Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 3

[ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow]

New thread - will copy our library of links in the following posts

Funny you asked that today, bj. I've just been trying to explain to a counsellor why: [a] I feel my identity is all flying around me in pieces, since I cut the abusers out of my life -> nobody telling me who I am & what to do; [b] Her suggestion of timetables, schedules and tick-lists is a bad idea for me at this stage -> equivalent to bossing myself around.

She didn't get it. But we did do some useful work, as a result of which I'll be trying to forecast my energy levels - eg, builders in next week so I'll be knackered afterwards - and write down some priorities tailored to the circumstances. I also discovered I'm more comfortable with 'boundaries' and 'priorities' than 'rules' and 'schedules'. Words do matter.

Ho, hum. We'll see! I've put in a formal request for PTSD counselling. There will be far greater pressures on the service - looting victims, returning soldiers, etc - but, even if it's an incredibly long wait, it'll be nice to talk to somebody without having to explain the problem all over again.

I'm seeing a shrink too garlicbutter, and have had some weird realisations as a result of questions pyschologist has asked me.. for one thing i don't seem to have a self-image. she was asking me about ME, and all I could say was what image I thought other people made of me, the impression I was giving others.

also, she was trying to make me think of things I would say to make myself feel better if I felt I was being judged, and I couldn't do it. All I could do was justify my decisions, defend myself. I wasn't getting it to begin with. She had to repeat herself a few times and even when I 'got' what she was saying, I couldn't think of what I would say to myself to make myself feel better.

Does this make sense to you!?

Interesting to hear other people's experiences in counselling. to my surprise really my psych doesn't really allow me to talk about time with x. That is a bit odd to me. But at least four years on I can handle that, If I'd gone to see her four years ago and not been able to talk about the way he'd treated me I would have been frustrated and baffled. But now I do get it.

It makes perfect sense :) I've been very admiring of your posts lately, Bandwithering, so evidently your therapy's making a fantastically wise woman of you!

My first therapist made me list fifteen of my great qualities. In the session, I couldn't even think of one - that first list took me over a fortnight. I do it regularly, now (and can write more than 15 )

I've had quite a bit of trouble, over the years, getting past various counsellors' resistance to explaining current problems in terms of past events. They are, quite rightly, averse to letting a client "blame" other people for their issues - but this isn't about blaming, it's more about unpicking the damage that was done in order to carry out repairs.

That's pretty much what happened this afternoon. Counsellor asked, "But why can't you bring yourself to ?" I sketched the underlying reason from childhood. She said "That's the cause of it, but what's stopping you now?" I ended up saying it's the same as asking an agoraphobic why she can't go out of her front gate.

To be fair to her, she's a CBT counsellor not a psychologist, but I confess to feeling pissed off. We did get to some helpful stuff in the end, though. It would just be so great to see a therapist who understands the damage abuse can do to a human personality - like that first one.

You're lucky to have had the same person for 4 years! Mine always move away ... I don't think it's to do with me

really?!? i thought therapists would HAVE to know about the damage abuse can do?? dont they?

Ive never had counselling. Thinking it might be useful at this point-a lot swirling about. Alot of ishooos from esarlier life that I never thought were until now. cant afford it.

is it a bit hit and miss then?

I feel the need to jump in here and champion the inner child therapy that I did. The therapist, Brenda, changed my world, completely. It was 24 weeks in all...and I threw myself into it totally. I was doing the Freedom Programme at the same time, and it was felt that the two were complementary.

I put everything I had into the inner child stuff...a real girly swot....for once being miss "perfect" paid off.

Not that the other counselling was bad in any way, but this really worked on my lack of identity, why that had happened, what to do about it etc. I was advised to NOT read anything about it whilst in therapy, and because I was such an obedient soul, of course I didn't...no really, I didn't. But the minute it was finished, I devoured every book, article etc etc like a starving bear.

It was incredibly tough. I cried 'till I threw up. I felt like decades of grief pouring out of me.

I was confronted this week by the reality of someone telling my "mother" that I had stuff going on this week. I didn't feel over adrenalised, didn't feel anything much. The person who had been in touch with her was in a much worse state as they didn't understand the full impact of trying to deal with a PD person. They do now, and have found it quite distressing I think, and totally incomprehensible. They have discovered what I know and have grieved for. Unless she has the starring role....she couldn't give a shit.

Hence my choice of pd husbands.....hmmmmm.

I have to say that mumsnet was a pivotal force for good too. Someone called Grace, was/is one of the most extraordinary people I have never met....truly a wonderful, bright, insightful, kind, generous and beautiful human being. An honour to have that woman in my life....truly.

That's an exercise I'll have to make myself do tomorrow garlicbutter. List off 15 good qualities. Think I'd struggle to get to three

Although to begin with I wanted to rant and vent about my x, I guess it is more useful to examine why I put up with his behaviour, why I ended up in an abusive relationship etc.. also, she has said to me that my core self worth is not actually that low (which is good) but that I have a lot of negative voices! so basically it's the dialogue in my own head I need to change. I need those voices to be kinder to me, instead of so critical.

Bejeezus, I went to see a counsellor through the gp just after I left my x. I was a mess then. I was devastated, trying to fend off his cycle of niceness,martyrdom & bullying me to go back to him. I was trying to get to grips with all the practical arrangements and my new 'status' as a single parent!!! The gp/counsellor was rubbish. She didn't identify that I had post traumatic stress. And sorry if that sounds really self-indulgent! but I think I did. the 8 years with him was like war. And when I got 'home' I was even more of a basket case, yet I had functioned on auto pilot in an anaesthetised kind of way for years before I'd finally left. Anyway, this gp told me to get a job! I was a bit I honestly didn't think I could put together a cv and job hunt and get through and interview without crying! HONESTLY it makes me think arrhghghghg to think of her listening to people in such distress and to suggest that they get a job. wtf.

But this woman I'm seeing now is much more highly qualified and she can get to the root of why I found myself in an abusive relationship, and why I'm so hard on myself. It's probably only possible to do that because I can talk a bit more calmly now, without crying and taking everything back to my x and all the things he did. Yes he treated me like an incompetent employee for years, but in order to make sure I never ever allow this to happen again I need to understand why I allowed it.

I have realised that I prioritised APPEARING to be happy over actually being happy. I got to that bit on my own. But she's definitely helping me figure out why I did that. As garlicbutter says, it's not easy. you're given an exercise, to answer a relatively simple question but because it's about YOU, you are suddenly paralysed and can't answer it. I could answer the same/question on behalf of my best friends I think.

so, wow, I've rambled here, but yes I definitely think that it's good, when you're ready. First I'd go to somebody who will allow you to vent and cry and rant. And then when you're ready for a bit of navel-gazing, you can crank it up a notch! I would have found this very hard work, very tiring and impossible really, about 2 years ago.

Garlicbutter, I just tried to think of my great qualities and the first one was that I'm a chameleon! arhg. no identity! you know the way some groups of friends might think, oh uni friends don't mix with friends from work etc... well I've always been able to 'blend' in. And I was about to put that at the top of my list. Good grief. I know it's not a bad thing per se. And I do have my own personality, but I also seem to think that I have no right to have my own unique personality, or something. It's interesting stuff. Luckily now I can think about it properly. I would have been too raw to confront this stuff a 2/3 years ago.

OK, back to that list. my good qualiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeees hmm

Bandwithering and garlic butter... you always show loads of empathy in the posts you write. I've noticed that with both of you and I haven't even been around here that long...
That's a lovely quality to have that you can add to your lists x

To all doing their list: Please list one of your qualities as "bravery" and another as "fucking awesome"

Identity in pieces? Yep. I liken it to getting out of a cult. Or prison. Freedom should be wonderful, and it is, but is also scary. What are you supposed to DO with all this free will? Slowly, slowly you adjust. You have days where you feel bad-tempered, dissociated, in freefall. But you always rally, it is part of the healing and repair process.
Frequently help is needed to, as you say, unpick the damage. It is most definitely NOT about blame.

I dont think I had PTSD - for the simple reason that my dreams functioned quite well in helping me see how I really felt ie after one breakup, after X had left me for OW, there was the chance he might come back, and I was far too mired in it to want anything else.

That night though, I dreamt I was crammed into a stationary car with too may people and couldn't move. So the way I see it, that part of my psyche still functioned well enough to show me how I REALLY felt (tho I wasn't yet able to take it on board) without the nightmares and sleep disturbance associated with PTSD

Bandwithering the things you are saying reasonate SO strongly with me! Needing to appear to be happy more than actually prioritising my own happiness. And I'm a chameleon too.

thisishowIfeel - go you! Talk about catharsis! Sorry to hear about your narc mother though. Although there is a big fat question mark over whether my father was EA (I've blotted a lot out) my Mum definitely was not and I wish my Mum had been the one to live.

i know I am a good person, I know that I am a good person......but I CANNOT for the life of me name an actual 'good quality' that I have

how funny

I AM a good mother I AM a good mother I AM a good mother and he IS a bastard.
Back from camping .
Need tips on what to say when the twat starts on at you in front of the kids without rising to the bait.

Good qualities for everyone else here
Survivors, everyone of you.
Putting your children first
Empathy
Self-belief (ok it can be kinda shaky) but the embers are there for everyone and just need stoking up and this isn't the glimmerings of NPD when combined with the other things.
Desire for a better future
Self-awareness (its growing)
Willingness to explore change and understanding why sometimes it is necessary
Hope
Essential goodness and wanting the best for others
Morality
Ability to compromise
Doing as you would be done by
Inner strength
Not dogmatic
Pragmatism - knowing that every change requires compromise and that there are no winners or losers.

Not sure if that is what Garlicbutter's therapist meant?
Don't be shy of blowing your own trumplet GB tell us what you put on your list?

BB that went fast!
Hmm - pretend to give the point some thought. Say "I dont know" Practice non-answers. Say pleasantly "Sorry, what's your point?" Dont engage (not easy I know)
Dont be afraid to look ignorant in front of the kids ie if he tries to slag you off for not answering him properly. Its the dynamic that matters. You keep the higher ground and he just makes himself look bad. If he talks over you, keep talking, but in the same tone and dont raise your voice, till you've finished.

Its no longer about what you say, its how you act. You neednt waste your breath actually engaging with him in conversation, (he doesn't listen anyway) so just try some new strategies.

BTW - this might contradict what I say about not engaging, but you aren't with this - more keeping him at arms length. Hope that makes sense!

Umm, thanks for the encouragement notsorted! Here goes:

I'm drunk (so decided to post this; it won't to me any harm to read it back later)
I'm intelligent; I learn quickly
I'm funny and am quick to laughter
I look OK and I'm OK with how I look, even when I look not-OK
I'm a good cook
I'm a good friend - actually, I'm not being at the moment (isolation) - note to self
I have a strong imagination and can fire others' imagination
I'm good with colours and design
I'm creative; I make things
I'm a good communicator; my language skills are above average
I'm empathetic (thank you, babyhammock)
I'm easy to like
I'm a very good host - at least, I was last time I had guests!
My programming skills are better than I think, and certainly better than many who rate theirs more highly - need to work on that trumpet!
Thanks to therapy, I'm becoming quite wise and compassionate
I am capable of very hard work: physical, intellectual and emotional
I'm a natural dancer
I can find the silver lining
I am a problem solver
I have nice blue eyes
I'm developing great boundaries, and am proud of it

I'm so tempted to add balancing negatives, but THAT IS NOT THE POINT!
I'm going to copy the above into my diary :)

Who's next?

Ooh, bigbuttons, I totally second MmeO's advice to Practice non-answers.

There's an useful assertiveness technique known as 'fogging'. This isn't the same as the foggy crap psychological abusers come out with - but read on: Fogging is when you agree to the kernel of truth in an aggressive statement but not the rest of it. So you might say "I can see it's annoying for you to step over the children's wellies when you come in" and leave it at that. When they go on to rant about what a useless/uncaring/incompetent/etc person you are because there are wellies in the hall, you just keep saying, "Yes, I can see it annoys you," and "You do expect the hall to be clear when you come in" - the truth, and nothing else. It's not as hard as it sounds; try it!

In my experience, it drives bullies crazy. They hate that you're just repeating the truth out of what they said. Interestingly, they often perceive this as dishonest, word-twisting, manipulative, etc ... which just shows you how much value they attach to truth. They can't actually disagree with you, since you're only feeding the bones of their complaint back to them. More to the point, it leaves YOU feeling grounded in common sense. it really helps clarify your thinking at times when you might have felt befuddled.

I regret to say that, in my past, I ended up being successfully fuddlked over finances because I didn't check the facts. So the other part of this lesson is to make sure you know what the truth is, so you know which parts to agree with. (Sorry for jumping the gun a bit there, blame the vodka.)

Garlicbutter you sound gorgeous - I almost fancy you - unfortunately I am definitely heterosexual.

BW & GB - Wow that 'chameleon identity' thing has really hit me. Always been able to fit in and speak differently to different people. I know to a certain extent that's normal, but you shouldn't have to do that ith people you are supposed to be close to.

Your posts about what you have done in counselling are very helpful to me.

Regarding routines and rules GB, flylady is really good because it makes the timetables and schedules part of your life in such a way that you then don't notice them. They creep up over weeks and you don't notice them. Some you drop, some you do, but it really does help. You do chores without feeling restricted by them. There's a psychology behind it which makes you just get on with stuff without loading it with significance - that's the thing that holds me back with housework anyway. Of course you also have to 'translate' it mentally from godfearing, peoplepleasing americanspeak so bear that in mind.

Hi lisalisa - please do tell your mother that YOU have lost YOUR father. You are perfectly entitled to grieve for that. Cancel her coming to you. Tell her she needs to grieve alone. You know you just offered because she made you feel you ought to. Tell her you'll go and see her - that way you can leave. Perhaps offer to go on a regular basis, but make it on your terms, and make sure you can leave when you want to. A regular meeting or phonecall will mean she won't be pestering you in between times. You can say 'I'll talk to you about that when I see you on ...'.

I think there are ways round this, but you have to control the contact time with her. Letting her stay with you for a few days is definitely not going to work.

gb - fogging, sounds good. A bit like disengaging, but less extreme.

I've been doing that for years though - learned the hard way. He's one step ahead of me now - he deliberately puts stuff around and in the way, waits for me to react. For example last night I got back at 11pm and the dcs were still up (11 and 13). My dp is just disruptive and obstructive. I ask him 'why did he do x & x' now, that is met with 'when did I? ... but you did x and x...' and so it goes on.

And then he wants a 'cuddle'. And then he goes off in a huff, rejected. Sorry folks, it's all about ME again!

Hi bejeezus, I just read your post about parenting doubts - what are they - are you too lax or too strict? Perhaps I can help on that, I'm a dab hand with that sort of thing (in theory, maybe not in practice).

seriouslynow - re your response to me - it's good to know others have the same thoughts about the practicalities of leaving. Sometimes you just get so entrenched in the way things are, the things around you, the people, the places. Even if they're not perfect. I think you and I know that what we have to remember is that we don't actually like our dps any more. We may 'love' them on a deeper level because we are so much part of their lives, but now we have seen them at a distance (thanks to the brilliant people on this thread), we actually don't LIKE them.

So I guess the way to go is to visualise a successful, good life without them. In theory once you know what you want, you can usually find a path to get there. But I'm not there - I can't visualise a good life without living in this house, kids at these schools, around these friends, doing these jobs, and close to my family. But in the end, I know that none of these are fixed, none will be stay the same forever, but forcing these changes at the same time will be very hard.

Barbie, it's that awful fear of the future stuff ... however bad the present seems, the future seems worse. And it doesn't help if you've been ground down and sapped by trying to manage the unmanageable.

May I make a suggestion, barbie? Don't ask "Why"! You know the answer's not going to get you anywhere - when you ask "Why?", you expect the reply to provide helpful information. In the case of your partner, it won't. So don't waste your brain space.

Wrt parenting: In John Bradshaw's classic inner child workbook, Homecoming, he says it is impossible to parent a child well until you've successfully 're-parented' yourself. This may sound like bollocks to some readers - and doesn't apply to those who were cherished, nurtured and lovingly guided as children. For those of us who weren't, the truth of his statement becomes clear when you've started doing the work.

Does anybody know if it's possible to do the inner child work successfully whilst you're still in an abusive relationship? It makes you so raw at times, I imagine it might be too painful to do with an abuser on tap.

Anybody have an EA DH who has shown the real him to one of your friends?
According to my DH he had a heated discussion with one if our mutual friends last week. I bought his explaination. Today I meet up with her and her side is not only was he very verbally abusive to her but physically intimidating too. She doesn't want to spend time with him anymore and her DH is furious about it. We have all been friends for 15 years and our DC are all friends too. We spend a lot of time together. When I confided to her back in Jan what he was like she made it obvious that she didn't think he was that bad and sided with him a bit. She has been very apologetic and said she has a whole new view of him now.
Part of me is glad that I'm not imagining all of this but another part is so sad that he has ruined this friendship for us :(

Hi my ex has vented to my relatives - including making some weird threats ... on the one hand, they had poor opinion of him anyway and believed what had gone on. But if you can keep your friendship with them that is good. Interesting that DH argued with the woman rather than her DH ... much the safer option on his part IYSWIM. You need to keep out of it as regards him. Don't apologise to them, but say you and the DCs really value their friendship and if you have worries that the affect of either of them calling your DH on his behaviour let them know that as well as he will naturally blame you.
So sorry

About the only positive thing I got out of couple counselling was that XH did some of his tricks on the counsellor and her reactions to it were very telling. XH is not a large man but he can adopt quite scary body language and he has The Voice, like a guard dog's bark, that goes right through you. He leaned forward and did The Voice on the poor woman and she kind of cowered back, then explained that his appearance was aggressive. I wasn't being aggressive, I was just talking, he said. X, you were being aggressive, she repeated gently but firmly. Oh, and times he said totally perverse things, like one week he said he would agree to let me sleep around if it would keep the family together, the following week he said he had withdrawn permission, and she made a sort of face both times... thank God, it wasn't just me! He was doing it in front of a trained witness!