The Brave Babes Battle Bus - Sweeping Into Autumn With A One Way Ticket To Sobriety.

[Mouseface]

Phew, just in time!

I'm mouse and I love a few to drink. I love all things cheese and I love MrMouse

Welcome to the Bus. We are a collection of drinkers, non-drinkers, and those who are somewhere in between but we all have the same thing in common, we can't just have 1 drink and then stop.

Come say hi, we don't bite .

Here are the other threads to date, if you have a spare hour or seven to kill.

OUR HISTORY

I guess. They can only do as much as she will let them. I wish I could make this right for you though, tis shite sweets xx

i know this sounds awful but the only thing i can think of is to have her sectioned for assessment. they need to diagnose and get her on some treatment and she is not going to cooperate with that voluntarily is she? it sounds like she is a danger to herself and others so there would be the grounds for it i am guessing. but obviously it's a very big step.

sorry if i missed this but have you talked to your gp?

Sectioning has been mentioned in the past, it made my blood run cold Anyway, it was said in a 'she's not quite ready for being sectioned' kind of way. There are precisely 12 adolescent psychiatric beds in my city (big city) and 10 of them currently have anorexics in them (one of them is the daughter of a friend of mine) as anorexia is so life threatening, the other two have suicidal depressives in them. The NHS is under so much strain (bloody tories, again) that they have to reserve sections for those that have already proved how dangerous they are to themselves or others because of their mental health. We did manage to get her to one psychiatrist appointment several months ago, where she looked at the floor and refused to talk. At the end she suddenly cheered up and got all articulate, the report afterwards said that she was not mentally unwell and certainly wasn't psychotic

Gah, I even start to bore myself when I get into this stuff because it's all so complicated and there are no answers. When she was a new baby I used to wish that there was a manual that gave you scientific answers about how to get them to sleep/eat etc. I still wish I had that manual.

I daresay my drinking in the past has probably had some impact on her, I have to take some responsibility for that and it was one of the major reasons I wanted to stop, but on the other hand I have a perfectly happy and well adjusted 12yr old too so it can't be all my fault.

SAF Yes, spoke to the GP - was the first thing I did when she started kicking off big style about a year ago. He wouldn't refer us anywhere without seeing her in person and she refused to go. Two weeks after that she took her first overdose which got us the initial referral to CAMHS (fast track too, so some good came of it!). I will not ever see that particular GP ever again.

I didn't dare mention sectioning tbh as I don't know enough about your DD.

It's NOT your fault, nope, NOT. Your 12yrd would be off the rails too if it were you.

I think that you feel an element of guilt but it's not your fault as far as I can see. Your instincts are to protect her, take care of her but how can you if she doesn't let you? xx

Hello,

Just back, credit card on fire!!!

Scoundrel, sorry I wasn't here earlier. I haven't worked with children with severe behavioural problems for a while, so I think Ma's DH will be of more help to you.
But, I do know that self sabotage is an all too usual way for a child to deal with a rage that they don't understand (and adults too, obviously, but we're not talking about us!).
I did work with one child who was removed from one school, and got a place at a school which had an anger management unit (an ordinary state school), with a unit for children who found it hard to fit in anywhere else, I don't know if there many of them around, though.
If you could possibly get DD to co-operate, and see an Educational Pyschologist for a report (very expensive, but, it should be paid for if you're in the state system), it might help. I have known the Ed Psych reports do wonders for children who thought they were stupid, and found out that it was something else entirely.
Of course I wouldn't countenance pinning labels on anyone (I hate it when it happens in work), but, sometimes it is just that, that will start to get you the help that you all need.
I'm sorry not to be much help, but, because I don't know DD, I wouldn't presume to suggest the way for you and she to go forward. I wish I could.
xxxx

x posted.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of an educational psychologist, I shall mention it when the school do eventually call me (probably not going to be today now). I suspect that it will have to be a referral through the GP/CAMHS route and that will take weeks/months still worth pursuing though!

I strongly suspect that the horrible culture of 'clever is a bad thing to be' that we have in this country is partly to blame for her self sabotage. Her first secondary school was pretty rough tbh, right in the middle of the burgeoning gang culture we have here and to succeed at school was seen (amongst the kids) as a really bad thing to do. Being a badass was what was seen as cool. Never have I made such a bad choice as to send her to that school! Not that we had a lot of choice without doing the rounds of exams and/or appeals which didn't seem necessary at the time. We did get her sister out and into a better school by the appeals process last Easter - if we knew what we know now, when first applying for secondary schools...

Scoundrel you shouldn't have to go through anyone but the school.

Ed psych reports privately are about £350, here, anyway, and of course, then you could get one straight away (rage emoticon!).

I just think that she is so young, you don't want her labelled by the big boys. I am amazed that the school have not suggested it to you before. It's their job!!

Thanks Thurso, I really do appreciate all the advice/listening ears.

She's only been with this school (hospital education service) since just before the summer. She had two weeks of lessons before the holidays and what it is now, third week in? So they don't know her especially well yet. Her school record must look shocking though and presumably they have that? She was stable (although not especially happy) at infants/juniors. Nice school, good kids. Then she went to the local secondary and got on ok for the first two years, managed to make some decent friends (avoided the gangs) and then she fell in with some older kids who were doing drugs and bunking off and it all fell apart. She never worked very hard always told me she had no homework etc. Once she crossed the boundary of not actually going in to school it was like she opened a floodgate of behaviour where she realised that there was really very little anyone could do if she just did as she pleased, and what pleased her were the kinds of things that have everyone else tearing their hair out. Eventually I took her out of the school because although they were working very hard with us to get her back on track she wasn't interested and it culminated in her being mugged by two older boys off school grounds - I could no longer guarantee her safety on school property as all the kids knew about it, the boys who mugged her got off scot free (they stole drugs not money so could not involve the police) and she would have been the target for every little scrotbag who fancied having a pop.

It took three months to find another school place, all schools in the city are full at her age and by then she had a couple of exclusions and poor attendance to her name. Schools are not obliged to take difficult kids on. Got her a place at a really lovely school in another town, but she hated it as 1) all girls, very bitchy. 2) Very early start as catching the bus was at the crack of dawn. So she started refusing to go there too and as she was there on trial they simply asked us not to send her again. She hadn't actually attended for about four weeks at that point anyway . Anyway, took another month for CAMHS to refer us to the hospital education service and another couple of weeks to sort out the home tutors. All in all she missed most of yr9 and has had very little contact with teacher types during that time. I guess that's why no-one has ever suggested ed psych?

Of course we still have the sticking of point of her refusing to see professionals and that is as likely as not what would happen if I were to get her an appointment with an ed psych whether it were private or NHS. I won't know if it would happen until about five minutes before the appointment. No amount of bribes/rewards/threats will make her see or speak to someone if she doesn't want to, she knows no boundaries and refuses to see anything from anyone else's point of view. She's 14, btw, in case I haven't mentioned it, so in theory perfectly old enough to understand what's going on and how her behaviour is going to affect her life in the future.

Oh Scoundrel, sorry, I was sidetracked by dinner making and Dc2.

"In theory" what a lovely idea! I wish it happened like that.

For goodness sake don't think that you are alone. You know that theory doesn't apply to DD, she is her own person, whatever that entails, and is too big to be a child, and too little to be grown up.

I am so sorry that I can't help you more, but, it would be really unprofessional of me to do so, although I would like to very much.

Get on to the education office in your area. There are state boarding schools for children who are unhappy, and the state will pay, although you have to argue for it (don't tell them I told you!).

i'm so sorry scoundrel it really sounds like you've reached the end of your resources and anything you can do. so sorry that you're not getting serious help with this.

Scoundrel you sound like a saint to me. What a lot you've been through and this is clearly in no way your fault, no way, no how. It's a difficult age and once they get in with certain types of 'friends' there's very little you can do. Hopefully, she will mature a bit and come to her senses enough to get back to her tutoring.

Ma well done on yesterday. One small step for man, one giant leap for ma-kind .

I'm ok thanks mouse I'm sober so that's something!

Thurso a state run (and funded) boarding school would be absolutely brilliant for my family I think, sadly I'm fairly sure that she would abscond and I very much doubt they would fund it for a child who is unlikely to stay put and use the education well. What is it that you do for a living that you have this info? (just being nosy really ) I'm somewhat out of the fight needed to get something like that, especially as I've already done the fighting for a school place twice already and had it thrown in my face at the earliest opportunity.

The reason she's stopped seeing tutors this time is because she 'wants to go to normal school' (I suspect someone has called her a freak or something for being in hosp. ed.) but past experience shows us that she doesn't actually go when she has a place at a normal school. To show willing I have put the wheels tentatively in motion to get her a place at her preferred school but I'm hoping (secretly) that they will either not have space for her or that they will refuse to take her on the grounds that she will be disruptive or absent. Quite apart from anything else I really don't want to cough up for a whole new uniform for the FIFTH time in three years (between my kids that is), just for her to wear it three times then declare it revolting and start cutting things off it, which she's done before. The blazer on it's own is £50.

Right, I'm away to my bed, Nemo has crashed so I'm offski too. DH is as miserable as a miserable thing! He so wants to come home bless him.

New thread tomorrow, I'll be here in plenty of time, I promise.

Night all xxxxxxx

scoundrel have spoken to Dh but can't in great detail as DS is here and I don't want to discuss these kind of things in front of him, however Dh has pointed out that I was incorrect in my earlier post - she can be put in secure at 14, doesn't have to be 16. he says if a place at behavioural unit is offerd and she refuses, this will be noted. The next time she is up before the childrens' panel, THEY will decide what the options are and if she refuses to attend to put her case, they will make a decision in her best interests without her.It is likely, he says, that with a history of fire- raising, many places won't take her. IF they decide that secure is the best option, to keep her free from harming herself or others, then they CAN force her into secure. this means they CAN remove her from your house against your or her will! I'm sorry.
he says you are unlikely to be in trouble with the authorities if you can show that you have made every effort to involve the relevant bodies and get help for your daughter, that you have shown yourself to be responsible.
I have a colleague in work, undergoing a very similar thing with her DD, same age as yours, and she - like you - is a wonderful parent and it is no-one's fault!!
I will talk with DH further soon, and see if has any tips.PM me if I can help.
And remember, that whatever you choose to do, you are doing to help her.

Scoundrel so sorry you are going through this, it is so hard to see your child suffering abd feeling so bad, and hard to deal with your own feelings about her behaviour as well. Well done for not drinking through it tonight. Ma big congrats to you for yesterday and how is day 1 going for you tonight? You must feel like you have been on a rollercoaster today as well!

I had one of those days where I left the office and really felt like a drink tonight, I drank about a gallon of water and tea instead, it didn't quite hit the spot if I am honest, but I guess I will feel good tomorrow, rather than the resentful I feel tonight, you know how it goes

ma thank you so much, that's precious information and I'll probably talk to dd about it at some stage so that she knows where she is leading herself (and us) if she continues to disengage. We've never been up in front of a children's panel, at what stage would something like that happen? would she need to be arrested or something? I've never heard of a children's panel before, we have youth courts here but they work in much the same way as adult courts only in a softer way that includes the child more (I think?) and you would have to have committed an offence to end up there.

I've known for ages that it might come to a point when she is forcibly removed from the home and I do dread it, a lot. I already feel like a failure. Sorry, I'm not wallowing in self pity in the slightest but before I had a difficult child I often thought that kids like dd were a product of bad parenting, I know better now

BB one of the things that gets me through some cravings is to remember that I have NEVER EVER regretted not having a drink the morning after. I have never wished that I had given in to the urge and got hammered. The evening might have been hard work or dull or frustrating but when I wake up the next morning with a clear head it's all good. I have, however, woken up on more mornings than I care to remember, feeling like shite and wishing I hadn't picked up that first drink. x

scoundrel do you have a social worker? Without a social worker it is more difficult to get childrens' panel involved. DH is appalled that you have seen so many people and seem to be left on your own. Has anyone referred your DD to social work? Can you explain what hospital education is - DH is not familiar with this up here? DH says your daughter is exhibiting classic controlling behviour - "I am not doing this and you can't make me!" - .
What other agencies have been involved?

Hi scoundrel I'm just about to pm you with a bit about my dd's story.

It won't give you any practical advice for the present moment, but it will show light and normality at the end of the tunnel.

fwiw I know you would HATE the idea of any secure unit, but by refusing any control, your dd is at the moment kicking away the very boundaries that might help her to feel more secure. To an adolescent brain that is probably as scary as anything, and having enforced boundaries (even for a very short while) may give her the safe space she needs for a while.

a bit more from DH - he says the childrens panel is not the same as the youth court. DD does not have to have committed a crime - the childrens panel is there to help the child but (here anyway) you MUST be referred by a social worker. DH says your first port of call is the local social work office - make an appointment and say you can't cope anymore, tell them all the stuff about school refusing, violence, drugs, aggression, fire-raising etc. Are you and your DH feeling the same about a course of action for DD? this is important. Ultimately DD needs help and social work can get that for you but they need to be involved. Remember always, you are doing this for her, to help her. DH thinks that residential school would be a good option and she can be made to go there whether she wants to or not. this is not the end of the world, you WILL see her again! Depending on the circumstances and the individual youwill be able to visit DD. Depending on behaviour, she will get home visits over the weekends and her stay at residential will be over a fixed period with systematic reviews at regualr periods.
Hope all this helps - sounds like social work is the next step
ma

Scoundrel hope you are looking after you in all this.

I had a roller-coaster of a day, especially continuing to learn to face things head on. I am also finding that I can tell/ share/ discuss anything with my sponsor and I am very lucky to have her. I need to add tissues to my shopping list - that probably sums up today. The grief seems very clean compared to how complicated it felt to start with. I am just missing and remembering. I wonder if I am denying the difficult stuff but I feel like I am just accepting it. Does that make any sense?

Off to bed, night everyone, sleepy dust to all that need it.

We did have a social worker, briefly. Saw her twice. We were referred when dd made an admission of taking ketamine to the school drugs counsellor when she was still 13. As she was under 14 it was deemed a child protection issue. She came to the house and offered dd a few sessions at the local drugs project, which of course dd refused. She came one more time and I think because we are a 'naice' middle class family who are not on the poverty line, she discharged us. I was quite relieved at the time but I'm not so sure now. It's another thing I can discuss with the teachers when I get to speak to someone.

It's good to know that she doesn't necessarily have to commit a crime to be referred to the children's panel. I'm sure she has committed many many crimes, she just hasn't be caught. Yet. I will ask about the children's panel, again when I get to talk to someone from the hosp. ed.

Hospital education service is a service for kids with medical issues both physical and mental health,so it is laid on for kids who cannot hold down an ordinary school place because of absences due to medical issues like hospital stays and/or mental health issues which mean they don't cope in mainstream schools. A lot of the kids there have social anxieties and school phobias. Their aim is essentially to get kids back in to mainstream eventually but they do keep them on until 16 if they can't cope in the system. It is a referral unit but you have to be referred by a medical practitioner rather than a social worker for behavioural issues.

If it were deemed necessary by experts that she needed a residential placement I would not stand in the way of that. We are not on the bread line but neither are we rolling in it (certainly couldn't afford private education of any kind) so the only way that would happen would be if it were completely funded by the council.