To be amazed at how little you all seem to put up with in a relationship?!

[Jazzicatz]

Everytime I come on here and read through this section, most of you very quickly jump in and say 'dump him'. Do you really dump someone for apparant trivialities or just saying it but would never do it yourself?

I wish we (as a society in general) could get away from this mindset of needing a relationship to be happy, and move more towards making yourself happy before entering into a relationship. Unfortunately the former seems to be the belief of the majority.

completely agree with this.

Also agree that no one should feel obliged to fix anyone, but sometimes a loving and understanding partner can be helpful- but I'd draw the line at emotional or physical abuse.

amelia - I remember that thread. And the thing is, yes, the bloke did need counselling but it was going to take him an awfully long time to move on from his dreadful childhood. Some women here (including the OP of that thread) are with hugely damaged men, hoping that they can 'fix' them if they only give them enough love. And where other women have failed, they alone have the key to unlock the lovely sweet man that lurks beneath. And that is a hugely dangerous mindset IMO and really, the best advice is to leave because no one can be responsible for another person's happiness, as Bertie says.

The thing is, if you're in a relationship with someone who treats you well, you don't need to sit down and tell them not to treat you like shit because they don't routinely treat you like shit.

But then I wouldn't have got to the stage of marrying and having DCs with a man who didn't treat me well. OP, the thing that gets me with a lot of the relationship threads is that woman have actually stayed with men that treat them like shit for 10+ years and then are shocked that other woman wouldn't have got past the 3rd date stage with men like these, and also rather surprised that when they try to sit down and talk about it, their DH (after 10+ years of being able to behave in a particular way) don't see that they have to change.

fucking hell the self righteousness on this thread is irritating

an abusive relationship is not about the womans actions it is about the mans need to control and he does this through abuse is that so hard to understand, or do you really beleive that it is only weak so called needy women that get involved with controlling men

abusive men are not abusive at first they do not slap/put down their date they work on them slowly. yes hindsight is a wonderful things and some signs are there early on but for those in it it is often impossible to see because it is so well hidden

Can I also point out that on MN people don't always say 'Dump him'?

I started a thread a long time ago about my H refusing to talk to me. He was leaving the room as I was talking to him or was picking up a paper to read it. I was told that it was me who had a problem as I probably was going on and on about things and was in effect getting very boring and annoying.
I have then read threads where the Op was saying something on the same lines but obvioulsy with a different tone and they were told to 'Dump the man' as it was EA.
I told my psychotherapist about it. Her reaction was 'Gosh, that must have been hurtful!'

Now is that matter trivial? Well if it's just in passing, some time to time. Or the other partner might be busy with something else then it is trivial. When it is day and day out, then it isn't. How can you always have it right from a few lines on a screen?
In my case, it took me a long time to realize this wasn't trivial. I still don't think it was EA, just a tw* with lots of communication problems. but every single one of these threads helped me putting words into the feelings I was experiencing whch is one of the most helpfull things I could have got out of it.

"...and then are shocked that other woman wouldn't have got past the 3rd date stage with men like these"

I guess I was one of the ones who was shocked. To tell the truth I'm actually massively envious of those people who, naturally or as a result of their upbringing or whatever, had a decent relationship template to start out with, because I and a lot of other people didn't. It's only been through reading mumsnet (and pretty much solely through mumsnet - maybe people don't talk honestly enough about relationships in real life!) that I realised that perhaps my template was skewed and I was putting up with stuff very early on which most people would leave a long term relationship for.

In fact I think I was always aware that other people had higher standards than me, but do you know what I thought? I just thought they were insensitive and couldn't see the person "behind" the issues. I'd let a lot of stuff go because I "understood" the reasons behind it. But then I also let a lot of stuff go because I just thought all men were like that or that's what relationships were supposed to be like.

MadameM, I had a similar thing happen to me. I think it's definitely in part the tone, especially if you're focusing on your own feelings in the post rather than his particular actions. And I wonder if MN has become more EA aware as a whole as well, as more and more people are helped by the existing survivors and quite often end up joining the ranks.

The thing that makes me uncomfortable reading relationship threads is how quickly the OP is turned on or belittled by some posters if she doesn't want to dump her DP or lists his good points.

There is often a bit of talking down to the op, as though because they disagree with her wanting to work out the problems in her relationship she must be absolutely thick.

Well I think this has been a fascinating thread, and MN has been very helpful in me getting to grips with a past relationship, and why I felt such tremendous guilt for ending it, and I now understand that I was being a bit of an old boiled frog (fantastic analogy). I would have found it much harder to identify where my own boundaries are without the (occasionally shocking and hard-headed) advice I've seen on here.

I am starting to get a feel for, hopefully, the difference between what is and isn't unacceptable to me at a very deep level. I have definitely taken inspiration from those who have been through a great deal worse than me and who can, as Laquitar says, smell it from miles away.

KellyKettle, I think what's at issue here sometimes is the difficulty some of us (with screwed up boundaries) have in understanding the difference between a relationship where problems can be worked out and one in which they fundamentally can not and never will be.

KellyKettle I don't think an OP should be belittled or patronised but sometimes women in an abusive relationship are in total DENIAL about the state of play and it's very frustrating trying to get through to someone who really needs to listen to some good sense - but won't. Maybe it comes across wrong?

Abusers will often turn on the charm and reel their partner back in when they sense they've gone too far but often the abused won't listen to others who can see what she can't. As other posters have said until you wake up to EA it can be hidden - that's why clever manipulators use it - you get to look innocent while screwing around with your captive's head. Loads of fun!

Once you can spot it you realise the dangers and how seemingly trivial actions can have a more significant meaning - and try to warn others - but they often don't listen till they're ready.

BertieBotts... great post.

Growing up with such an incredible and wonderful gentlemen as my dad (he passed away in December) has given my a very strong benchmark as to how I should be treated in relationships. It came in very handy indeed with dealing DH in the early days.

I think your post proves how fabulous mumsnet can be in tangibly improving people's lives

xxxxxx

Again not making own point, just supporting another poster... KellyKettle, I completely agree and find it quite shocking how sometimes the claws come out when advise isn't received with open arms.

I think some people get frustrated, especially when they can see that the woman is in danger and she refuses to see it which I can understand. It is awful when you see a situation escalating and the OP continues to go back for more :(

I've only seen people really lose it when children have been at risk though and I think that's fair enough

I can understand the frustration and there are posts which implore someone to seek RL help or support but without talking down to the OP.

I dunno, it always makes me uncomfortable to a patronising post to someone who's DP talks to her without respect. The thought of being spoken to like a moron would deter me from posting.

It's a difficult one I suppose. Relationship threads tend to stir emotions don't they?

You're right, it is difficult sometimes, especially as we're only communicating in type so things can easily come over the wrong way.

I have been on threads where the OP, who's clearly being bullied at home, gets bullied by respondents here too. I also feel upset when other posters refuse to believe what the OP's saying ... Some people's lives just are that difficult and, if you don't want to believe it, then don't post. It must be awful to be on the receiving end of a troll hunt, when you're already struggling to maintain your identity for real :(

There are only a few situations where i would say 'leave him' and that is if he has hit his partner, put his partner and/or children in danger, or if it's a new partner that has no time for your existing kids.

So emotional or financial abuse, controlling behaviour is fine so long as there's no physical violence michglas?

I think marriage/long term relationships/living together are bloody hard work. There are good bits but it's a graft. DH can be great but he can also be an absolute nightmare, our relationship has become problematic since having the dcs but I soldier on as i do love him, he's great with dcs, he loves me and he works extremely hard for us all.

That said if we broke up I can categorically say I would never ever ever live with a man again OR enter into any kind of joint financial arrangement with one or possibly even commit to a monogamous relationship. My views on the "necessity" or being in a relationship have changed markedly in the past few years..

I think part of it is internet bravado. Many of those who say dump wouldn't do it themselves, it's different when it's someone you know or is your OH.

Nail on head minx, we have finally come to the point that being in a committed relationship with a man will always carry a risk of great conflict and so for the 21st century mother, it's easier to go it alone. The trouble with a world of single parents is that there is little cohesion, everything becomes watered down. Having two brothers with two dcs each of two different women I know that my extended family life has become disjointed mainly because of logistical reasons - it's impossible to make arrangements. When I see their dcs having double holidays, double birthdays, double christmases, spending hours travelling from one parent to another I am amazed at their resilience but I do wonder whether as parents we are being a bit selfish to go it alone.

For this reason I am being extremely wary of dumping my dp, who is borderline something or other, I am trying to give him every chance I can, if only to clear my conscience of the fallout I know will come if he doesn't make an effort.

When I first came on mn to talk about this I was hounded by women who patronised and battered me with their paranoid prejudices. It put me off coming back for advice for a long time. Mn deleted the abusive posts which didn't really help as it absolves those who did the abusing! I'd much rather the nasty posts stay up there for all to see.

Yes I have asked advice about dh a couple of times barbiegrows and although some posters were helpful ( and no that doesn't include "just saying what I want to hear")I got the usual screeches of "leave him, he's got NPD!".

The current trend of diagnosing any selfish irresponsible crappy behaviour in a bloke with Narcissistic Personality Disorder on here is misguided and more worryingly dangerous. It's one of the reasons I don't often go near the relationship topic.

And I do know what I'm talking about both personally and professionally about this issue. NPD is serious stuff and shouldn't be bandied about after a couple of sentences in an OP. I also think some posters on here have serious issues with men generally and use the relationship topic to vent.

Agree with you that NPD is bandied about far too frequently. Bit dangerous

NPD hasn't been mentioned for ages

I don't really understand why it's dangerous either. If you're seriously worried that your partner might have some kind of disorder, you'd google it, or follow the links people have given, not just decide "Oh some random internet stranger said her XH did this one thing that mine did so he must have this NPD thing".

When I first read the NPD sites it was like someone had just stepped into my brain and understood the unexplainable. There was no way I could discuss XP's behaviour with anybody who hadn't experienced it because it was so irrational people just assumed I'd got it wrong. In the context of NPD everything suddenly made perfect sense.

And even if he didn't have NPD, the behaviours which make up NPD are still abusive, so if you can relate to more than a couple of them then you probably are in an abusive relationship anyway - what does it matter what label you give it privately?

minx - does your DH's family also suffer from these issues?

Don't they also think you should leave him because of the appalling way he treats you and your children?

It's pathologising bad behaviour which I think is dangerous because it excuses it. While I can understand why it can be useful for victims, saying that you have a disorder can be a very convenient excuse for behaving appallingly.

Some people undoubtedly do have NPD. Some of them are just twats

shecutofftheirtails you are making massive assumptions based on threads from ages ago.

Dh is not "appalling" to the dcs he's a v committed dad. FFS this makes me

I'd say 70% of the time he's an ok husband, infact sometimes he's great. But occassionally he flips over into behaviour that is difficult to cope with. Saying that I have done too, in the past. re parenting in some way he's "better" than me.

I don't think you should diagnose from web links either even if some stuff "fits". GPs and other health professionals are driven mad by this including me. Web info can be a helpful adjunct to a detailed assessment and informed diagnosis from a suitably qualified clinician NOT a replacement.