Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 3

[ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow]

New thread - will copy our library of links in the following posts

barbie I agree about the time limit. From the outside it looks like you are still trying/hoping to 'change him' (or help him chnage).
Remember he is the only one who can decide to chnage. I am sure he already has had numerous 'wake up calls' and a part of me is wondering why he would do something this time (and not the others).
I would also be weary that yo would see any small improvements in his behaviour as a 'positive sign' and that it will delay you taking the decision to leave.

I have found things a bit hard recently. I've had these 'doubts' again that actally he isn't that bad and I haven't been trying hard enough. I am finding it difficult because with H it's not really about what he has been doing but more about what he hasn't been doing (ie no emotional connection at all/caring, not telling me what his plans are, what he thinks, not talking etc...). Now to have being on WA website and others, I know that on paper his behaviour is the one of an abuser. But it still doesn't feel 'that bad' because he hasn't done anything wrong isywim. (God using the words Domestic Violence as they do on the WA website for his behaviour still feels out of place). Anyway...
Yesterday we were at home, dcs at my parents. I started to talk to him, trying my best to establish some sort of conversation/connection. Then I got he impression he had drifted away so I stopped in mid sentence. And waited ... And 30 seconds later he just said 'Humm humm' then silence again. I waited still to see what would happen and he actually didn't move or say a word, still looking out through the window until I physically moved to another part of the room. He then moved too and a few minutes later was 'talking' about somethingelse. Once again we ate in what was a near total silence.
Really brought to me that what looked like some 'big efforts' on his side to improve things are just very very superficial and that deep down things haven't changed.
I just wished that the following 3~4 weeks would go quickly. I don't want to do anything before I see my cousellor again at the end of August. The last thing she told me last time I saw her was 'to be very carefull and not to do anything quickly as I need to protect myself' so I don't want to tell him that we are going to get divorced yet. But him out of the house would be so nice!

Dear Peppa and Barbie
going slow is hard, I think, especially if you are someone who wants a resolution to make a dramatic change. Perhaps concentrating on making some changes yourselves that make you feel good, small silly ones iyswim, but ones that give you confidence elsewhere to buttress your feelings about the big change obliquely?
I have that thought in the back of my mind, but somehow don't act on it fully. I have a wardrobe of clothes that I can remember buying each time things hit rock bottom with ex. I'm far from a compulsive shopper but I know that forcing myself into shops that I hate was because I needed to do something when I couldn't change the big thing.

notsorted - congrats on becoming a member of the Lundy club!
reasons I sat open-mouthed reading your post. So glad you have your son on your side and you have started taking advice.
giveitago - welcome! You will find lots of support here.
Peppa - Oh yes, that feeling of things not being quite bad enough, I've been there. That whole "Oh it's not like he's screaming in my face or hitting me"
It's denial and minimisation, except we are doing it to ourselves as a consequence of them doing it to us. That mindset kept me in the relationship for way longer than it should have, because compared to how X HAD been, whe we lived together, his behaviour was much improved and almost tolerable.
And then I realised how scary that last sentence was. Tolerable?? So I was happy to be devalued, ignored and disrespected was I? That was okay was it?
It most certainly was not. For my DD, and my self-respect, I deserved better.
As a last point, I will say that although I was "coasting" all the time I had almost constant feelings of anxiety, I would snap at DD, and feel like I was merely existing from one of X's visits to the next.
The difference since ending my relationship has been palpable.

Dear MO
can I ask when you read Lundy did you have moments of thinking some of this was you too? I know it's all hard to untangle and I think if he hadn't left I'd still be in Barbie's dilemma of hoping for change. I read it and sometimes blame myself. One consolation is that I argued and got angry because I was trying to make things work out. But have doubts about whether I could have avoided some of it, if I hadn't have hung on to an unhealthy relationship? I think he behaved badly to get me to push him out so that he could leave without guilt of having done the deed himself. Keep falling back into the FOG

Just wanted to make a quick point about the question of "is he bad enough?" I think it's common to want to be sure that he has crossed a threshold and his behaviour now counts of abuse. So what if it doesn't? People are allowed to leave non-abusive partners if they're making them unhappy.

Chances are, once you are out of the relationship and your head clears, you'll be a lot clearer about the abuse. But even if you conclude it's not, so what?

What's wrong about having high standards about how you would like to be treated?

Exactly Nickname, and that is whaat we need to remember. Abuse undermines you and skews your viewpoint about what is acceptable. Recover your self respect and you recover your perspective.

notsorted yes, I read plenty in Lundy that rang bells. my X's behaviour manifested in so many forms he turned up in a lot of abuser descriptions.

re your self doubt and being in the fog. Please dont take responsibility for his abuse. All you could have done was respond as a normal loving person, and to that end nothing you could have done would have worked, because he was neither normal nor loving.

Once we leave, the hard work starts. But as I have said before, it is PROGRESSIVE. Each day we move forward a little more, towards clarity and emotional freedom.

Dear MO
I'm sitting here in tears feeling it was all such a waste. The DCs won't have a normal life because I'm in such a mess. I have one good day and one bad. I don't know what to do

Yes, the feeling of having wasted your time is tough - going through that myself. However, use the knowledge of those good days to pull you through the bad ones.
I've been finding myself very stroppy towards my bad feelings. It's part of facing up to them. I hated being overwhelmed by them so much I wanted to stand up to them and say "Come on then, what you got?"

(Fully aware of how bonkers that sounds)

Shall I post something that helped me?

notsorted your dcs will have a normal life because you doing so much to get out of the unacceptable relationship. By doing that you are showing them that some behaviours are unacceptable and you don't have to 'just live with it'.

Just read on a website something about how to answer the 'you should have known better' (which is really what you are telling yourself 'I should have known better and get out of there a long time ago').
Now this is simple. You didn't get out this relationship before because you didn't know any better. Your H has been destroying your self esteem and of course if you had know/understood what was happening you wouldn't have accepted it. IMO, it's a bit like when you have a serious depression but can't realize that you are depressed until it lifts. In the same way, when you are in the middle of an abusive relationship, it is very diificult to see the wood from the tress. So please don't feel guilty about it.

NicknameTaken I have been trying to take that approach and found that it helped a bit. I can also relate to the 'tolerable situation'.
Whilst typing that i've just realize that until this very second I was telling myself it was Ok to life a life 'just tolerable' :(:( I need to learn to respect myslef more than I do now...
But I also found that having a neutral person telling me his behaviour was unacceptable made things much easier because it confirmed that 'it wasn't just in my head' and me 'making mountains out of mole hills'.
And still somehow, I still hoping/expecting that he will be OK with the idea of divorce, that we could get divorced wo any major issues, finding an agreement on it wo any major blips.... I am dreaming aren't I?

Hi MO
post anything and everything.
I'm scared of being alone and not being able to cope. I start to think anything is better than this bloody awful mess. If I don't push through with testing out in court that his behaviour has had an affect on DCs therefore supervised contact only he will see it as having won. If I do I'm still afraid that court will say it was just my problem and has no impact on DCs so grant unsupervised contact, then I will still be in the position of dealing with my failings as I should never have called him on his behaviour and just accepted that he was a crap father. And I've had bill from solicitor which scares me to go any further.

notsorted
I can imagine that the sollicitor bills can be scary....
If the Court was actually granting him unsupervised contact, do you think it would mean that you were wrong and that he is a fantastic father? It would just mean that the Court thinks the dangers that your dcs would ake are not big enough. Not exacteky the same thing.

Are you having counselling?

Dear Peppa, yes am having counselling. The abuse stuff started when I was pregnant and most of the nasty stuff happened when he wasn't being responsible as a parent. He didn't see them for a while, made demands (some of them utterly bizzarre) so that he would see them. So it's not exactly on them, but effect has been to make me distrust that he will just see them without any more demands. And now I'm making demands ie he commits to a programme of some sort, which solicitor backs, but if he won't we ened up in court.
Wondering whether it would be just easier to give up and let go? One last chance to see if he can be reliable. So am I protecting DCs from hurt or transferring the hurt I feel and worry of me being let down on to them? He didn't look after them at some really difficult points in my life before. So no good track record.

Peppa - mine does the same. When I talk he doesn't even look at me even when I need to point at something etc. I remember once being told he may be deaf. One friend told me there's 'autistic' but there's 'autistic on purpose'. But ignoring like this is deliberate however many reasons you can find for it. It's one of the many examples of that borderline behaviour where you can make excuses for them.

With mine it is also a case of what he doesn't do, not what he does do. He does have a mean streak though, history of bullying his sister badly used to make 'sick' jokes, also likes to get people to believe something that isn't true and then say 'got you there'. Haha.

What has kept me here I think is his endless energy and ability to do anything and everything round the house (except housework), endless talents, playing with kids, good work ethic, he's not spendthrift etc etc. This has made it hard for me to let go because most of my friends have partners that are not able to do many of the things he does. He has very clearly defined roles of who does what at home, this has never changed (even when I was working).

It's almost as though I am the only thing he abysmally fails at. This then makes it hard for me to not blame myself.

OK if your cunsellor is worth his/her salt, she should be able to tell you if the behaviour of your stbx was abusive towards your dcs. She should also help you see if your fear is about being let down by stbx (as you being let down or your dcs being let down by their father) again or if there is some very legitimate reasons for you to want only supervised contact.
What comes out from your posts is that you are worried he will play up again and that this will be a reflection on you (and not on him). One avenue to consider?

I can totally relate to the lack of trust re the dcs. I know I am not expecting my H to be a good father. I know that, for me, I will have to deal and give as much tools as possible to my dcs to cope with his attitude (putting down and favoring one dc to the other plus no emtional contact). So that's my goal (more than fighting with him for him to do the 'right' thing).
Do you think your stbx would use the dcs to get at you after the divorce (eg changing dates and time to pick up)? Or are you worried about the emotional and physical well being?

Ok notsorted :

And so I come to the void. The Void. The thing I fear, the thing that old memories tumble into, to be spat out with new, frightening significance. Pictures of places that I can't bear to think of, or go to, lest the blackness catch up with and overwhelm me.

And do you know what I want to do right now? Take a run at it and jump right in, wooooooooo. No air punching, no false bravado, just sheer fucking necessity. I don't want to be depressed, or bleak, or wallowing. I am just so fucking sick of the thing's constant presence in my life. If I can't get rid of it, I am going to fucking well pull up a chair and stop ignoring it. It obviously has something to say to me.

Is it Depression? I don't think so. That would seem to be something far scarier that i don't imagine I could even visualise, let alone get near. I think it's just fear of fear, certainly fear of being alone. It might be anger. I don't do anger well, so it makes sense to bury it away down a deep hole.

The fact is refusal to face it (or inability, as I am trying to be kind to myself) is not doing me any favours.

barbie yep I think we have a similar model.
He can actually be quite good at doing things in the house incl housework. He also, on paper, does some childcare. Except that it's done o any emotional input, that he is putting dc1 down constantly etc etc etc. I have just finished a degree and it meant that for 3 years H has been looking after the dcs 2 days every other week. When i thnk about it, I am sometimes wondering how I could have left my dcs with him in these circunstances. I have to remind myself that - I didn't know/see what was ging on 2-I was emitonaly overwhelemed by it all and 3- It's that particular course that has given the strength to build up my life again and face it all.

I have been talking with my counsellor how difficult I have/am finding it to accept his behaviour is unreasonnable because it is so bordeline. Nothing to 'show' for it. Probably need to go though that again.

MO you kow what helped me these last few months is to take the opposite stance. Forget about H, his behaviour and actions or non actions. For a few months I have concentrated all my efforts into being happy, finding that place where I can appreciate thinsg again, from the laughter of my dcs to the beauty of a tree.
I have been following the advice of a friend, evry keen on martial arts.

Remember a time when you were happy, truly happy. Remember how it felt, from the feelings in your head to the feelings in your body. Remember how it felt around your heart, in your arms. Did you want to sing? Jump and shout from delight? Just try and bring all these feelings back now, in your own body. feel them, smile. Stay there for as long as you can.
Repeat everyday for as long as you feel down and joyless.

It helped me finding a strength in myself I had forgotten. It helped me feeling happy instead of feeling gloom.
By just doing that, I believe I have won the battle already.

MO - I did that to depression, stared it down and said, come on then, take your best shot... what HAVE you really got in all that blackness?

The answer was Unknown. The fear of The Unknown. What it actually IS though is NOTHING.

So make your OWN memories, Two fingers up to The Unknown. The past is in the past, the future we haven't decided yet. All I can change is the NOW.

MO - I am not saying you are depressed, not at all btw.

I reckon the X in our lives is so wrapped up in so much mental manipulation, overwhelmingly bizarre and sneaky. Insipid mostly we have got into the habit of ignoring pretty large issues.

With all the normalisation we've done and the gas lighting that has been done to us, the removal of our right to be pissed off, sad, unhappy, angry or outraged at the treatment we have received, we are sitting in a fog.

In that fog is this blackness, this fear, the panic, there is no name to it, no face really, no truth, but having lived a life fuelled by adrenaline and fear, it's a tough habit to break.

MO, the shadow in your life is only an Elephant in the Room. A benign elephant, but nonetheless it's taking up space in your life. Open the door - well patio doors - and let it out. It's no longer valid in your life, it's only the residual fear left over with nowhere to go.

all those years of walking on egg shells, second guessing what mood you'll find when you see him, worrying what sin/heinous act you've committed, when his poisonous key goes into the lock, that sickness to the very pit of your stomach, all of this is a big ol' habit for your body and mind to physically break.

I think like we say to these sad little men, don't feed them. Don't feed the elephant, it'll bugger off eventually.

Whatever works is goood
Hissy and Peppa, good points. I just wanted to face the Void as I could feel it as far back as my teens and I was utterly sick of it.

Although I agree with the "residual" analogy Hissy, I find it difficult to let go. It has to be done gradually, but I will do it. there is no going back for me. I could never go back to the same state of ignorance I was in before so the only way is forward.

Madame O

Sorry you're still caught up in all this emotion.

About 2 years ago I went to a local day trip place with a friend and as I walked through I felt this agony, remembering the last time I was there with DP - arguing and stressed. I have already been detached for a few years now and that's one of the reasons I think I could feel that pain for what it was.

Perhaps you were angry before but now you are able to feel the pain and accept that it happened. But that's it - it happened THEN, not now. You are feeling it because you can see it for what it actually was.

A friend of mine always says 'it's worth going through if you can learn something from it'. Perhaps that's all there is to it. Learn from it and move on - at least you have taken something good from the years of pain.

Hi can I try this idea out on you?
I will go to initial mediation session on my own, but will have written a letter that details abuse and what DCs witnessed, my concerns re reliability, responsibility, his ability to provide for DCs financially at all, his MH issues and failure to deal with them. I will be open about my sometimes flaky state caused by the above but explain that I have been seeking help. Using Lundy, I will explain the affect of all this on me partly but mostly with reference to DCs. Explain that it was his choice to use physical/emotional abuse etc, etc.
I say that I am willing for contact via MiL who will also get a copy of the letter as will OW (just so she knows what has happened).
In effect, I say ok if you want to pursue unsupervised contact/overnights etc via court all this will come out. There is evidence (police, emails, texts, witnesses for stuff that he has done.
Does this sound a good way of raising my valid concerns re his ability to parent without me getting hung up on going to court and wasting more money on solicitors. So I'm sort of saying ok I dare you to go to court ... I know MiL is able and willing to supervise contact and does have reservations about his parenting skills.
Is this a good plan or not?

notsorted I don't want to ignore your post, but as I have no DC and am not in the UK (therefore not knowledgeable about the legal system there) I can't give an opinion on your plan.

I would say, though, that you should be prepared for MiL and OW not believing one word of your letter, as they will be invested in denying that your ex is abusive.

It's the authorities who need to be spoken to and convinced, and to act accordingly. Your ex's allies are unlikely to ever acknowledge his abusiveness, and are more likely to attack you / attack what you say as a way of being able to dismiss it.

Mme O, this: I am going to fucking well pull up a chair and stop ignoring it. It obviously has something to say to me, is one of the most courageous things I've read. Good for you, and good luck.