Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 4

[MadameOvary]

Hello everyone - end of last thread kind of took us by surprise!
Will copy in links etc

MO, I just wanted to say thank you for yesterday's post. It struck a deep chord with me. The person I loved wasn't "real", just a persona, but my emotions were real.

Dear MO,
thanks for that. It was inspiring. So true ... hard to admit the love as well as despair.
I remember lying in bed so often crying and thinking of Love Will Tear Us Apart by Joy Division. The sheer hopelessness of the whole thing and yet I was breastfeeding the child that he was incapable of sharing with me. He couldn't relate to us as a trinity of two adults and a baby and sulked because he accused me of having power and I responded I have the responsibility and with it comes power. I don't want all the responsibility and neither do I want the power that comes as a consequence.
So selfish - wrapped up in his depression, his long-term health condition that many people just get on with and his unrealistic ideas of freedom. And yes he has found someone who he says has time for him, who allows him to wallow in his thoughts of suicide and thinks poor him rather than poor DS who will be damaged forever if his father kills himself and is damaged anyway by his father's inconsistent presence in his life. DS is not a panacea for all his ills. He is a person who can bring joy, can bring laughter but he and his sister are the children. The adults are the ones who are supposed to protect them and strive to do their best. Ex is a toddler who when he acts as an adult is a coward.

Agree...Thanks MadameOvary :)

Toddlers ARE self obsessed though aren't they. Narsisstic solopsists.

It stuck me, watching the news, TUC conference, Parliament, the City....ALL full of toddermen running the show. No wonder it's all gone tits up. Simplistic journalese?..I don't care, that's what it looked like to me.

Anyone read the Adam Jukes stuff on the detachment failure from the mother, that he reckons is at the route of this? It fits in with the toddler stuff anyway. People joke about men being children, but if men being stuck as toddlers causes domestic abuse, and creates the Raoul Moats of this world, then I for one don't find it very funny. And it seems to me that this is such a MASSIVE problem for all of us, it needs more than Claire's Law to put it right, it needs a sixties sized revolution in the way that men see themselves.

Dear This is,
shared your comments with my colleagues on toddlermen and it all going tits up and need for sixties sized revolution" which made them lol.
I read Jenny Murray's book on boys ages ago and thought mmm, do we all have the insight and about of info she has to raise mature men??? I do hope so.
And re the mother attachment: think my ex MiL suffers from huge unexpressed guilt re her son's behaviour and she's still hoping that in his 40s he will get the idea. Made one comment re I hope OW will finally talk some sense into him. I said (probably a mistake) he's had you, me and now her trying to get him to do the right thing re DCs. Think it's a little late now. DS is surrounded by women, I hope that he will absorb by example some of the better points of the female sex.
My ex was obsessed by sex as only means of communicating, claimed to only be able to get on with women. I wonder whether that is because my mature male friends saw right through him???
So should we go back to the 60s slogan 'a woman needs a man immature, toddlerman like a fish needs a bicycle?

I read a couple articles on Adam Jukes in which he expressed his views, thisis.

I could go along with it, up until the hypothesis (this may have been the journalists rather than Jukes) that mysogyny is therefore women's faults: if they parented their sons better, they wouldn't grow up to be mysogynists. I mean, look at this Independent article -- the Independent, ffs!:

if, as he maintains, the mother who gives her son a strong enough sense of being loved even while the break takes place protects him from the wildest excesses of misogyny, then we ought to stop and listen.

We do betray children when we leave them for long hours, disregarding howls or pleas to stay with them, and convince ourselves it is OK. We betray them by seeking careers for our own satisfaction and leaving them the rump of our attention. We betray them by sending them to boarding school at a pitifully young age.

There may be good and sometimes immutable reasons why women do this. There is also a vicious circle. Good mothering rests to a large extent on self-esteem, good support and having the mental time and space to give to our children. Women caught up in abusive relationships with men may have none of these. But, all the same, perhaps the many women who have spent the past two-and-a-half decades focusing on what is wrong with men should read a book that considers their role in men's misogyny.

I am pretty at society's eternal effort to blame women for their own victimisation. 'You women want to work now? Well, don't come crying when men treat you badly, then! It's because you didn't pander to them enough when they were three!'

What is glaringly missing from this article and anything I've read quoting Jukes is an analysis of why little girls don't grow up to be mysogynists too, if it's the break from an all-nurturing mother than causes men's mysogyny.

I blame the patriarchy, not the mothers, for men's take of male-femal relations as a dominance-submission thing. As I well know from my own family, a non-nurturing father can raise abusive children. I'm sick of women, especially mothers, always being blamed.

Totally agree Puppy, where is the male role model in all this? Both parents committed and mature in their interactions with each other and DCs, then children learn that. Both parents share tasks, show respect, handle emotions then all children learn that.
If, perhaps, from 80s onwards the trend towards women in the workplace and ideas of new man began to be prevalent then upcoming generations of men should, in theory, behave differently?
I sort of attributed problems in my relationship to ex due to his father being a narcissistic twerp whose ego could fill an aircraft hanger and my mother being absent due to bipolar with the accent on depression. His mother copes, my father coped. We had models of competent parents but opposites to each other. Trouble is, I am aware and compensate/seek help for my deficit and ex remains stuck in blaming his father and never adjusting his viewpoint. One thing is father is always adamant on is not to lie purely because you waste so much energy trying to remember what you said. Didn't wash with ex who is a consumate liar.

Oh I agree. It's still ALL the woman's fault isn't it? I think he sells men a little short too.

H came to see dd. It's our wedding anniversary on Friday. He brought me a card.

Oh what a can of worms that opened.

We got engaged VERY quickly...Yes I know, a tick on the abuser's checklist. But then decided that marriage was "not that important" to him. This left me very hurt and very confused. Eventually we did marry. Abroad. No guests. No one knew. Almost as though it was a dirty little secret.

Dirty little secret theme comes up a lot with him.

Anyway, obviously I had not bought a card, and said that why would I, we were separated and he never wanted to get married anyway.

Stuff brought up about how my "family" don't do cards...they don't, but I always did, and I got even more drawn in. Saying that comparing me to my "family" was a disgusting thing to do and just wrong.

Fuck. Fuck, fuck. I have spent a long time crying today. I finally got through to WA, who are always wonderful. But now I feel like shit again.

Fuck. And the stuff he's taken today has really upset me. He can take what he wants, we are separated, but it hurts.

Dear This Is,
sorry that you had such a bad day. Can you be in control of what he takes and when? Get a few boxes and stick his stuff in them and then ask him to take or get them ready for next time he drops DD back? It will be cathartic for you - there must be stuff you really dislike - and stops him rifling through what you need as your space from now on?

Do you know notsorted...that's what Garlic said. That even though we are in shitty situations, childhoods, marriages, whatever...we endlessly peruse the self help shelves on Amazon...looking for a solution to a problem that is not ours!

Re Adam Juke, I got on with his stuff up to a point too...I read the article in The Independent, and whilst I see where he's coming from, It's just all a bit too black and white for me. It wouldn't surprise me if he batters his wife. It just wouldn't surprise me, that's all...not saying I think he does! Do you know what I mean?

crashes in pissed hugs everyone, snogs randomly

Bluddy luff you all BE STRONG, FOCUS AND DON'T BE DETERRED!

You know, I just realised that X taught me some quite good stuff (unintentionally! )
Really, you can skew anything to your POV if you believe in it enough/ have a big enough brass neck.
This kind of ties in with the "blah blah blah" Charlie Brown teacher stuff, in that you can say anything to them with a straight face because it doesn't matter. They are talking shit 99% of the time, so can you.

So, just as you wouldn't turn to a toddler and try and reason with them as an adult, now you can treat your twat with equal dismissiveness as they follow you round the house, trying to wind you up, including distraction tactics:

"ooh, bit messy in here. Be a love and tidy would you? Ta"

"must go to the loo, back in a min"

"I said I'd phone my friend, hang on would you" (and if twat insists on speaking during call, make sure you repeat his twattery to whoever is there.

There's more but mmm, not sure that makes sense. Went to bed after DD and not long awake!

Yes more please MO, your ingenious bits and bobs have really helped me deal with my twat. Will catch up with thread after school run x

If you're feeling really strong, (not easy I know) and your Twat follows you into a room with DC, just sit down and say to DC. "Ok, let's all listen to what Daddy has to say"
Then if what he says is vaguely reasonable, just nod and say Mmm-Hmm.
If he says anything abusive, say "Why are you saying that? That's not very nice is it?" (Again, as you would say it to a child who doesn't grasp that they can't wind you up with "I hate you" or "You're a big poo-head")

If they look twitchy or are moving about a lot:
"Are you alright? You look like you need to go to the toilet"

or

"Are you alright? You've gone a funny colour"

If you want to derail a rant:
"Shit! I forgot to pay the phone bill/buy cereal/check dentist appt. Hang on"

More as I think of 'em.

thisis hugs to you. Are you having a better day today?

hissy so glad you found the strength to go to the group and how fantastic that is was so successful.

mo I really liked your thoughts about your relationship. I recognised so many of them. These twats do seem to have a common personality don't they?

My twat has been obsessing about stock rotation of food. he has started doing his own online shopping for the family because he says I am not doing it properly and am wasting food. Awhile back I would have been so bloody angry about that, felt so out of control. Now I shrug because as MO says I can see exactly what he is doing.
He of course has 'forgotten' all about the social worker's advice about being more involved with the children. I don't care about that either.

I so recognise the whole buying self help books from Amazon thing. I spent ££££'s trying to fix myself because he made it very clear that I was broken in some way. It was only after reading Lundy that I realised that I was broken, that I was basically OK. Screwed up by my mother and him, but ok, you know.

Being with these men can really fuck up your relationships with the dc's can't it? I know I've got 6 kids, so am going to be a little tired, but it's the lack of support that exhausted me coupled with the constant criticism and undermining, not to mention the outright abuse that wore me down. I think when SS came in the summer I was at my lowest point. I was so exhausted, so very very exhausted that I had become a scared and very ANGRY person.
I had neglected the dc's, I hadn't been a kind mother despite trying to be one.
I don't beat myself up for that though. It wasn't my fault. Now my 2 objectives are rebuilding my relationship with my children and getting out of here.
I am reading a very very good book on how to to love your children effectively. That might sound daft, I mean we all love our children, but this book focuses on finding out how best to do that for each child so that thye will recognise the love. It's called "the five love languages of children" I really really really recommend it for any of you who feel that your relationship with your children has been compromised.
It's sort of christian based which did put me off BUT the basic idea is amazing and has already made a huge difference to how the dc's and I relate to one another.
It has also made me realise how my needs were not met as a child and how I best like to be loved. Through reading this book I see even more how spectacularly awful the twat's handling of the children is. It give me great hope because I can give my babies love and security and he won't be able to poison them against me any more. x

Brilliant mo I shall use those. Please do keep them coming though, they are a godsend for me!

thisis - that's a really, really good point about all the self-help books, and us trying to fix ourselves - as if we are in the wrong - when the men just carry-on and don't give a shit.

Of course, we are not in the wrong, we are reading the bloody books in order to better function in the relationship, when we KNOW inside that this is wrong, that we are tying ourselves in knots trying to ignore how wrong it is, and carry on.!

I haven't read any of these books...do any of them say as much? Do any of them say anything to the effect of "You cant change him, you can however, change yourself"? Because that's what I realised I had to do.

First it was, "well I can't change him, but I can change the way I respond to him"

Then: "Wow, I dont get mad or upset, and he still ups the ante and behaves like a twat"

Then: "Wow, I was really reasonable and articulated myself very calmly, and he pretended to listen, then couldn't help himself...nope he's still a twat. It's definitely nothing I'm doing here"

Then: "OMG, It doesn't matter what I do or say. He's never going to change"

Then: "Dearie me, he's quite limited as a human being"

Then: "I'm not sure I can be arsed with this"

Then: "Go, on, just give me a reason"

Then: "Ok, had enough. The relationship is over. There really is nothing left. I have lost all affection and respect for you, and there is now a big glass wall between us where I stepped over the line and realised that while I can continue to change and grow and improve, you never can. I have literally moved on"

Well, that's how it was for me anyway!

Mornin' all.
I love this philosophical ponderings - it's kind of group therapy and what other people say brings lightbulb moments at times and always sympathy.

I had one yesterday. Picked up a book on Emotional Intelligence as freebie at work and lying around. Said you need to recognise your emotions, drivers and impulses in order to work collaboratively with someone else. Made me think about that. But picture came into head of two people in a relationship like jigsaw pieces. Some edges fit but most need replaning, sanding etc and again when DCs or other big stresses come into the picture. Us lot end up growing more bits that reach out to make a fit, by the abusive OH either can't reshape, chops bits off or shapes things so that it is impossible to fit, or rams his misshapen pieces in an effort to distort us. When we reach MO's point of utter detachment we have twisted ourselves totally out of original shape. Does that make any sense or utter rubbish?
Perhaps because of our backgrounds in childhood - being used to being accommodating, having to shift shape for best intentions we are more malleable than others who would have given up long ago.
Mmm, comments please?

Yup, I can see it notsorted. I'm seeing stbxh (and my mother) as jigsaw pieces with very hard sticky-outy bits, and me as a jigsaw piece made of more malleable stuff that tries to shrink back from the others' poky bits to still be able to fit with them.

After a while you don't have enough "give" left. (I used a rubber band analogy when I told stbxh it was over).

Hi notsorted that's certainly true. I don't recognise myself anymore. Of course as mothers we have to shape shifters anyway, we have to be malleable.
But as you say because of our childhoods we have no intrinsic sense of self, so when we bend to please and accommodate others we are not able to reshape to suit ourselves, that's when we become distorted.
I think for all of us this process is about finding out our true selves, or a least a self no longer twisted and contorted by our twat or parents.

Glad it made some sort of sense. As I try to come out of all this, was thinking I really don't know what shape I'm supposed to be. I can't even decide how to look iyswim or how to decorate the flat. I sometimes try for fem to be like my big sis, but other times I'm a tomboy so my wardrobe is totally inconsistent. Also can't make up mind re DS's bedroom as don't know how I want it to look. I could go shabby chic or bare and stylish or mishmash or I just don't know. I guess that is smallish part of my lack of identity?? Tastes in things like music is v inconsistent too. I can do girlie bits and also dry intellectual stuff. Mmm and now over 40 so reckon discovery of self has time limit.

I think you may be over-thinking it, notsorted! It sounds like your tastes are just varied. But they're still your tastes!

Ha-ha puppy got me in one. Worst fault is over-thinking everything and feeling a failure compared to others. Back to childhood eh? I thought everyone else had normal home-lives without manic mothers. Took some time to realise that every family has a few dark secrets ...

notsorted you sound like a renaissance woman! Nothing wrong with a bit of eclectica...that is who you are!

In many ways I recognise this too. I think that the inner child stuff gave me confidence in my own identity that I never had before. I have described it as a blank screen merely there for others to project their disconnections onto.

It was when I stopped doing that, that, at least for now, I have lost all the people that had been in my life.

Any of them will be allowed back when they have the therapy or whatever to come to the same realisation. That may or may not happen, probably not, but if I can get there....although I think that it is too late for my mother, she is too old and too mentally ill. Maybe my little sister one day..who knows. She spends a lot of her life being a projection screen too, playing out a part that fits..a jigsaw piece.

If I am no longer a screen for their projections....they have to face themselves don't they. That, as I know...is very, very frightening.

I cried for virtually all of yesterday. I spoke to WA and my friend in RL.
H apologised for the card and the insensitivity. Tomorrow will be tough.

notsorted - you could be writing about me, but I'm not stressing about it, the reshaping happens as it happens. The way I see it, my mis-shaping goes right back to childhood and then a succession of events kept me diverted from an emotionally healthy path - until now.

I lack the decorating gene. I am so not houseproud, as long as it is safe and clean and reasonably tidy I am not bothered too much about decor. In fact my brain goes a bit scrambled if I try to think about it

Re feeling like a failure compared to others. I take great comfort from the Desiderata which has always resonated with me.

Hello all.. I was here briefly in the first of this bunch but disappeared for a while. I did actually get out (yay!) and the elation has calmed down but am still left with the grief (for my lost time, for the future as parents together) and just stuckness of not having to fight in quite the same way anymore.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I've been reading through this massive thread and I am so impressed with you all. It makes me think, makes me feel stronger and more hopeful, gives me ideas about how to move forward and I am really grateful it's here. That's all.