At what point should you stop blaming your parents for a shitty upbringing?

[DarlingDuck]

I am curious about this. When does it become a persons own responsibility to take control of their lives or is it understanable for a difficult upbrining to negativly impact on a persons life throughout?

Yes, it's white wine and fags for me

But I deserve it because I work so hard and could have been dead by now anyway.....oh dear.

No I don't self medicate. I am very strict with myself, the abuse in my family started with my alocoholic grandfather and has trickled down so it's not something I am comfortable being involved with.

I do like to keep distracted though. Lots of books, films, tv shows, music. Things that keep my mind busy.

josie The statley homes thread on here often talks about emotional abuse. The name of the thread comes from the classic sort of line you get about "but we took you to staley homes!" therefore the person can't be an abuser. But that isn't how it works at all.

I went to private school, but my home life was awful. The first can never forgive the second (and why would it? Did that school save me? No.)

I can't spell stately today. Sorry!

JosieRosie I don't have the answer, I'm afraid, but I have the same concerns.

My concern is more explicit (although maybe that's also in the back of your mind?) : what do I do when my parents are too old and frail to manage on their own? When I was a dependent child, they provided for me materially, intellectually, and they even really do love me in their own way. They also damaged me, and I HATE having any interaction with them, because of their disordered personalities, the way I am ignored and belittled just being around them.

I suspect they will want to rely on me in their dotage, as I am the closest of their children geographically. They may even want to move in with me... That thought fills me with dread and makes me want to heave.

But, in their eyes, society's eyes, and still in mine, I "owe" them...

What to do?

Knowing that you need to move on and being able to do it are two completely different things, as saf said.

Death alone doesn't bring closure, sadly. It's only since my father died that I've really come to realise his responsibility. He knew perfectly well that my mother was damaged and inadequate, he was aware of her effect on me, but he not only did absolutely nothing to help but actively helped make things worse by complaining that I was being a nuisance on the couple of occasions I dared ask for help or make my needs known.
There was a nasty parting shot in his will, too: he left me something because I needed it more than my siblings as I was a "single mother of three with little real prospect of finding a reliable life partner."
My parents never acknowledged the damage they did, far less apologised. They weren't doing their best. They didn't even try.
I've never had a decent relationship. I have no idea what one would look like. I have either been drawn to men I hoped would take care of me, only to discover they were controlling, or men who cared about me far more than I cared about them?they felt safe, because they couldn't hurt me.
What my parents did to me still cripples me every day. I don't know how to put that behind me.

Oh weevil . I am sorry.

Lesser. My stepfather was an emotional bully. He would constanly put me down, made snide remarks to me in public, shoot me the filthiest looks, deny me any food (I was 6 stone) and my mother would see all this and do nothing. Instead she laughed at my appearance, poked fun at my small boobs, criticise the way I ate.
I too was on the lookout for a father figure and fancied older men. I got lucky in that I got in with a small group of friends (I adopted them and they tolerated me!) and one of them was my now dh. I didn't fancy him or think of him in that way but for some reason he liked me (I've always been a good listener, empathetic, wise - thanks mum and stepdad!) and chased me until I said yes. He and my friends saved me.

I now know that I am not to blame. They bullied me out of the house because I was a nuisance, I was in the way and since then my mother has dragged me into crisis after crisis and made me feel a failure for not living up to her expectations, but I've gone beyond that and now I do things for me and not for approval from her.

The first thing to do is get a bloody good counsellor. There are plenty of counsellors around but few goods ones. It was a revelation to me to realise that it was ok to feel angry and resentful, it was ok to cry and have bad days. All of these feelings were ok, no-one was going to judge me for them.

Look around at the achievements you've had, your kids, the fact that you are still here, your love for them, the friends you have, your job. Many abuse victims end up on the streets or living very damaged lives. You've chosen to fight back. You acknowledge what they did and you are trying to put that behind you. In that respect you are far far stronger than them because you have a sense of self awareness that was obviously lacking for them.

See your positive points, write down what is good about your physical appearance and what you like about your personality. Ask your friends what they like about you and slowly you may just start to like yourself a little.

Take care and be kind to yourself x

Weevil I also have only been in damaging relationships and have no idea what a healthy one looks like, and I am scared I may never experience healthy love, scared that I am FUBAR...

But in my more optimistic moments, the way I see it is that I just have to learn a new, difficult skill, with very little guidance. The guidance I do have are my own gut feeling, and any help I can glean from counseling, books, and glimpses of healthy couples in my surrounding.

Please ignore / shoot me down if this sounds patronising or off the mark to you. Only you can understand your own pain.

I'm trying to remember where I got my ideas about good and bad relationships....it wasn't from home that's for sure or from my Grandparents on either side.

I think it must have been from seeing my friends families interacting when I was a teen/pre teen.

We used to have to be out of the house for 8am and were not allowed to return until 5pm when it was teatime.

I spent a huge amount of time at other peoples houses growing up, maybe that was my saviour at the time.

Weevils (((Hugs)))

coaching, rather than counselling can be very helpful to overcome some of that stuff. Less people know about it, or realise it can be so useful, but I think it's amazing. weevil (or anyone else thinking about 'unhealthy' relationships) try asking yourself some questions, like, what does healthy mean to me? What do I do in my life to be healthy? What do I think a healthy relationships is? What could I do in my relationship to be healthy? What have I already done? What have other people told me about relationships, or shown me? How do I feel about what they have told/shown me? Do I have to agree with the person/people involved? Do I respect them for their beliefs, if not, why have I adopted their beliefs as my own? Do I have to keep them? If I didn't believe those things any more, what would my life be like? What else could I believe? What would I do if I believed I could have a healthy relationship? What WILL I do now, knowing what I know about my own beliefs and desires, to achieve the relationships I want?

The point is, don't stop with your first answer. Keep asking the next question. When you think something negative is true, ask yourself why, where did that thought come from? Is that my 'voice' in my head, or the 'voice' of a negative person from my past? If it's not what I want to think - can I challenge it? How? When will I challenge it? What will I do?

Be specific - keep pushing yourself, and things will change. They have to change, because you will change how you act. And life is made up either of your actions, or your reactions. When you chose to act instead of react, it gets better. Good luck!

Was it common for those of you with abusive parents for you to idealise one of them, ignoring the abuse they perpetrated, because it wasn't as bad as the abuse perpetrated by the other parent?

This is something that I've found very difficult to help my DH with, as he's only just starting to recognise that his controlling and selfish father was almost as abusive as his narcissistic mother, but because his father never actually physically abused him was seen as a good' parent. It was only once we moved 100 miles away from his family (the first time DH has ever been so far away from his family) at the beginning of this year, that he's started to unpick and analyse his bad relationship with his father and admit that perhaps it was almost as damaging to him as the one with his mother.

As far as I can see it was actually more damaging, simply because DH idolised him - his words and brainwashing had more of an impact on DH because he cared more what his father thought or said.

I hope you don't see this as intrusion or threadjacking. For our whole relationship DH's upbringing and family issues have been of concern to me. They cause him so much pain and difficulty as he tries to resolve the programming they've given him (eg - he still occasionally reverts to thinking he's stupid, despite his two 1st class degrees and PhD). On the other hand, some of the things I love most about him are probably as a result of his upbringing, like his sensitivity to others, his gentleness and his ability to admit when he's in the wrong (even if these are only products of his upbringing because he's deliberately working against his parents, ifysim?)

For someone from a very close and 'normal' family I find it so hard to understand sometimes, but I keep trying. A new thing we're running up against now I'm pregnant is his concerns over what kind of daddy he'll be. Personally I think he'll be wonderful, but he's so scared he'll mimic his dad's moods and make his baby miserable. I wish i could reassure him more.

MakesCakesWhenStressed

When I was a child and up until very recently I always thought my father was the 'problem' and my mother the victim...I didn't idolise her but did have a lot of compassion for her.

Then they moved house and lived very close this is when I was able to watch their relationship with adult eyes.

I have since come to realise that although my father was physically the aggressor the 'bullets' were loaded by my mother. I believe my father does feel some element of guilt for his behaviour (even though there is no change in his ways) however, my mother has no guilt that I have ever seen.

Realising both parents are dysfunctional was a really terrible time...but it was the catalyst to me finally saying enough. So although the realisation was heartbreaking it has also allowed me to finally stop trying to 'rescue' my mother and move on a bit.

Basically, they are a both as bad as each other...the same way other couples thrive on love and balance my parents both seem to thrive on their dysfunction.

Thanks, everyone.
MakesCakes, that's just what happened to me: for a long time I thought my father was just the warm, sunny, extroverted person he showed to other people, and that it was just my mother who was a bad parent. It took me decades to understand how neglectful and self-centred he had been.
In some ways being rejected by him was even more hurtful than the way my mother treated me, because she was so obviously damaged herself, whereas he seemed normal.

Makescakes . I had the same mother/father combo as your DH. I believe in childhood there was a tendency to "side" with my dad because he seemed like the "sane" one. But I never idolised him. I'm one of 4 and the eldest sibling (and golden child) did idolise him and does to this day in her own weird way. It's not uncommon for childhood abuse victims to latch on to the one sane parent. I think it's quite a breakthrough (was for me, anyway) to realise that they also played a part in the abuse (were even active abusers themselves) by letting it happen - they after all were the adult in the scenario with power to do something and change things. Whenever I asked my father to do something about my mother, all he did was offer (threaten) to leave himself, leaving us terrified we would be left without a sane parent, and grateful to him that he did stick around. It's only now I realise how sick that was. He turned himself into the principal victim and made us feel like we were victimising him, the adult, for asking him to help us, the children.

It's not thread hijacking, your concerns about your DH are very relevant to this discussion, because our partners and children tend to be the ones that bear the brunt of our childhood abuse if it isn't tackled. Again, I think I am like your DH, and you sound like my DH, from a very loving and grounded childhood and struggling to get your head round your partner. I'm also a high achiever who feels stupid and worthless because of my conditioning, and this feeling often bleeds into my parenting. One thing you'll may need to deal with with your DH, which I think plagues me, is the quest for perfection which just simply can't be achieved with unpredictable babies. Trying not to be your own parent can make you into someone who tries to be a perfect parent. But there is no such thing, and he/I will never be that mythical creature. It is accepting that you can't be a perfect parent, but it is enough to be a good enough parent. Accepting that your children do have faults, that they can be annoying, that sometimes you can really hate them, is important and that it's ok to feel like that sometimes, that this doesn't make you your parents, just human; and to realise that feeling is not about them, it is about you, and as long as you don't act out that feeling through abuse, violence, trying to turn them into something they are not, etc, you'll be ok......so much more, we are all still learning.

Has your DH done any reading/counselling? Parenthood can be the catalyst for all the childhood hurt to come out, you should be prepared for this. After years of this tearing my marriage apart, my DH is now reading about it for himself so that he can understand me. These websites: Pete Walker, Out of the Fog, Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers are a good place to start.

Congratulations on the pregnancy!

Sorry, that last post is a jumble, trying to multitask with the babes

I've also spent years in damaging relationships. I've always gone for men who weren't that into me or who were bullies or controlling - or basically emotionally unavailable. I'm sure that's a direct result of my father being self absorbed with his illness. I didn't get the interaction I needed when I was young. But I can't "blame" him - he was so very seriously ill. So my situation is slightly different. The end result was the same I guess....

But at the grand old age of 43 I did meet my lovely man at a time when I thought I might as well give up. With him I was never shouted at, never made to feel embarrassed or ashamed about who I was. I was supported etc. He gave me my beautiful daughter when I had given up hope of having a second child.

Right, one in bed, one having a dose of Cbeebies.

Makescakes, in case you have not had enough of my incoherent babbling, my biggest downfall as a parent, before I realised what I was doing, was trying not to be my mother and father. In John Bradshaw's "Homecoming", which is all about parenting your own young self and giving yourself the parent you didn't have, he says that trying to be the opposite of your own parents isn't actually good parenting either. I strove to be the opposite of them, but Bradshaw's words made me realise that wasn't healthy parenting either. This is something you may need to look out for in your DH.

Here's an example: my father was a complete control freak and histrionic, he believed there were perverts on every street corner and that I couldn't walk down the road without getting myself into trouble. I was not allowed to ride a bike, I would get killed. It would be my fault, if I did. I was not allowed to climb the climbing frame. If I did and I fell, that would be my fault and I would not get sympathy but punishment. When I was in my 20s, he would stalk me! He did not trust me not to get into trouble. He did not trust the outside world not to be trying to trouble me.

The exact opposite of that parenting is to let my children cycle in traffic and let them climb the highest climbing frames even if they put themselves at risk doing so, allow them to come and go as they please without keeping any tabs on them. That's obviously not good parenting either. So I have to teach myself to find the middle ground. To teach my children what is dangerous, but not to sap their confidence in doing so. To allow my kids to take risks and to allow them to make mistakes, but not to punish them when something goes wrong, especially when it is completely out of their control. Above all, to allow them to trust their own judgment and to give them the emotional equipment to trust themselves. They're only 1 and 3, so we'll have to see if any of that works in the future! But I reckon my DD already has lots more confidence than I ever did as a child.

My mother absolutely refuses to apologise or feel guilty. She blames me for most of it, because after all I was a very strong-willed little girl who wouldn't let her help, while my brother would let her do everything. Then I was "horrible" at 14 (aren't most 14 yos?). All I get from her is "poor me- everything's my fault".

I don't /didn't have a loving relationship with my own DD1 and she was awkward etc etc but I don't blame her for that. I was the adult so the responsibility is mine. I don't know how to put it right (she is 25) and I suppose I'm making it up to her sister instead :(

My brother tells me we had "an idyllic childhood". Not from where I'm sitting I didn't, but then he was mummy's golden boy. My redeeming grace was my granddad, but that caused other problems because my mum was jealous of our relationship and also tried to make up to my brother that our grandparents "didn't like him". It is a mess. Grandad was away in the war and missed out on mum's babyhood and young life, so I was his chance to start again.

We were sent to boarding school (my brother and I) and hated it. I barely talked for the first 3 years. I am so angry at my parents still for completely glossing over the fact that I hated it and was so homesick I would cry myself to sleep at night. If I complained they just told me not be a drama queen and pretended to friends and family that it was all wonderful. My Dad worked abroad and the company paid for the lot. My mum literally had the time of her life, playing bridge, going to the beach etc. Parents still say it was the best time of their life living abroad. They are over generous financially today but still quite distant emotionally.

I still feel angry but gave up talking to them about years ago. I am happily married with 2 children and have all I have ever wanted. I think I may have been more career minded without the expensive education as all I could think about when I there was having somewhere I felt at home and happy.

There seem to be as many interpretations of forgiveness as there are of blame.
I felt I couldn't forgive my father, until I grasped that forgiveness doesn't have to be the sort of magnanimous sin-relief that Jesus is famed for. Everyday, personal forgiveness is actually a selfish act. It's releasing yourself from the wasted energy of hatred and resentment. What's the opposite of love? It's not hate, is it, it's indifference. When you can truly feel "What that person did to me was vile. But, hey, they can live their life and I'll live mine. I'm the better person," then you have, to all intents & purposes, forgiven them.

makescakes - yes, my narcissistic mother was the saintly sufferer! She weathered all Dad's beatings, insults and other abuses. She comes over as sweetly naive, vulnerable and playful. Four years ago she changed my life for the worse - intentionally, though I'll never know if she did it 'deliberately' or was following an inner directive. It wasn't until then - too late - that I understood what she really is, and that she made a perfect foil for the psychopath she married and stayed with.

Mum's persona is going to be the factor that finally divides me from my brothers and sisters. Nobody could deny Dad's excesses, but everyone still buys Mum. One or two of the others have made disparaging remarks about her parenting but I'm the only one who's had The Talk with her - and seen the truth. It's easier to live with the vestiges of illusion, otherwise we've got to face the utter enormity of what was done to us as developing humans.

As a result, I'm the one with the diagnosed mental illness and the shattered life. The others are fully functional, but acting out their damage unconsciously.

Tizzy - yes, the same thing happens to me when I stop smoking! I sometimes do it on purpose now, when I feel I'm losing touch with myself. It grants me a horrible few days, but at least I "feel my feelings" and then some. I have high doses of antidepressants, too.

I've just seen your recent post, tallulah (mine took a very long time to compose). I have a friend who failed her eldest daughter due to issues she didn't know she had. She later trained as a psychotherapist ... and promptly apologised to her daughter, itemising every single thing she'd done wrong or omitted to do. She told her what she should have done instead, and apologised some more. Then she gave DD some tools - psychological, emotional and material - to help her repair her damage.

I'm happy to say the daughter (now in her thirties) is a creative, honest and very emotionally intelligent woman with many friends and an excellent 'moral compass' :)
It didn't happen overnight, of course.

Hi garlicbutter

I tried to stop smoking via Champix at one stage.

What an absolute disaster that was...I ended up smoking twice as much as usual trying to get that good old Dopamine hit...but Champix messes with the Dopamine functions - so no 'hit' however many I tried to smoke!

My body then decided that if there was no Dopamine hit/reward for smoking - then it was going to eat it's way to happiness. Eating affects Dopamine too...6 weeks later and nigh on two stones of weight gain as well a feeling of absolute despair for weeks on end I figured enough was enough and stopped the pills.

Twas a crazy experience that's for sure!

i'm the queen of petty examples but:

currently my 4yo son (yes i know he should be in bed but it's friday) is 'cleaning the kitchen'. water is getting splashed, he's clearly not doing it properly, it's making noise and the whole thing is making me twitch because part of me is ready to turn into my mother and tell him off and stop him and not being able to bear things not being done 'my' way even in the play world of a 4 yo.

but i'm sitting on my hands, i'm aware that's how i was parented and it wasn't nice. i'd never have been allowed to do this, i was never allowed to help my mother with anything, i was an annoyance and a thing to be gotten out from under her feet and away from her in situations like this.

ds is enjoying himself and actually he's gaining some sense of usefulness, competency, pride in himself that he is helping mummy and mummy is trying to be pleased and encouraging. even though part of me can't think of anything more annoying and knows i'll be fighting against myself not to just get him out of my way tomorrow we will do the cleaning together - i will make him up his own bottle of spray (water but he won't know that) and give him a cloth and tell him his job is to clean the cupboard doors and the fridge etc. i'll make myself do it and he will be really happy and feel important.

it's a petty example but it's what we're talking about i think - there is the programming and there is the adult choosing to go with another script. the programming will take over on another day when he's trying to 'help' and i'll snap at him that he's in the way and get cross for 30 seconds about sploshed water or mess made but it'll be 30 seconds before i catch the programme and override it.

and boy did i get tested for that - hit send and realised he'd taken off his trousers and accidentally dropped them in the dog's water bowl and emptied half the sink on the floor luckily i'd just typed the above so he got tutting and laughter rather than grrrrr.

That's what makes it all so crazy making. With every petty, pissy little incident that happens with my kids, I have to second guess my reaction. Sometimes anger is called for dammit, it must be. But half the time, I'm not sure, I can't let myself just react "naturally", because my version of "natural" behaviour is yelling, screaming, blame and violence, making a storm in every teacup.

In fact, why should we not blame, when our childhood programme was that issuing blame is the natural course of events? Why should our parents expect better standards from us than the ones they taught us? This whole fucking process is crazy making.