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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 4

998 replies

MadameOvary · 30/08/2011 15:31

Hello everyone - end of last thread kind of took us by surprise!
Will copy in links etc

OP posts:
garlicbutty · 13/09/2011 16:27

thisis, you've just highlighted something I've been unable to put into words for decades! Thank you!

How many women ... after the so called feminist revolution, were "depressed" and dosed up on bloody valium!?

Couldn't possibly be the men ... the fact that they are disconnected emotionally

Tranquillisers (and, to a lesser extent, modern ADs) produce an emotional disconnect. Which is necessary for women to tolerate the disconnectedness of their men.

As you say, few 'disconnected' men see their emotional stuntedness as a problem. Women, however, devour self-help books, calming therapies and medications to help dull the pain of living in an emotional wasteland - all treatments designed to disconnect our feelings from our environment. Just we can carry on living in the half-light.

God, that's sad isn't it :(

foolonthehill · 13/09/2011 16:27

shall I cook dinner or just throw it at him....oh no...that's what HE does!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just clear it up!

foolonthehill · 13/09/2011 16:29

rant, fume, rant, fume...OK finished now! How are you all??

bigbuttons · 13/09/2011 16:36

foolonthehill-you have 6 kids too?

Just carry on as if nothing's happen, ignore him, hard though it is.

My twat, has been extra twaty today, regarding selling the house, looking for other houses etc.... he hadn't realised it was so crucial that i left with the kids ....WTF. I asked what he thought SS were here for then?Confused
So to my my shame I have poked him where it hurts today. I managed to really needle him whilst staying very very calm. I also burst out laughing at one point. i couldn't help it I was so waiting for a certain normal accusation to be hurled at me. And then right on cue it came. I was delighted, Felt like clapping my hands together in delight. I laughed instead and that didn't go don well either.
His rant is insignificant. I saw through it all, as he was blabbling away and although I felt slightly anxious afterwards it was ok.

garlicbutty · 13/09/2011 16:38

Don't cook. Ring him up and tell him to get a family-sized takeaway?

foolonthehill · 13/09/2011 16:57

Oh yes...the children are no problem...the problem is the big toddler!! Family size TA is a bit pricey for us but a nice thought!...have put an extra specially nice honey/garlic/lemon/rosemary/chicken dish in the oven as this will make children and me happy(er) and also show that whilst toddler tantrums are going on i can rise above...whether he notices or not it will make me feel like the "all powerful mother creature" that i wish i was!!
Now where did in put my Wonder Woman costume...just one twirl................

notsorted · 13/09/2011 17:32

Iswym re Women who love too much, but it does say basically get out of it. It is up to them to change. I am biting my nails at present as I know I have to sit it out waiting for him to get a sense of perspective/change to see the DCs. I am so bloody furious still! that he is choosing not to engage because of his issues and the pain that seeing them causes.
I feel so crap that there is nothing I can do. I guess I tried to manage things for so long - keep him onside re responsibility and unless he grows a pair or the OW tells him to pull his finger out nothing will change. Am frustrated at still being in limboland re any movement at all. I wish he'd just disown his fatherly duties now and for ever. Am feeling hopeless/powerless/stupid/down and all that other crap. His stupid behaviour feels as though I'm being strung along as well as the DCs. Still the longer he leaves it, the further away goes the threat of court. Obligation and responsibility - it isn't enough to say lamely I love them and that is enough. No it bloody isn't.
Rant over

MadameOvary · 13/09/2011 21:22

Buttons - it is LOVELY to hear you sounding so lighthearted and upbeat. I know how easily they can ruin this mood, but just getting to that place means you've moved on so much.

There is a place to get to where you get the measure of them, they can do nothing to surprise or shock you, and you can pretty much anticipate their response - it sounds like you might be there Smile. The next step is making it work for you. You manipulate them to suit you. If you know what makes them walk out - do it and enjoy the peace. If you know that they cant attend something (and they dont know that you know) then ask and then say "oh well never mind" (shows DC reasonable responses, reinforces your strength of character)

This can only be done once you have really overtaken them and can see them for what they really are - I saw ex as a "closed circuit" who was really easy to read and who would never change. I had, in short, lost faith in him. Sad really, but one of the most important steps in the journey of detachment.

OP posts:
MadameOvary · 13/09/2011 21:29

Does anyone want to read my latest post-breakup stream of consciousness? Might ring a few bells?

OP posts:
helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 21:46

argh. help me everyone (yes, I'm back, AGAIN, to suck from the thread...).

I'm in danger of losing the momentum. He's still not gone, he wants to try, he is notquitebutnearly refusing to leave (I will do it if it's the only way I can prove I love you). I can feel myself getting worn down, sinking back into the rut. maybe it's not that bad, maybe it is too much upheaval. But I was so sure! And he's just wearing me down, because that's what he does, he just doesn't listen to what I want and drip feeds/injects what he wants instead.

oh dear. I need to get him out, don't I? at the counsellor, he keeps saying 'we'll have to tell the kids, you know' in his threatening voice. WTF? I'm not stupid!

ooh I can listen to thisis's song now, wouldn't play on my iphone (am at my sister's babysitting).

Barbie, thanks so much for your message.

Am so humbled and honoured to have 'met' all of you. Some key things I've taken from this thread, and others, recently:

  1. that it is the sensitive, lovely, thoughtful people this happens to - empirically (I mean LOOK at all of us) and theoretically; we're the only ones who would put up with it and try and rationalise/excuse it

  2. abuse in childhood makes us more tolerant of bad behaviour

So our twatty parents (only one in my case) abuse us which in itself is horrible, but also set us up for a lifetime of being abused by subverting our instinctive love for them? God I really need to think about how I act to my children. Got to say, though, I do feel proud of the kind of parent I am. I mean, shouting and impatience aside, obviously...

have been feeling OK but did get really upset/overwhelmed today. not about this per se but just some of the shittiness of the situation we're in re lives and jobs and schools and how weak I was and how poorly I failed to stand up or EVEN REALISE what my personal priorities actually were.

have a personal counselling session on Thurs. Really looking forward to it. Can't wait just to talk. my friends have been amazing but of course I can't banish my paranoid fear (where did that come from Hmm?) that people are just saying what they think I want to hear.

rant over, sorry.

barbie was it you who said the whole 'that's it, we're splitting up, then I go and wash my hair and he watches telly and everything's normal again?'. That's what I need to get over now. And we all need to help each other to! Of course they want just to stick around and PERSUADE us again.

The reason I'm finding it hard to stand up for what I want is the very reason I need to get it!

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 21:50

ps fool SIX children? SIX?! WAIT, and buttons too? how the ding dong buggery fuck do you do that?

I get that 'no food in the house' thing too. Ok, then, what's this? and this? oh, I see, none of the special food I was psychically supposed to know you wanted to eat right now, except if I had it would have miraculously changed because you only want to be disappointed and feel like a victim.

one thing I have realised the last two weeks is that, no, it wouldn't be an empty triumph having a tidy house. it would be bloody lovely and stay that way.

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:01

um, just WOW! thisis - just amazing! and I RECOGNISE it so well. Have amazed myself this week with how I'm just getting stuff done and it feels easy. When DD2 was a baby it sometimes took me all day to empty the dishwasher (if I didn't remember it I really wouldn't believe it). DH thought I had PND but I somehow just knew I didn't. I was absolutely knackered but I think I was just, maybe, in retrospect, grieving my love. Wondering, wondering, wondering where the fuck it all went wrong and what I had done. So now I just need to give the theory of 'nothing, you did nothing wrong' a test run and see where it gets me.

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:02

ps MO yes please.

MadameOvary · 13/09/2011 22:20

Okay here goes, it's a bit WTF at first, but hang in there, and bear in mind I have PMT right now!:

Sometimes I miss you. Sometimes it is irrelevant that you hate me and will never talk to me again. When you let slip your frailties, such as apologising for a mistake
because you did not have your glasses, I want to weep. I am swamped with tender feelings for you, the first man I was able to properly love, and was decimated in return.
Its just that I learned SO much about you! I know you inside out. I know that you really believe that I had an affair and you feel hurt beyond measure. I know that inside you dislike so much, including yourself, and you miss talking to me, as I miss talking to you. Nothing else matters, nothing you did was bad enough to counteract these feelings because I wanted to love you so much, to know you and be loved and known in return.

But there it all falls down.

Supposing you decided to forgive me for my percieved error (which would be galling for a start, since I did not leave you for anyone), and wanted to try again, I could not. I could not trust you, and you are not what I need in a partner. You paid no attention to my needs at all. Only those which you saw fit to recognise. When I said it was over, to your face, you thought nothing of still texting me that you missed me, that you still loved me. You saw nothing inappropriate in this, even though, beyond a single, initial acknowledgement that I missed you too, I did not reciprocate.

And then you found out I was seeing someone else. You let loose the bile. Of course this was the reason I had left! There could be no other explanation. Now you were
free to hate me, and hate me you did. Like a child who has been refused a favourite toy, you let loose a stream of insults which I shrugged off - after all, once the father of your child has said "I hope you die" on the cusp of your giving birth, few things can consequently sting. I accepted my role as the villain with equanimity, neither confirming nor denying, challenging the odd point here and there, but never descending to a slanging match.

I still hope, you see, that one day we will be friends.

It is laughable really, have I learned nothing at all? You are not capable of anything but the the most superficial relationship, one where you can wear your affable, friendly or mildly-depressed mask, the one you assume when you want people to feel sorry for you. You will never grow up, never progress, it saddens me so much. You are a manchild, and I had so much love for you, which I had take back, as you soaked it up and gave back so little.

And so I leave you in your state of wounded, ignorant indignance, casting about for another "soulmate", a woman to project your needs onto, to relate your bowel movements to, to accuse, manipulate, harangue and mither. I leave you in your uneven mix of genius and child, I miss the intellectual chats that masked an ego trip for you and a chance to communicate. In the end it was the only satisfying way to communicate, the only way I could fool myself I was talking to a fully rounded human being, a poet, a lovely man, because no-one who wrote like that could really hurt another person, could they? But you borrowed and copied and assimilated and recreated and you made it work because of your charisma and sheer force of will, because when you smiled and spoke in that voice, you caught up people, eyes shining, in your wake, and they fell for it all, fell for your mask, really believed that was the real "you", when the real you was a black pit of despair, irritable, easily bored, condemning all as banal. And when, by a sheer lucky of draw of chemicals that day, you were in a good mood, I still had to walk on eggshells for fear of dismantling the bonhomie with a single, ill-chosen phrase.

Why did you have to be so incomplete? Why could you not have been the man you pretended to be? Because, I know now, he never existed. He was, at the start, my reward for showing you unconditional love, for reflecting the sparkle you raised in me, back at you, for being that man I had always sought - older, handsome, secure, intelligent, creative, neglected, cast aside by a younger, callous wife, who had done his best to raise his beautiful children under difficult circumstances. I let much pass me by in my desperate drive to believe in this fantasy, even though it began to erode almost as quickly as it had arrived. You had pre-warned me about being difficult when writing, about your "cyclonic depressions". You were quick to pinpoint my weaknesses and insecurities and use them against me, all in the name of love, of course. We quickly - too quickly - became a team, a unit, I was besotted . I felt your presence beside me even in your absence, and it was comforting. For the first time, possibly ever, I felt there was someone who really knew me, who was on my side, who i could rely on. I was hooked. Easy prey, and I would stay this way for many years, accepting verbal abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse, controlling behaviour, manipulation, denial, minimisation and blame.

Eventually though, the centre could not hold, and I was able to let you go, no longer able to deny the feeling in my gut, no longer able to pretend that I saw a future with you, that the love I felt was enough, because I knew what you were showing me in return, this surly, resentful, scant, bare bones of a relationship, which lacked tenderness or intimacy or any kind of adult exchange, was so laughably short of what I deserved, that being on my own was better.

OP posts:
HerHissyness · 13/09/2011 22:35

Blimey! Grin better out than in eh MO?!

You see I know I did all that too, but now looking back, I can't see it. I can't see what I saw in him?! It's like another life. Kind of like the life Pre-DC... bears no resemblance to my quotidian life. Confused Boxed up perhaps?

Went to the group today. BRAVE I know!

Group leader wasn't there! only 3 women and myself. we talked ANYWAY, and I opened up, talked about all sorts of stuff, others opened up talked about their issues. One has a real crunch point coming up, we tried to get her to fight it.
I hope she will.

We were there for 45m longer than the usual group! over 2 hours in the end! I think it helped me immensely. the smaller group, the ability to open up more.

I might have recommended St Lundy.... I can't believe they'd not been told to read it! hey ho... we have a long way to go!

MadameOvary · 13/09/2011 22:36

Hissy YOU WENT! BLOODY MARVELLOUS!

OP posts:
helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:40

Am crying. Don't know what else to say. Apart from thank you. And I'm so sorry that it happened to you too.

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:40

(that to MadameOvary)

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:42

Well done Hissy. Every post people make sounding strong makes me stronger. And one of the amazing things about this thread is there's so much goddamn indomitable happiness on it. Does anyone else feel that? or am I crazy? (I could well be)

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:43

and re 'adult exchange', I think I kidded myself that because we had/have intellectual conversations all the time, we were being grown up. But I was still shit scared of telling him how I felt in case he sulked about it!!!

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 22:44

(oh good I said 'was' not 'am') #progress #reestablished

god I'm excited about actually valuing my own opinion

helpmeMN · 13/09/2011 23:21

thread-killing apologies :(

HerHissyness · 14/09/2011 00:12

I have just read through the comments I have received in reply to my wobble. i forced myself to read them all.

I know you all meant me to read them, I know you all meant them, but you know how hard it is to hear NICE about you... I did skim read them at the time, but wouldn't permit myself to read them properly IYKWIM.

All I can say to you all is a huge thanks, heartfelt, humbled, honoured thanks. You have all been my only support for all of this, and it's so very much appreciated. Whatever any one of you thinks I put in to help any of you, I can tell you I got it in return.

During the relationship I was isolated (understatement) and alone. When he left I was isolated and alone. I'm not alone anymore, and what is more, I'm never going to be alone again, am I? Grin stalkers the lotaye Grin

I've just realised something. Each phase of an abusive relationship has steps, levels you need to get through.

I'm probably too old to properly equate it to a computer game or whatnot, but you have to get past the demons in each level to progress to the next. You don't have to pass the level in flying colours, just a single star will do; holding onto your 'lives' for the allotted time/challenge and you progress, but you do have to score a certain number of points. Grin

What I've realised is that just because you got though the last level, doesn't mean you will keep belting through unchallenged.

You have the Level 1 - the lead up, where you see the relationship/battle for what it is.

You fight through Level 1 and you win, you get through, you leave.

Level 2 though is AS isolated as Level 1! you feel the same paralysis, self doubt, questioning. You don't feel able, entitled, worthy. you have to fight the good fight again, to get through and up to the next level. You have to put in all the tips, the bravery and courage you had in Level 1, back into Stage 2.

I learned that it's OK to doubt yourself, OK to feel scared, OK to worry that you are not ready. I've learned to ask myself why too. I also learned that I'm not alone in feeling this at this particular Level.

When the adrenaline of Level 1 has died down, you have to find the rocket pack to power you up to Level 2. If you don't make it the first time, there is always the RETRY button. In fact, there is ONLY the retry button, no QUIT button on this game!

Grin
MadameOvary · 14/09/2011 04:34

helpmeMN thank you. Smile and don't worry, you didn't kill the thread! I got fed up with slow connection and retired to my bed x

OP posts:
MadameOvary · 14/09/2011 04:39

Hissy thanks for articulating what I have been musing over for a while now - that there are stages to this, much like grief, and each stage is complex in itself. I think it is why we emerge out of these relationships with such zeal to help others, because it is so exhilarating to come out of the fog and into the sunshine!
(shakes pompons)

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