Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 4

[MadameOvary]

Hello everyone - end of last thread kind of took us by surprise!
Will copy in links etc

Good lord, I get distracted for a short while and find that not only has thead #3 reached its limit, but thread number 4 is already at page 16!! There really are some tossers in the world for us to fill up so much space.

Cheers to you all on this Friday night BTW.

still have not called to book myself onto Freedom Programme.

it starts Monday 19th. I'm cocooning myself again.

WHY can I not think I'm worth it enough to go to this? Why am I scared of this? What do I think will happen if I do go?

That I'd be forced to re-join the human race? this is daft!

Sod it, I'm going got email her and explain.

No. I think I might call WA and see if they can help.

Hey Hissy. Are you OK? Have you called WA yet?
Can I give you some (((((hugs)))))?

Just been reading through the first 16 pages and some things are really coming to the fore for me. I know I'm doing the right thing. Must keep going through the process. pickgo - feel some comeraderie here. You have my every sympathy and I'm right here with you. I'm a serial lurker BTW. Reading, sympathising, living the nightmare, etc.

Hey Hissy. Sorry you're feeling conflicted about the Freedom Programme and that we weren't there in real time to talk to you.

Can you answer the question you ask -- ie. what is it you're actually afraid of?

(as someone who is not based in the UK, I really envy you guys the Freedom Programme! And Women's Aid.)

Hissy, do you remember how you kept putting off reading St Lundy? Then eventually you did it and became a total convert. Well, the Freedom Programme could be the next good thing that you'll want to recommend to everyone. It's your duty to consumer test it, don't you think?

WA were fab. She said to contact the Outreach people, and perhaps they could arrange home visit.

I told her I didn't feel entitled to access that help, so haven't up until now

She said to go and do the Freedom programme, that it would help.

I still think it's the breaking down, I feel so angry about the tears, I have nothing to mourn, the person who left is a freak, a monster and not at all the person he led me to believe he was. I have totally boxed off that person, totally divorced that decade from my life. That wasn't me, I didn't really put up with that freak for 10 years.

T'other thing is that when a normal non-DV relationship breaks down, everyone says Ahh, what a shame, poor you, are you alright, do you need anything?

When a DV relationship breaks down, everyone says, Thank GOD you got rid of him! he was a twat to you, you deserve better than him, well done.

So we are robbed of sympathy, real sympathy. We don't give ourselves permission to cry, and no-one wants to talk about our abuse, it freaks them out.

How many threads on here were started by women talking about how DH annoys her by doing XYorZ and by the by she runs another incident past us and there is a shriek of consternation, intakes of breath and loads of faces. Then come the Lundy links, the Joe Carver links, the WA and refuge links, as it all becomes crystal clear that the issue she was talking about first is not her main problem.

Funny Annie! I told the girl on the phone about my Lundy fear.

You have a point.

It could be that perhaps I'm not ready. Mind you we discussed the 6m thing. The first 6m are driven by adrenaline. Now I have hit a plateau I think, running on fumes... The bravery I showed 6m ago is all well and good, but now I need to go up another step, and dig deep to do the next level.

Perhaps I need to understand that the next bit will take as much effort as the last bit did.

One thing the girl did say was that bottling it up, denial etc was not going to be a positive thing long term, that it must be dealt with sometime or another (you listening Mouse?)

The fear I have is a mild discomfort, it is a mild form of the one I had when I came back home.

Those of you that read a few of my recent posts on the 'other' group know a bit of the actual environment I lived in. Not unsurprisingly, when I came home I had a touch of agoraphobia. Felt sick, shaky and excruciatingly uncomfortable outside and among people.

I have fought that mostly, but I can still feel it. it's still an effort to go out.

new places, new people, groups....

Hey Hissy, do meet the outreach worker - you have every need and right to. What WA said was good - it shouldn't be bottled up for ever. The sooner you lance that boil, the quicker you'll recover. Can you speak/email the facilitator of the freedom programme. Imagine it's group physiotherapy - some members will have had one broken leg, others two and some in wheelchairs because they had really bad breaks. The person running it can't see which one you are and needs to see and hear how you feel. Perhaps the outreach worker can go with you or talk to you about doing it? Do post/PM or whatever and we can hold your hand.
Btw I do understand your thoughts about the trajectory of grief. Had argument with my sister who seemed to think it was so black and white - he is abusive, show him the door and move on. But it's not. Emotional abuse is the hardest to deal with because it's about trust in all sorts of ways and it's not one blow and all over. (not sure that's fair on those who've suffered physical abuse, though).
I sit here thinking our relationship involved just about everything that is considered extreme in anyone's life. Birth, death, MH, unemployment, moving, OW, long-term illnesses. It doesn't excuse the behaviour from ex, but perhaps it explains some of it. I am not condoning him btw - still say that you get help or ask for help and he still doesn't realise that and probably won't.
We are here for you Hissy, and doubly so because you have been such a support to so many ((((hugs))))

Great post notsorted
Hissy You know what? You'll do it when you're ready. There is just so much to face, and so many stages. You've dug a wee burrow and that's where you feel safe. You know you're holed up in there, you know you can't start to move on till you climb out. But for now you're having to build up strength to take that step.
We're here for you.

Hi all, sorry to post and run but too much to catch up on, been very hard to get on the thread. Wanted to update, though.

He's still here - think he's thinking we're working it out though whenever he asks I say I still want to separate. He is still on best behaviour though it's waning a bit: this morning DD knocked a coffee over and he ran for a teatowel (no point us both going) and so I took another bite of croissant and he said 'can't believe you're still stuffing your face, that's just bizarre behaviour'. I acted annoyed, he said 'you ok?' in the threatening voice and I said 'fine' (peacekeeping), then he closed the door (for kids) and said that I'm not being honest with him and I need to tell him what's wrong so he can do something about it. I say it's not my responsibility to tell him what is and what isn't acceptable to say to other people (this is a mild example).

He then gets out a note he's found that he wrote after an argument in June and reads it to me - apparently not to blame me , it just happens to be all about my terrible behaviour and how unsympathetic I was, how I store up resentment then am terrible cold and cruel and heartless blah blah. I got angry and he said 'why are you angry?' and I said 'well there wasn't much in that about what you could have done differently, was there?' and he said 'of course not, it was from my perspective'. It was just SO exasperating and I get the fast heartrate roundabout-head feeling like I'm going to have a panic attack. It was good in a way to say 'THIS! THIS IS WHAT I CANNOT DO! WE SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER! YOU'RE LITERALLY DRIVING ME INSANE!' so we agreed not to have talks like that o/s the counsellor's office. We're going on Tues and I think he's primed that he will be moving out (at least temporarily) next week.

Anyway, he KEPT following me around and carrying on talking until I basically had to practically cry 'I need the LOO!' because I'd been trying to go for about half an hour (of course he hadn't heard the ten times I'd told DD in the past twenty minutes), came out of the loo and he followed me into the bedroom and said (wait for it) his counsellor had asked if I had ever had close relationships with narcissists!!! So I said 'well, my Mum and my sister' and he agreed (although they are both WAY less textbook than he is) and then he said 'hmm, do you think you are one?' and I said 'no, I've thought about it, but no, I'm not a showoff' and he said 'well, I did wonder if I was one, but I don't think so.' What do I make of this? I don't really want to get into that with him, it's between him and his psychologist, isn't it? or does it mean that he's not one because he's (sort of) prepared to entertain the idea?

I can't wait for peace.

Sorry for self-indulgent rant, again disclaimer that I do understand my dilemmas are pretty minor compared to most.

Hope all are OK, well, as OK as can be.

oh, there goes another coffee... at least I can just clear it up my own way now he's out...

and yes, hissy, we are all here for you!

BeJ caught a bit of your posts, hope you're doing a bit better.

Should I buy the Lundy book? Do you think it will help me to empty my boxes?

Hissy - I'm so sorry to read that you are so very scared. The fear is what takes the longest to go. Long after they've gone, the fear remains until you are ready to deal with it and after ten long years of having to live the way you did, it's going to take time to let the fear go.

I wonder if sometimes, the fear keeps us going long after the abuse has stopped because we're just so used to it. It's what we hold inside, we don't share it, or talk about it, or show it. It's just there isn't it?

Hissy - I've not known you for that long but what I do know is that you have given hours and hours of support, of your life to others and that, my lovely, is awesome.

You are completely selfless. You are a strong beautiful woman who deserves to be happy, safe, loved and respected, and so much more. You will have that when you are ready to be loved, it'll happen.

But for now, you have to lean on us, on your friends. You have to take your time. You have to stop and breathe. You have to let it out when you feel strong enough to do so.

We will hold you up if you fall. You can let go, we'll catch you. You know this is going to hurt, it's way out of your comfort zone but you need to bury him in the past (literally ). You have to let go of the horrible times, the times he hurt you, the things that he did. You have to leave them all behind to move forward. To heal.

One. Step. At. A. Time.

With help, you will do it. If you're ready. You have to want to start unravelling your emotions. You have to find something to hold onto as you let yourself go.

You have given so very much, now it's time to take. xx

Hissy, you're ace. I owe you a huge debt already for the effort you've gone to to support, chivvy and entertain me and others on these threads.

And look at all the other lovely lovely people on this thread! I just had a little cry reading Mouse's post. It's starting to make sense to me that emotionally generous people tend to be the ones targeted by these abusers.

I just started the Freedom Programme last week. (I just did wk 2 on Friday.) There were all sorts in the room, all ages, from different social classes and, it seems to me, different degrees of freedom/'recovery'. Some people speak a lot, some not at all, some just cry . It's early days, but it's nice to be able to talk without censoring stuff, worrying that I'm freaking people out with my tales of woe. I'm no expert, but do you think that by addressing the abuse in the Freedom Programme/with the WA outreach worker this might help with why you don't fancy meeting new groups of people etc?

I hope everyone else is doing OK. Weekends tend to be the most difficult for the people on this thread, as they tend to mean more contact with the abusers. (OH home from work, OHs have contact with DCs of those who've separated, etc.)

He sent me a text asking if he's destroyed my life. That's what I said at some point recently.

I replied, no. but that as I am someone that comes from a family where my mother has BPD and hates me, my father was a coward and therefore complicit, my sister's both drug abusers, and in abusive relationships, he slotted into the pattern of behaviour beautifully and probably felt quite at home.

That is not verbatim, (DISCLAIMER:have to say that to make sure no one thinks I am a pathological liar and all!) but sums it up pretty well.

I was quite proud of that. Summed it all up beautifully, without "bigging up" his part.

thisis - eloquent as your answer was, it is just feeding his ego while keeping you down where he wants you - aware of him. He sees he can make you take the time to write that, all the while reminding you of it...please think about ignoring the texts, or, if you must reply, something short and pithy like "You wish"

Hi everyone, been busy with first week at school and general daily life stuff that you can't put off.

Helpme - I worry about what he said about narcissists. I think he's been snooping - have messaged you.

I have been failing to detach. The more I detach the more he gets involved. Starts doing stuff that he previously stopped doing (dishes, trips out, pickups). So there he is back involved again. But I still can't stand for him to touch me and every night I am forced to reject him. We did a workshop today with dcs and it was excruciating how much I was avoiding him but also excruciating how much he tries to make me somehow invisible. His involvement with me is completely false. He tries to minimise everything I say - reduces it - distracts others when I'm talking, ignores me, minimises what I say by not reacting at all, or responding to me with a question. It's this endless dripdrip of reducing my influence in the home (and probably in other areas too) that is what's killing me. I used to think it was the blowups and the angry talk, but he has held back from that for a while - the penny has finally dropped for him that it is not acceptable - but I still can't touch him. I am now finding the little things (the ignoring) being just as damaging and hurtful. What hurts my mind makes my body not want to be touched by his.

The solicitor said I should leave things for a few weeks but try to detach. It's really hard when you still hope that his positive moves are for real. But they are not. He was furious when he found out that dd wanted to go to new school alone on the second day. He was furious (quietly) because he had got up 'early' to take her. The first day he hadn't bothered to get up at all to see her go.

It's the invisibility that I find the hardest hurt of all. At least if there's a row and shouting, you exist and can be heard, in some kind of way.

If you're ignored, invisible,you don't exist, you may as well be dead. I have come to that point many times, from childhood onwards. I only realised that last year. I have never existed, not really, just as a sceen for the projections of the personality disordred around me.

In fact I did go on to say in my text reply, that I am not invisible anymore and do not provide a projection screen for anyone, none of them, no one.

This is why it got violent, never was for a decade, and suddenly the projection screen is gone, so the violence begins. I had taken to walking off if there was even a sniff of verbal abuse. Simply removing myself and saying that it wasn't acceptable to hurt me on any level, and that I would remove myself from his company if it happened. And I did.

He started slagging off MN on the beach in Salou. I calmly stated that MN had been amazing for me, that he should be grateful for it's existence and his words were making me feel bad in my tummy, and that I would be off to cool down, for as long as it took. I got back half an hour or so later, and he apologised. But I think that the rage started to really smoulder at that point.

The thing that is dawning on me these days is that so many people, since childhood, have KNOWN what was going on, since primary school. I know that mental health services are more sophisticated now, but still. One of my therapists said, on being told that my "mother" nearly had us removed from her into care...that we SHOULD have been.

I couldn't walk off and cool down as a child could I? It took 47 years to learn how to do that, and it got me punch in the face. As it did on the odd occasions I stood up to the witch.

No wonder I never bothered before. This really is all I have ever known. That's crap.

Hissy - when anyone new comes on this thread the first thing you tend to say to them is that it is not their fault, that they don't need to feel stupid, and just how it is a strong, intelligent, sensible woman can end up in a really bad relationship. What you're not doing is cutting yourself the same slack. You somehow expect better of yourself than you do of the rest of us. Why should this be? Are you arrogant enough to believe you're so much better than everyone else here that you have to do better than us? I doubt that very much! Actually you are pretty fabulous, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to make mistakes.

As for getting over it, I think you're right that people expect you to be so overjoyed at escaping from the abuse that you don't need support afterwards. It really doesn't work like that, does it? The very mind games that kept us there make it difficult to detach. We have to untangle our thinking patterns from the spaghetti-like mess Mr Headfuck knitted it into. Indeed, the theory of cognitive dissonance (which you have read about) suggests that it may be harder to get over a difficult relationship because you have to fight your own self-conditioning. Ten years of looking on the bright side, trying to make it work, accentuating the positive as the song says, ten years of your own self-training, needs to be unlearned. It's not going to be easy.

I by no means wish to belittle the experience of women who have to learn to live without a good partner, for reasons of bereavement etc. It's horrible for them. But not necessarily more horrible, just different.

barbie... am I getting the wrong impression thinking you feel a tiny bit guilty about not wanting to sleep with him now he's being "good"? Sex is something people do together because they both want to, when they feel good about each other, a way of getting close to someone you love. (Can't get any closer than right inside, can you?) It's not a reward for doing the washing up.

You see what he's doing now, and because you see it it won't work. He wants you invisible, dependent, helpless. You aren't and you won't be. If you were a little insignificant silly creature he wouldn't have to try so hard to shrink you.

Can I just say to everyone who is trying to manage the verbal tussles, probes, and apparent efforts to improve the situation.
it is all blah
Just noise. Whenever they speak, the sooner you train yourselves to hear a tedious drone instead of actual words, the better.
These conversations are simply further attempts at manipulation and maintaining the status quo.
Whatever they say, no matter how seemingly heartfelt, how articulate, how promising, they are just making noises in their throat.
This is why I am so keen on the non-answer. Because once you have passed a certain stage, once you have realised the extent of the abuse, and probably tried several times to communicate your feelings and been bitterly disappointed, then THIS is the point where you have to realise that their speech is more like the ramblings of your three year old than a fellow adult.

Does that make sense? Have had an actual three year old yakking through my attempts to type

Yes Madame, but when it's everyone and everything that you have ever known, where does it leave you?

And then dicovering that truth at 46?

If it was not for my kids I would have ended my life a long time ago.

It feels as though it's too late for me now to ever have a life, or ever have any of the things that I wanted. And knowing just how wrong it has always been kind of makes it worse.

I am aware that my family and their husbands are still living in that weirdworld, and sometimes I envy them, and wish I hadn't had all this therapy and was still ignorant. Albeit unhappy.

Because now I know, there is nothing at all. Nothing, no family, no husband, not even dysfunctional ones. And more unhappy than ever, because there is nothing left.

Annie...I wrote a song called "stuck in a loved up spaghetti head mess"

You can hear it if you want. I can post a weblink.