ds just tried suicide and initial 24/48hrs obs but this was last week.

Gward dont they realise AS usually have obsessions...obv not as USA wouldnt be trying to send that other poor bloke from UK to life in USA for UFOs! Your poor ds is learning lots from other nonsuitable role models to teach him how to be as destructive in life as possible ...your ds is winding them up but sadly not aware of the consequences yet! But hey I'd be confused too if moved/messed around like this and out of touch with reality life outside an institution.

WetAugust · 02/05/2012 23:28

The way they are dealing with your DS and you is totally contrary to the blurb on their website.

It's also alien to the care that someone with Aspergers should expect.

I agree with Seaofyou - do need to advocate for him and bring in independant experts who can.

Are Bindman's providing any real help here? Are the MH charities such as MIND, YoungMinds or the NAS able to provide any advocacy?

seaofyou · 03/05/2012 12:17

Wannabe Wet has been through stuff like this please listern to Wet!

Youngminds...will give psychiatric assessment/report?

Contact Judith Gould at Lorna Wing Centre see if she knows anyone who can help...I suggest Alan Willis in this case as I have heard his name in national cases where dc have tried to be removed from parents totally...into care no PR etc..he will say if this is correct environment ...your ds has a learning difficulty not a forensic illness...

I'd threaten the newspapers too! That would get ball rolling...don't have to carry it through....get someone to phone ward to say they are local paper (name the paper) and can they share some information on ds case...that'll put a rocket up their jacksy! (OK DON@T DO THIS BUT MAKES ME MAD WANTING TO FOR YOUR POOR DS AND YOU).

I feel utterly stressed reading your threads wannabe because I have never known such an horrendous case...I'll keep trying to think of ways to get ds into better placement etc I can't imagine your emotional and physical health as you are living on constant stress hormones...I do wonder when will you collapse into a heap with burnout...you are amazingly strong...but this is going to kill you! You need to try and get ds moved...the battles over past major messups can happen later! I am also worried your ds next attempt may be successful as their levels of observation...your ds should not have even been able to try anything! Again I question their professionalism...but this can wait...get ds out of this environment at the next chance ...section renewal/CPA next month.