After divorce, trying to move on is like doing a square dance with both feet tied together. Update.

[Wisedupwoman]

First came to MN (a life-saver) in March:

Then DH, now XH (very quick divorce) was into second OW which I found out through his deceitful, sloppy and disgusting attempts to take the cowards way out. Could not believe the man I loved for 20 years had spent 4 years lying and cheating his way through life and who then went on to try and manipulate all our DC's (and still is, divorce doesn't change anything).

We are now into mediation, I have a sol who is waiting in the wings to advise on settlements. I have, despite all the turmoil, secured a better job on higher salary and our DD has a place at 6th form. XH has been living with OW since he left, and I went no contact within 2 weeks of his leaving. He hates this as he is unable to control the situation so interrogates DC's - my adult DS's have cut him out, yet XH still tries with eldest DS, who finds it hard not to feel sorry for XH despite his awful behaviour. All our friends have cut XH out, none of them liked him it turns out and his colleagues have long called XH 'the artful dodger'. So this was a man who led a double life and I have been trying to come to terms with this and move on.

This thread is about that - trying to move on and deal with the reality that whilst I am trying to hold my chin up and tits out, XH is going to be a part of my life through our DD whether I like it or not.

I want to give my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to everyone who has thus far been so wonderful and unstinting in their MN support for me - who have walked the journey with me even in the midst of their own sadness.

Congratulations sweetie - I really, really mean that.

But please (and I hope you know that I have the best of intentions here) isn't this all a bit, well, too soon?

I know you say you're the marrying kind, and I'm trying to relate to that - but please make sure you would marry this man whatever. And what I mean by 'whatever' is this: If a couple of years ago, you'd met NM in bar, or on the tube, or in M&S, anywhere.....would you have felt the same about him? Would you have sacrified PTM for him?

I just think, in my heart of hearts its way too soon. And that is partly because I feel right now absolutely certain that I'll never, ever marry again. I LOVE being independent and single. And because (sod's law) I don't want a man - I'm getting plenty of attention, and I still feel happier on my own.

If you dig deep and it's what you want, then I wish you all the luck in the world. But please make sure that you're doing this because he's the best man you've ever met, and the timing might be off, but he's the one, and no other reason.

You deserve the best.

Hello saff. Knew you'd be along soon with more wisdom in your little finger than most of us have in our entire bodies!

YOu know what? NM and me have had that very conversation about 'chance meeting' if everything else in our lives hadn't been the way they are.

I know, beyond any doubt whatsoever that I would've wanted him, really wanted him, if I'd met him before. He feels exactly the same.

We just click in every way and that's a hard connection to ignore.

But the difference between us was this: that I also know me. He feels sure we'd have had an affair and he would've left his DW for me. I know I wouldn't have done that, no matter how strongly I was attracted - and I've told him that too. I'd have dreamed and yearned but I was committed to ptm even when I didn't like him very much - I've been up front about that too just in case he was in any doubt about my beliefs wrt what commitment means to me.

I hear what you're saying though. It has all been very quick and that's why in many ways the distance we live apart and our responsibilities to our families is helping us not to ACT too quickly. It has forced us to slow things down and take things one step at a time. There's no big announcements to friends and family - we are just stating our wishes to each other and thinking about the how and when it can all happen but in the knowledge that other things must take place first.

For now, we are happy being together whenever possible and there's no sense of desperation to 'fuse' with each other or exclude others. That tells me this really is properly grown up stuff which liberates us to be playful at the same time. We laugh alot. We talk alot. We snog endlessly. We listen to each other. We spend time with other people as a couple and individually. And it feels right, very right.

I don't think I could have wished for a better scenario really. But who can say what will happen in the future?

There are no guarantees are there, as you and I both know only too well.

OMG - I leave the country for a week and look what happens ...

Congratulations Wisey - to both of you. You sound like you have your head screwed on in terms of timing and I'm glad DD's on message.

"He feels sure we'd have had an affair and he would've left his DW for me."

Be very, very wary of this enormous red flag. Your views on fidelity are obviously very different. He thinks it's okay if you fall in love with someone else. You don't.

Congratulations Wisey! I am very pleased that you are clearly so happy.

I also echo what others have said in respect of the speed, the length of time you've been divorced, and the point that Charbon has just made also registered with me.

We all know you are grounded and sage though, and I have no doubt the future will be positive for you.

I am about to PM you (and Saffy) actually. You were both once very kind to me when I needed it most. I was under another guise at the time and I wanted to update you on my situation.

Love and strength to you.

Thank you Charbon for your warning. Of course this was a red flag for me too - however, I don't think it's wrong per se to fall in love with another person whilst you're still in a relationship but I do think it's wrong to act on it by having an affair. We can't help who we feel attraction to can we?

As such I've made it abundantly clear that were he ever to cheat he could expect me to walk away and not look back. And I mean it. So if his views on fidelity are really that different (and I don't think they are actually, but he was speaking as a man who couldn't remember when last his marriage had been happy) then we simply won't make it further than where we're at now.

No half way measures. None.

I hope you're right WUW, but I'd sound him out on this if I were you. I don't think you can help being attracted to others. I do think you can help getting to the stage where you fall in love and definitely that you can prevent yourself having an affair.

It sounds like he is saying that had he met you while he was still married, he would have been unfaithful - assuming you had been willing. Perhaps he thinks that is a very romantic thing to say; that he would have been so captivated, he would have ditched his morals for you?

Are you romanced by that? It would leave me cold, personally.

Fidelity shouldn't be dependent on the qualities of the person who comes along, or even the state of the relationship left behind. I'd imagine you'd want to be with someone who understood that and had those beliefs, after all you've been through.

The love in romantic relationships will always be conditional, but fidelity shouldn't.

I've 'lurked' on your thread for a while and never had anything to add before now, so I'm sorry if it seems like I'm raining on your parade in my first posts, but given what you've evidently been through, this made my hackles go up. I also wondered whether you mentioned it in your post because it hadn't sat well with you either and you wanted to validate your own unease about it?

Hopefully, this is him giving a misguided compliment but even then, perhaps he doesn't know you as well as he should, to think you'd be wooed by it?

Hello, I've been following this thread for a few months (since my stbx left me) and it has given me great inspiration and comfort about being able to move on. So thank you OP and all the other Wise contributors. I would like to go back to the beginning - ie the original thread. I cant find it - could anyone point me in the direction of it?

Another lurker here - I would consider that comment as a red flag as well.

Many affairs happen because a friendship gradually goes down the slippery slope into infidelity - sadly being in love and happy will not affair proof your relationship, as its more about the individual's personality, vulnerabilities and beliefs.

I would suggest that you talk to him about his views and beliefs on infidelity, about boundaries etc - you may find Shirley Glass's website helpful for this.

I did Charbon, I sounded him out last night before I read your post so my instincts haven't deserted me, I'm relieved to say. And you're not raining on my parade at all, your posts are helpful and insightful.

I raised it directly with him. We had (another) long conversation about his and my beliefs. Bottom line is that he was, and is, a man who believes in fidelity - to quote him - "totally Wisey, on both sides it's total fidelity or nothing". I can only say that nothing he said raised any red flags, and if there had been any I'd have explored them - he's getting a great package in me, and he needs to be able to step up if I'm going to invest long term in him!

What he said in those early days was a rather clumsy way of telling me how attracted he was to me and in lots of ways I've been subtly checking that out all along - I still have the memories of the many times when I could have checked ptm out and didn't, so I've learned that it doesn't pay to trust in hope over common sense.

All I can do (and did) is what I'm doing, I don't let anything pass that doesn't feel quite right (and tbh, there has only been that one important issue which we are now discussing here), I don't do anything I'm not entirely happy to do, I don't compromise my integrity or my family's security.

I agree with you, fidelity is about one's personal vulnerabilities and beliefs in the business of making and keeping loving relationships alive - and he's given me many opportunities to gain some information about his belief system, not only about his situation but also what he thinks about friends who have divorced over OM and OW, the advice and support he gives them and the guidance he gives his DC's in their relationships. I've probably learned as much about him through how he talks about friends and family than what we have talked about in terms of us, really. I've searched for signs of 'editing' and there are none.

Actually, I don't think fidelity is going to figure in all this. it's around in the background for me because of ptm but I think there'll be other important differences which we'll negotiate in give and take.

Dustland the orginal thread was deleted because my identity was compromised, i'm sorry to say. Happy to pm with you if you want to though.

Thank you all. I put my Christmas tree up yesterday and for the first time in years I spent time on it - not because I've a NM but because I'm free of the dead weight of a dead marriage.

That's the best bloody Christmas present I could've wished for.

Just popping in to say that PtM and OW are not together any more. Apparently ptm wasn't happy living in a tiny cramped and very noisy house with a OW who was skint.

He would apparently like it if we were talking again so he can come and help me decorate DD's bedroom.

That'll be a no then.

Happy Christmas to all

Merry Christmas to you Wisey. Not sure how to reply to the news though - v long term lurker who has name changed. Bombshell or did you have an inkling?

I had an inkling gurl. He's been asking both eldest DS and DD about me again - should he have sent a birthday card, am I still going to the gym, how am I etc.

The bombshell bit is him even thinking that I'd want him anywhere near me - but then, he always was an egotistical twat.

I feel some kind of natural justice is being done, just like people said it would. He looks very tired and unhappy every time DD sees him it seems. What goes around and all that.

It occurs to me that a fine New Year gift to yourself would be to apply now for your Absolute, Wisey, even though PTM will benefit from your largesse by being set free to roam

Inspired, Izzy, absolutely inspired!

Ah... so the shine has apparently come off that particular bauble. He's got plenty of time now to consider whether his lying and infidelity were worth it. Plenty of time to come up with a reason to blame someone/something else.

His questions may be a sign of remorse, and that would be some comfort to you. However, I do think that the type of person who behaved like that towards you is only mouthing platitudes; they don't really feel remorse but feel a need to make the right noises to those around them.

Sorry to be so cynical but my experience tells me that introspecion aint one of their traits. They still feel justified that they 'had to get out' and will eventually dust themselves off and start again. Their ego is teflon-coated and any blame attached will float around leaving a sense that they were right to do what they did - whatever the cost to their DCs.

Great idea about the Absolute . Make your new life without him. He'll only hurt you with empty promises and his ego will be telling him that you really can't manage without him...

introspection

God, you're well rid of him Wisey. He doesn't like the new life with new woman - the woman he blew his family apart for - because she's skint, their house was noisy and small.....well, bless his little days-of-the-week cotton socks. We all know, us who live in the real world, that if you're with the right person, you'd live off value soup in a tent with them.

He is so much like Twunt, it's spooky. McNaughty has it spot on - I know that Twunt is so far up his own backside that he would never in a million years take responsibility and regret his actions. His sense of entitlement is unbelievable. His happiness is more important than other peoples, his ego huge.

These guys don't feel the same way that we do Wisey, they don't know real unconditional love like we do, they only love themselves really.

Yes, of course he can come and help you decorate DDs room - use him as a wet rag, and wipe the bloody floor with him.

And get that Absolute!

X

We all know, us who live in the real world, that if you're with the right person, you'd live off value soup in a tent with them spot on Saff, my NM ain't rich, doesn't live in a huge house, is suitably and genuinely humble when need be and he doesn't beliieve hie's landed himself a gold mine in me - but- we like each other, really like each other, and all that stuff isn't important.

Yes, of course he can come and help you decorate DDs room - use him as a wet rag, and wipe the bloody floor with him. ARF!!!!!!!!!!

McNaughty yes, he doesn't really feel remorse, he'll be fine as soon as the next fish comes along and he can reel her in. Thank god it won't be me.

Having lost the catch of his life through his own stupidity, Wisey, I can't wait to hear what PTM dredges up next but I hope she's got the sense to throw herself back before she becomes completely entangled in his net.

Oh Wisey, this has made my Christmas! Long time lurker who has name changed but have followed your thread in awe. I'm afraid it just gives me great satisfaction that Karma does get them in the end but then I'm a vindictive cow! I know you'll have the strength to keep trampling him underfoot as you have done all the way along. Gives me hope that my ex P will soon get his come-uppance. I wish you every happiness in your new life.

Wisey good luck with NM. I also have teensy reservations but that is because you were battling so much when you met NM and the speed with which you met someone suitable on the internet dating lottery. It can happen though, and I sincerely hope your local hat stores do very well from you when you are ready. Meanwhile, you just luxuriate in being adored .

As for PTM, mentally doing told-you-so dance for him. As usual, you are being dignified but unabashed schadenfreude chez Handcart this afternoon. Things really couldn't get any worse for him, could they? Oh wait, yes. That will be when he eventually realises you have truly moved on.

PTM is as predictable as ever, aaaah, who will sort his socks out now? Thought OW was minted? Or was it her husband's cash that's now dried up.

Predict that - since you obviously won't give him the time of day (duh! does he really think he's even fit to be your decorator?) - PTM will soon move on to another woman and spin himself a new history.

Hope you, DD, NM and the whole family have a lovely Christmas. What a roller coaster year for you wisey! Hope 2012 is a really good one.

(I give NM benefit of doubt on the fidelity thing, sounds like clumsiness and keenness rather than a red flag.)

(and am with helena on revealing in PTM's misfortune , because still really, really don't like him and will be on the lookout for men in bad trousers in 2012)

Tis not karma, thermalsocks, it's their own uselessness, as saffy says.

(Tho' see what you're saying).

ooops, meant revelling, not revealing, would not want to see any part of PTM revealed!