here we go. i knew it wouldnt take long....(long post!)

[ThatVikRinA22]

I have a very complex background, but to cut a long story short i have recently got in touch with my brother after about 12 years.

We had a very very bad upbringing. we were neglected and abused. i ended up in and out of care, he ended up homeless and on heroin.

i escaped our abusive parents at 15, married at 19, and have built a wonderful life for myself, with lovely DH and my two much loved children. I feel very guilty that i left my brother there, but i honestly thought he would be ok, they were very different with him while i was there. It seems when i left he got it, (then when he left, our mother got it)

My brother has only recently managed to turn his life around, but is doing very well, is off drugs, married, and has a child whom he appears to dote on. He admits he still has some issues around alcohol and cannabis.He has been nothing but honest with me.

we havent met up yet, as he is undergoing chemo treatment for hep c, but the plan is to meet up at some point. We do speak on the phone. I am being very careful, and am mindful of my job (i am a police officer)

Up until now, the subject of our "parents" hasnt really come up, though i am aware that our father (my step father to be precise) is dead and our mother now lives alone. My brother has chosen to stay in touch with her. I cut contact many years ago and am all the better for it - i did try for years to engage with her - but she is hard as nails, bitter, has a sense of entitlement that galls me and takes no responsibility for our past, and basically when i had contact with them both, i got very ill with panic attacks - when i cut contact they stopped. That says it all really.

My mother (and step thing) emigrated and never bothered to get in touch - i went on to move house and change my phone number.

i did find out when he (step thing) died, and my mother apparently then came back to live in the uk.

My brother says that she was very angry with me.

Anyway - i spoke recently to my brother who states that she is not averse to making contact with me. (ha ha ha fucking ha.)

he says she sends her best. (whatever the fuck that is)

he appears to want me to bury the hatchet, and appears to think i should be grateful that she wants some contact or something. he reckons he has dealt with his demons, and im very pleased for him, but the truth is that my life has been so much easier, calmer, nicer, without her in it. She will not tell me who my father is, and i cant forgive her for the things she put me through as a child.

I want a relationship with my brother. i want to meet his child and wife.

But now, with this rearing its head so quickly into our relationship - well i am a little spooked.
would you continue down this path?
would you continue to try and build some kind of relationship with my brother?
Would you give this woman a chance?
i dont want to end up feeling sorry for her, and i will, i always did, she is manipulative, and i have no doubt now, that she probably cuts a fairly pathetic figure - brother says she is an alcoholic.
but really - i feel like i got past all this and now.....i just dont need it. I have been so strong for so long, and i dont want that to waiver.

im sorry for the length of this post....and thanks if you got this far! i just want to hear what others think.
DH says i must do what i want, and truth is i would love to know who my father is, yet she always held this over me, and would never divulge even the smallest details, i dont even have a name., but i think she likes the sense of power and i dont want to give her that, i want to be free of how i felt all those years ago.

i guess my options are to back away completely from the whole lot of them.
to state clearly that i dont want contact with my mother
or to bite the bullet and allow contact with them all.

thoughts please....

sadly i think you are probably right about everything, and no reply from him, ill give it a few days.

Going to get DS to sort out my FB when he gets home, my initial thoughts were just to block her, but i am very conscious of the fact that he may well still allow her access to my profile, and also that she is able to read anything i say, either to him or just in general, its stopping me using it, and while its not that big a deal i feel i am having to alter my routines and watch what i do, which i was totally free of doing before any of this.

i am aware i have made a rod for my own back here.

You have, but you did it with the best of intentions, don't beat yourself up about it.

What are you going to get DS to do? Why not get him to de-friend (or whatever it's called, I'm a weird non FBer ) your brother? What is to be gained by keeping him on there? You can still keep in touch via email if you want to. If he gets shitty, simply say as you hadn't had a reply to your msg you felt this was the only way to keep your private life private from your Mother. He can choose to accept that or fuck off really can't he??

well ive had a reply. im posting it because i have no idea what to feel about it - i feel like perspective is becoming completely blurred....

his reply was as follows:

i really don't know how to reply to this!
but gonna try and like you if this ruins what we were tryin to build then i accept it.
re mum. i asked her not to send you a message, but she felt it was necessary, maybe she did not phrase it right but how do you send a message to someone you've not spoken to in a while(well a long time).
i understand what you are saying but i ain't a middle man, and i was quite offended by that. I got as much shite as you, to be honest when you left it got alot worse at home.
when i last got in touch with you after he died, you cut connections after because you could not cope. your cutting connections after that put me in counselling. I tried to prove I'd changed but you decided you could not cope with all this being brought back. like now i feel running is not good. send a message back to her describe how you feel! but to her not me. at least for the pair of you 'get some closure' cos if it's eating you as much as you say, you need to say it, hell i have to her face.

About face book, check your settings cos when i was having problems with xxx mum i changed all my privacy setting to no one but friends and if your not friends then you can't see. so it must be your settings.

i hope you can grasp the future
look at everything you've done, 2 lovely kid's, a house. your a copper, decent husband. and you've done all this in spite of your upbringing. well done chick.
but i just want you to know, hanging on to a rotten past will only take you down more.
stand up
say "i'm not that person, i'm stronger for what i went thro"

how do i begin with a response to that? i dont feel like i am getting anywhere, am i?

i dont know what to do now.

oh....and my friend, the one who is older and has always been more like a mum to me announced today that she is moving away

im feeling crap tonight. taken a sleeping pill (determined to sleep tonight) and off to bed......(take two at getting up at 5 for work)...

wont get back online until tomorrow night unless i get 5 mins down time at work but probably best not to steep myself in misery while im there.

Sorry to hear about your friend (other Mum) :( How come she's moving? How far away?

I hope you are asleep already. Sorry I missed you earlier - I need MN to give me more options with my Threads I'm On

Probably best to keep this and work separate.

Well - honestly?? His message was a lot better than I was expecting it to be. He does actually seem to care about you and does actually seem to be quite proud of what you have achieved. He does seem quite hurt about your shared past as well. I think boys & their Mums have very different relationships to girls & their Mums, irrespective of upbringing. I don't know if you are reading a 'tone' into it that I'm missing? I don't know if that's you imagining a 'side' to it that isn't there, or if I'm not seeing the 'side' that is there? But on the surface he seems quite willing to keep out of it between you and your Mum and seems to want to build a relationship with you.

However, I've only read this one message from him, not all the other messages, crap on his FB, exchanges with your Mum etc - so my view could be well skewed!!

Did you check your settings?

I thought his message came across as fair to be honest. I too can't see anythink sinister in it.

He doesn't seem like he is trying to force the issue between you and your mum.

I understand. I have had a very similar thing going on with my (suspected alcoholic and emotionally messed-up) half brother and my (now dead) useless father - although I must say in my case there was no abuse, just estrangement and neglect.

I think you should make it clear to your brother that you would love to rebuild a relationship with him, but that you have no interest in seeing your mother. He must understand that that is a condition of your relationship with him - that he must not pressure you, or be a conduit for her bitter and entitled messages and opinions. I would also recommend that until you only give him your mobile number and no landline or address for the time being, and meet up with him on mutual territory, in case your mother pressures him into giving her your details and you find her on your doorstep.

Vicar,

All I have done right now is click on the thread, read your OP, realise it's one I read before then skip to the end to your last couple of posts to "see what's happening."

On that basis, ALONE, I'd say his email sounds quite fair, and also quite loving and touching.

I am going to read all the stuff in the middle this morning and see if I change my mind.

Hmmm... having read it all now... I think it is all a bit off, and now is a matter of trust. So sorry for all the dreadful things that have happened to you, Vicar.

I'd probably end up replying

Dear Bro,
Thanks for your reply. Like you I am desperate for the two of us to have a good relationship, but the big thing is that I absolutely CANNOT have any relationship with X. X's seeing my facebook page and photos has horrified me. The thing is, Bro, my privacy settings ARE set so that no one but my friends can see them. So she MUST have seen them at your house. I need to be absolutely certain that this won't happen again, either by you making sure it doesn't, or by de-friending you. If I do end up de-friending you, please please know that it's not you I am de-friending, it is X I am trying to get away from. I will always be your sister and your friend.

well, to be honest its a more mature response than i expected.

but he must have let her view my FB because my settings ARE private. and he is in denial about being the middle man - when he relayed these messages from my mother he said not to shoot the messenger and that he was 'just the middle man' so thats bollocks. When i asked him if he had any news (meaning about him) he asked me if i was sitting down before telling me that my mother was speaking of me in a "warmhearted" way which "surprised him" - he is testing the water for her, without a doubt, and even if he isnt aware of it.

the rest i am probably reading too much into because i have seen the rubbish he puts on FB and him and my mother encourage each other.

considering what to reply with.

I'm wondering if he is right... In not replying to her am I just running away? Should I air my grievances with her? Would it give me some closure? Could
I then get on with my life, knowing I said my piece but without letting her back in? When my brother speaks sense I think maybe I will like him.... I dont know what ro do anymore. Maybe I'm just jealous of their fluffy gaming banter on FB... But he does talk shite on there quite a bit too and no one calls him on it, she just enables him....(scuse mistakes - on phone)

I've been following this thread. i really feel for the crap situation you are in.
The thing that strikes me over and over is the facebook issue. If you were just trying to build a relationship with him, without the facebook element, then so much of this contact with your mother wouldn't have happened. Couldn't you just remove facebook from this, email him (not facebook message) to tell him that you are concerned re security/privacy/whatever, tell him you will continue contact but off facebook. Defriend him, block her.

Whilst ever you have this tool for contact, she will use it, and he may be tempted to abuse it. So, just take that element away.

I know. You are right. I do need to do that, but I think I might just get through a bit more of the counselling first, I am still swaying between scrubbing FB altogether and using it to reply to the message with both barrels. Then deleting. I. Realise absolutely that FB Is the problem here, for now anyway.

I've been giving thought to your post for some time and I intend to write what will inevitably be a long response within the next few days .

However, at the present time I would suggest that you do not rush to respond to your brother's latest message, or initiate direct communication with your mother, as it is unlikely that you will obtain 'closure' and may become sucked in and dragged down by either protracted corresponence, or by the myriad feelings and emotions any response from her, and further responses from him, may invoke.

My reasoning is that you have an abusive childhood's worth of grievances that you may feel a need to air with your mother, but the reality is that she will never be able to address them to your satisfaction.

Quite frankly, even if she were to spend the rest of her life on her knees begging your forgiveness it wouldn't be enough to expiate her abysmal track record of failing to protect you from harm.

As an aside, it's extremely tedious interacting with anyone who continually adopts the 'sorry' position in relation to their real and perceived faults and I have no doubt that, in the unlikely event that she were to 'fess up and admit her culpability, you'd soon find her repeated apologies boring especially if, as I suspect, they were but a hollow attempt to justify herself and her behaviour.

IMO the only missive you need to send to your mother is one which acknowledges the elephant in the room that always been the hook she uses to bait you, and that is the identity of your father.

To this end I would suggest that you cut straight to the chase by sending something along the lines of:

'As you know, I have repeatedly asked you to tell me the name of the man who fathered me together with any accompanying details you may remember such as his age and family background.

I am making this request once more because advances in genetic science render it necessary for me to be in possession of historical medical knowledge that may prevent inherited traits and predispositions negatively impacting on my own health, and on that of my child(ren), my future grandchildren, and beyond.

Please know that until such time as you reveal the name of my biological father there can be no further communication between us, and that should you fail to provide this information in any response you may make to this message you will not hear from me again'.

By sending a cold, factual request for the information that she has hitherto cruelly denied you in order to retain a position of power over you, and in following through with no further contact should she fail to accede to your request, I believe that you will be able to begin to obtain some sense of release from the many ties that bind you to the nightmare that was your childhood.

In addition, by sending such a message you will be demonstrating to her that you are no longer the vulnerable child that she once tormented and that her game's over - truly, she's a busted flush who only has the power to hurt you again if you let her.

FTR, I doubt very much that you're 'jealous of their fluffy banter', If anything I suspect you are bemused that, given your associated histories, they are able to 'carry on regardless' in an inconsequential manner which, to me at least, suggests the possibility that neither of them are the full shilling.

Going to disagree slightly with some of the others.

Ignore everything your brother says before the but, the but completely negates it. He is simply saying 'what should she have said after so long?' not that 'she should not have contacted you'. Hope that makes sense!

You know that your settings are set so that only friends can see them. Therefore you know that the only way she can have seen your page and commented is via him. He is passing the buck on this.

Plus you know what he has told you himself and that he is testing the waters by passing on your mother's comments, he is now denying this and saying you have offended him!!!

If you want any relationship with him you are going to have to accept that he will over the months/years drop your mother into the conversation in some way and feed information about you, your life and family back to her. I think it is a given.

I don't think you should respond to your mother. The best way to have no contact is to have no contact. Not to reply, wonder if she has read it, worry that she is going to reply and then you may have to give her head space and deal in someway with her reply yet again. She is not the type to let it go quietly if you tell/ask her to go do one. You will then be exactly where you are in a quandary wondering whether to reply to her or cut your brother off still, just further along after already suffering the last couple of months.

The best response is nothing.

I cannot tell you what is the right or wrong thing to do. Only you can make that decision and it is not an easy one. All I can say is since you allowed your brother back into your life a little you now have all the shit to contend with that comes from your mother

Sorry your friend is moving away. She will always be your friend no matter the distance

Vicar, sorry I haven't really been around lately. Hope you're sleeping better now. Did you have another session today?

I think your fb conversation with your bro tells it all, really. FWIW, she may know his fb password and be accessing his page without his knowing, or she may go round and access his profile while he's doing other stuff. It doesn't really matter though, does it? Do just check your settings are friends only and not friends of friends, just to be sure.

My own view of this is, no matter how convenient fb is, it is insidious and so open to abuse that it's not worth it. I have stopped using it, but go on about once every couple of months just to check my brother's memorial page. Otherwise, everyone has my email address and can use that. Or the phone. Or write a letter!

How would you keep up contact with your bro if you didn't use fb, and wanted to pursue the tentative relationship?

Vicar, I am so sorry you are having such an emotional and difficult time. Counselling brings up lots of things we thought were safely buried, but it is worth it; you are worth so much, you are worth the effort.

thank you both, this is why i am on MN, wise words indeed.

Izzy - that is quite tempting - if she wants to show how she has truly "mellowed" then the best test of this would be to ask her that exact question. But again, i think i need to work through this with the help of a counsellor before i do anything.

and i does baffle me, i do wonder how my brother can joke along with her on fb, i do find it weird, thats true, its as though he is saying he has said all he has to say and now has found some peace with her, and i dont think, i cant imagine ever doing that, you are absolutely right, i think one of the things i have found so shocking in this whole process has been the wealth of emotion this has stirred in me, such sadness at times, when my defences were up, i didnt have to feel it.

and Xales - again right, the message from him did catch me off guard because it seems well written (i wonder if his wife did it actually - that is not his usual style of writing) but the content is passing the buck, at first i felt guilty that i had said anything. and he alluded to the fact that when i left things got back for him at home, again i have some guilt around that because i didnt for one moment imagine that would happen, he seemed loved and wanted while i was there - i always thought my SF hated me, that the problem was me, but now i realise he was an abusive nasty little drunkard who as long as he had someone to vent on it didnt matter who, but Db knows i have guilt around that. And....there really is only one way she has looked at my profile and it is through him, thats true.

i have no idea why i didnt just let sleeping dogs lie, this is just all a bit much, and yes i suspect what ever i do now with regard to my brother, he will not understand that i do not want to speak about her, with her, and he has absolutely certainly gone back and said everything i have said to him - she asked him to ask me (are you still with me? good....) to add her as a friend on fb....why in gods name would i do that? then when i said as much, and that if she had anything about her she would contact me and not go through him - bingo! message appears, he has acted as an intermediary no matter what he says - its only because ive not gone for it that he is now distancing himself. He has swung from telling me she is his best friend to that she doesnt really bother much with him....i dont know what on earth to think tbh.

anyway....lots to think about again. thank you for the advice and new perspectives....best try and get some sleep. i think i will talk this through in counselling - i am there again on Monday.

x post - jux.

thank you - next session is on monday, i hear what everyone is saying re FB, i agree. i need to bin it.

i think i would probably have less contact with him without it, but he tends to announce most things on there (new job today for instance), for some reason i find it hard to ditch it - curiosity maybe? but again - i know what i need to do and i will do it. i just need to tell him. and youre right about it being open to abuse.

we do text occasionally- speaking on the phone hasnt been too successful so far - he talks over me quite a lot and doesnt actually listen to what im saying - or he forgets it 5 mins later and goes back to this original misconception....our supposed meeting up was a prime eg of that - he asked me to meet him on one date - i said i couldnt do that but suggested another - he said yes fine - then a few days later i got a message saying he couldnt make the date (the one he had suggested originally and i had already said no to! so i gave up then....not planned anything else and dont intend to just yet)

phone conversations have been polite but one way i feel.

right, off to bed, will look at all this again tomorrow, it often seems clearer the following day.

thanks again all - all your opinions are really valuable and are helping me, so thank you.

It seems to me that if she had 'truly mellowed' your mother would have volunteered this information without you needing to ask, vicar, and this is why I see no percentage for you should you engage in anything other than essential communication with her.

Given the continuing advances in genetics, the need to know your father's name and the medical background of your paternal family is a legitimate concern. Without this information, you can only offer up half of the equation should a gp or other doctor ask 'is there any history of this in your family?'.

It was inevitable that they would rouse from their slumber, but the dogs will go back to sleep once you have reassured and comforted them with the help of the ever growing insight that you are continuing to amass through your work, through counselling, and through the process of osmosis that is simply getting on with your life.

When it comes to these 2 particular individuals, I would suggest you adopt the maxim 'when it doubt, do nowt' because both of them would appear to be adept at twisting words and circumstance to suit themselves, and each has the ability to disturb your currently fragile equilibrium.

With the exception of your employer-funded counselling sessions, I would strongly advise you to refrain from confiding any information about past/present issues pertaining to your childhood to any of your colleagues no matter how sympathetic or approachable they may appear to be.

I don't think you need to bin FB, before you added your B, you enjoyed using it, you just need to defriend him. No matter what settings you have you are always going to see things on there that upset you. You are watching him in the way one watches an ex and it's just as unhealthy.

If he wants to build a relationship with you then he can do that by making an actual effort and emailing you. This will also help you in not attaching to his DD.

I know it's tempting to keep him on FB and watch what's happening - but it's like watching a car crash and kicking yourself at the same time.

Months ago we talked about asking your mother that question (who your father is) - I said then that I felt you should, in pretty much the way izzy suggested tonight & I still think you should. It's your one chance to know who he is and if she still wont tell you then you don't have to have any futher contact with her. Don't get into any dialogue with her - just tell her that until she's disclosed that information there will not be any contact whatsoever.... it doesn't mean that if she does tell you, that you have to have any further contact with her.

Hope some of that makes sense - I have a thumping headache and should be asleep!

Didn't you say your brother has ASD? That could explain the phone calls. I would also ditch facebook, and just keep in touch with him by email.
The bit about "facing" her is pop-psychology. Sometimes we have to run away from our fears, sometimes we have to face them. First one = a Bear, second one = leaving the house.
Do talk to your counsellor about all this.

FWIW I agree with the posters who have suggested asking your mother outright in an unemotional way about your father. That information, it seems to me, is really all you want from her - understandably. So I think you should turn this unwanted interaction from her into a positive for yourself and just ask.

Chances are you won't get the information you want, but at least you will know that you have taken the opportunity to ask again when it presented itself, and if she refuses to tell you again, it will reinforce in your mind that she is not worth all of this emotional turmoil you are experiencing at the moment.

Some of this can be managed by your settings on facebook:

You block her (click her profile, scroll down and find the option on the left near the bottom);

You go to your privacy settings and change everything to "custom" and exclude your brother specifically from seeing your posts/whatever;

You manage your photo albums by clicking on them and changing who can see them, again, excluding him specifically if you think he is showing them to her via his own profile.

That should sort what access he has, and through her own account will make you impossible to find.

If you've got any specific questions about how to do it, ask on the boards, or google "how do I...on facebook?". It can seem complicated, but there is generally a way to put pretty much everything on lockdown.

HTH- good luck x

FB changes it's security settings all the time! So long since I used it I've no idea about it any more, really. Do what BOF says and then you can carry on using it without either of them being able to get anywhere near your profile.

Tell your bro to text you; have you got an old phone and spare sim which you could use exclusively for him? You'd then be in complete control of when you have contact as you wouldn't even need to look at the phone unless you wanted to.