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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I've gone but I'm going to need your help detaching and staying away

277 replies

BeforeAndAfter · 04/07/2011 23:31

Sorry this is so long - I have lurked on the threads of Solost and WisedUpWoman (and others), in total admiration at the honesty, courage and determination laid out there not to mention the incredible advice (and wicked humour) provided by the MN crew. I know that I will really need the support of you lovely ladies over the coming weeks.

Like many of you my life can be divided into two acts: Before Discovery (BD) and After Discovery (AD). Life immediately BD wasn?t quite normal but wasn?t too far off. After 15 years together, the last six of which have been married, I thought we were just going through one of those distant, stressed phases, where a passionate love life was a distant memory due to DH?s redundancy, my exams, life etc. I now know otherwise and with that knowledge all of those little niggling signs that were there all fall into place and become obvious ? duh ? . How could I have missed the signs?

I am by no means daft but I had not put 2 and 2 together and reached 4, I was at about 3.25. I had figured out who OW was going to be but I truly thought it was budding as opposed to being in full bloom. My strategy BD had been to invite her to dinner and head off her attack by making me into a real live human being with feelings (I have never met her) but it turns out that I was way way too late. Discovery took place on 16 March with a bit more detail on 17 March. The affair has been going on since July 2010. YES, that long. In his words it started as the odd shag but since this year has developed into far more where he realised that come what may, all three players would be hurt (ah, such thoughtfulness).

At this point I feel I need to give some more detail about our lifestyle to give more context. We are fortunate enough to have a house in the country and a crash pad in the city, which was used by us both as relief from the commute. Then in August last year we bought our dream home (quasi retirement) somewhere warm, with a view to me giving up work in 2012, when DH?s pension would kick in. I work full-time (I?m 14 years younger than DH), we have no kids but he has two DDs who are now my beloved DSDs, both of whom are at uni.

Following DH?s redundancy in 2008 he found a part-time job and took up a hobby and the hobby is how he met OW. Towards the end of last year I noticed I could do little right and with his increasing enthusiasm for his hobby and his increasing criticism of me I found myself spending more time on my own at the crash pad rather than with DH at the house. Lesson number 1, never leave a man alone, they need constant attention. OW obviously couldn?t believe her luck and she reeled him in big time.

In February I approached DH to say that I felt we had drifted apart and needed to fix things at which point he agreed and, with indecent haste, volunteered that we spend time apart (about six weeks) with no communications so that he ?could think?. I was dumbfounded as being on his own is totally out of character for him (he is a selfish needy person, so a typical man then). He suggested he would go to the dream home for some space to allow his feelings for me to return and strengthen (ho ho). Anyway, I was still scratching my head, trying to figure out who this man was and trying to figure out why he had built a brick wall and wouldn?t let me in. He came back from the dream home and met me as arranged and agreed that we were best friends etc and that we should try and restart our relationship. At that point he was still not himself. A couple of hours later he broke down and dropped the bombshell about OW and the fact it had been going on since July 2010. I asked if he?d taken OW to dream home and he said ?absolutely not? and then I asked if he?d stayed overnight at her place when I was at crash pad and he said ?no?. I also asked the inevitable question about safe sex and was assured they always used protection. The next day I rang a close friend of mine who is a philandering male (please don?t judge me on my friends?) and he told me DH was definitely lying about using protection.

That day I went back to the house, not having been there for some time, in a symbolic ?moving back in with DH? gesture. We had agreed that he would finish with OW that night and be back by a certain time. Two hours after that deadline was up I assumed he was not coming back so I decided to find out the true extent of their relationship. I went into his Skype account (note ladies this IS a criminal act) and there was a whole written conversation between them which talked about him sleeping next to her, their passionate mornings (I?m sparing the graphic detail) and the fact that she couldn?t wait to fly out to see him. What I don?t understand is how another woman (excellent job, educated at top uni, so not dim) could go into my home to steal my DH. Forget the morals about affairs, I just would not go into someone else?s home and abuse it ? it feels like I have been burgled let alone having my husband stolen. BTW philandering male friend told me that men don?t think the same as women about bricks and mortar which oddly enough did help me. Back to Skype, with one password I found out the extent of his lying ? he had stayed overnight with her at her house and he had taken her to my dream home. Anyway, he eventually came home having dumped her and when I showed him what I?d found he confessed. He then told me he could never trust me again (yes, HE could never trust ME again) and changed all his passwords.

So, fast forward over a couple of traumatic months where he finished with her, I finished with him, we pinged back together, they pinged back together etc. Note: at no stage did he finish with me. The main reason for his flipping back and forth was that he refused to give up the hobby so OW was always there, reeling him in. He then properly finished with OW and, at my insistence, gave up the hobby. The only problem is he was thoroughly depressed, clearly grieving the OW and totally self-absorbed ? like a sulking child.

During the last reconciliation it was clear he was still communicating with her and when I was packing my belongings to leave he had an outburst and implored me to stay, confessing that they had been texting and phoning but not e-mailing or seeing each other. I agreed to stay one last time but his behaviour has gone back to being odd so I expect she?s back on the scene. I turned Poirot and found that there had previously been more than texting but the killer for me is that it is clear he really really loves her and is staying with me for financial reasons. Sadly his behaviour supports this so I cannot rationalise that the words were ?just for her?. Also during this period my mental health spiralled downwards and I ended up on anti-depressants, all the time pleading with him to stop the lying and tell me truth, and he just looked me in the eye and lied and lied.

Oh and one final thing on my scenario I have endured the agony of a visit to ?the clinic? and been checked out completely and he has now admitted that they did not use protection as the affair intensified. Additionally, from the start of their affair I have had thrush on and off and felt that I wasn?t ?quite right? down there so again, all of that fell into place once I knew.

I am lucky in that my work colleagues have been AMAZING and carried me through this hell but family only know we?re having problems. I know that even though I am strong tonight over the next day or so I will want to hear him, touch him, smell him and feel his arms around me (although lately hugs were only there when I asked, wtf ?) that's where I hope you MNs will be around to keep me focussed and strong. He's a liar and a cheat and I am too good for him (my current mantra).

Thank you for reading this far.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 06/09/2011 21:22

So, Bicep Man has not texted back... If he's playing the long game, he's goooood. Trust me, he's goooood.

I want to prostrate myself in front of him now. He's goooood.

I won't.

But ... what if he does text me back on Thursday to confirm details for Friday? What then? How fucking presumptious. But what would YOU do? This guy is either not interested or a fully paid up member of the "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" brigade.

Shit. I've always had a weak spot for members of that club.

Smart going on stupid. That's B&A. Aaaaarrrrrrrgggghh.

OP posts:
wellthatsdoneit · 06/09/2011 21:34

In your position I would treat this for what it is - a bit of fun and testing the water after coming out of a long relationship where you were treated badly. I wouldn't turn down any other offers you might get for Friday night, but if you do wind up on Thursday with no plans and he texts you, then go if that's what you want to do. Do whatever makes YOU feel good and don't give a thought as to what 'game' he might be playing. If he does turn out to be flakey to the extent that you are not having fun, then that's the time to bin him. Its all about the smile-to-frown ratio at this stage.

BeforeAndAfter · 06/09/2011 21:57

smile-to-frown ratio

WellThat you've summed it up. You really have. What a perfect formula to apply. Well my SFR is about 2.3 right now. I've just set up a spreadsheet to track my SFR (sad, or what?). I love this. It appeals to the pedant in me.

Thank you so much WellThat, thank you. You just spoke to me there.

OP posts:
Wisedupwoman · 07/09/2011 07:19

Arf at SFR!

agree with Wellthat though. I also like to apply the 'law of diminishing returns' (although, I wouldn't be here in the first place if I'd been any good at it, obviously!)

TheOriginalFAB · 07/09/2011 20:26

Your posts about not compromising reminds me of the time I had made plans to spend time with a friend on my birthday and then I met my new boyfriend. She offered to postpone so I could see him but I said no as we had arranged it first. I would never normally do that. I married him Grin.

The smile to frown ratio plan is genius. I have some emotional difficulties at the moment and I think thinking what my STF ratio is will really help. Thanks Smile.

drfayray · 08/09/2011 13:23

How are you going, B&A? Did he text you? I hope you get what you are comfy with.

I think you should do what YOU fancy doing. Do you want to see him again? If yes, then do. If he is playing some sort of weird game...well let him. Just do what makes you feel happy.

I will be going to rural and remote Qld soon and although it is for work, I reckon I just might meet some guys. Miners. (Wink) Now...rural and remote Qld is full of men and very few women. If I meet anyone nice and they want to see me again in whatever context, then hey, if I like them then I will. I have to make a number of trips there anyway. I will be travelling with my two bosses - one nice and one a lunatic, so will have to behave Grin. But I tell you...I will not say no to a shag if the bloke has his own teeth and hair, is taller than me (5ft 8) and his tattoos are discrete and do not spell out M.U.M. Grin....

I guess I am saying that I have been deprived of having fun for a long time. I am working hard at my job, at raising the children and well, it is time for me to have a bit of a laugh.

I am not going to over think situations. If I meet someone and we click, coolies...we can have some fun. If he plays any kind of game, well okay...but I canna be arsed with that.

Take care and let us know how you are going.

xxx

BeforeAndAfter · 08/09/2011 22:57

DrFay your post did bring a smile to my face. At-a-girl!

I've been to Cape Trib as part of one of my best holidays ever. I guess you're going further up for the hunks mining or would it be in a completely different part of Qld?

Just a quick update from me. I am just bushed this week. Super-tired. I went out last night with a lovely lady I met the other week at an event organised on my social site. So for a three-month subscription I've had a couple of great nights out, done the walk of shame and got myself a new girlfriend to have fun nights out with. Not bad if you ask me!

Bicep Man never got back to me. I described his communication pattern to Philandering Male Friend and he reckons Bicep Man is either married or attached. It seems likely to me. So, as they say in this new world I find myself in: "NEXT!"

Actually, Bicep Man is the first one-night stand I've ever had and while I had fun I don't think it's something I could do regularly and be happy in myself. This part of my life is interesting. I have the maturity and experience to feel comfortable doing what ever it is I want to do but I have the self-awareness to be able to try and understand how it all makes me feel and then tweak the next deed as appropriate. So I shall be changing my "pick-up" MO for the most part. I think. The test will be the next time I find myself in a similar situation with someone I just click with.

So my Plan B for tomorrow tonight will be a Bikram Yoga class. If anyone reading this is tempted to try it or is scared of trying Bikram (which I was) then try one session. Pace yourself and try it. It's amazing.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 08/09/2011 23:01

FAB I so nearly buckled and compromised but your message ensured I held firm. I'm glad I did.

Sorry you're having a tough time at the moment though. Keep smiling when you can. If you can't, get some botox - you wouldn't be able to frown then!

OP posts:
TheOriginalFAB · 09/09/2011 08:18

Glad to help Smile.

wellthatsdoneit · 14/09/2011 16:05

Just wondering how you are doing b&a? I had a very good day on Friday and have hit a slump over the last few days. Swings and roundabouts. I guess the fact that I did at least have a good day is a step in the right direction.

My botox only lasted six weeks! I must be putting my facial muscles through some serious work out.

Dozer · 14/09/2011 20:05

Hiya B&A, just back from holiday and caught up on your adventures, you sound like you're going great guns!

Your relationship with your DSDs sounds really good, like the sound of the stuff you do together and gossiping!

Really interesting post with your thoughts on the material and emotional. You are more philosophical about the material stuff than I would be! Am appalled re. your ex's behaviour re the foreign home: committing to buy it as a "forever" home and tying you both in financially when he was seeing the OW, that was terrible. Thank goodness you didn't actually chuck work in as was planned.

I don't actually find the cycling anecdote funny, (or maybe it's a laugh-or-you'll-cry kind of thing), it makes me Angry on your behalf as it's an example of people trying to re-invent the past, present, selves etc. in a really crappy and egotistical way. Grrr.

Sounds like your city pad is coming along nicely, IKEA rocks!

Here's to you - and the other lovely ladies here - having a great autumn! Wine

(By the way, am not sure about philandering-male friend. Seems like you like him quite a lot, and don't think he'd be a good person to get involved with, other than to give the occasional philandering male view! But as you know, I am a prude).

Dozer · 14/09/2011 20:06

Drfayray, keep hearing about these miners! Have never been down under, can't picture sexy miners, can you describe further?!

Wisedupwoman · 14/09/2011 20:30

Checking in now I've sorted my pc out. Boo to philandering males except for those who can give the heads up on other males.

BeforeAndAfter · 14/09/2011 23:23

Hi Everyone

Thank you for your messages. During the last couple of days my computer became incompatible with MN for some reason and I couldn?t even click into a thread let alone post. Not sure if it was a universal problem or mine alone.

Wellthat sorry you're struggling at the moment. All I can say is what you know, the bad times do get shorter and the good days start to follow each other until you can talk about having a good week and a couple of bad days. I promise.

Dozer, welcome back! I hope you got some rays on hols. I envy all of you, including OW, having holidays. Mine will come but not just yet. I?m planning a trip to NZ to see my lovely brother. My niece is having a baby in November so I shall also be playing the doting great aunt, albeit an incredibly cool one (oh, poor delusional me) OK, a batty one that does yoga.

Life seems to be moving on nicely. I still have Bicep Man very firmly in my head but not in my texts; ho-hum.

Anyway I thought it would be sensible to go and get myself checked out at t?clinic (is that what life?s come to at my age???) because I was tad, ahem, uncomfortable. I asked the nurse if I was being paranoid and she reassured me I was just being sensible. So, it seems I?m allergic to condoms ... STOP LAUGHING ladies. Great huh? Did one of you just say karma ???? Could be the latex, could be the gunk on them. Euurggh. I don?t even know what brand we used; he?d bought them.

Anyway, the nurse gave me the web address of an NHS site which sells various types of condoms very cheaply (including ones for sensitive souls like me) so I thought I?d share it here because, the prices are great and apparently the packaging is very discreet. Now don?t choke on your nice cup of tea but you bulk buy - 144 of the buggers. I?m beginning to think that my packet of 12 is a lifetime?s supply, let alone 144!!! It makes my eyes water and I start walking like John Wayne at the thought. The address is ?www dot freedoms-shop dot nhs dot uk?. Because there?s NHS in the address I don?t feel like I?m advertising a proper company, just promoting good health!

My poor philandering male friend (let?s call him PMF) is not getting good press here, is he? At least you know what you?re getting ... No illusions, no delusions ... Yes Dozer, I do care for him, enormously. We met at business school and hated each other during the first year and then we got to know each other on a trip abroad (platonically) and we realised we got on really well and 10 years later we will always be there for each other. No question, no matter what. He?s very senior and he excused himself from a meeting to take my emergency call for help the day after Discovery. He knew I would never leave a message like I did if I didn?t need him and he has been unwavering and just there. So in my vulnerable mode I did fall a little in love with him, my therapist recognised the signs, put me firmly in my place and I promise I?m over my mini-crush. PMF is firmly back in perspective, where he should be. Plus we both know he would never change his ways and would hurt me badly if we paired up so we don?t. We value what we get from each other as friends more. I do go all school-marmy on him about his philandering but to no avail.

My social website thingy is turning out to be brilliant. At the 80s party (yes, THAT one) I met this great girl and we?ve been on a night out together and will be off dancing next week. At the weekend I went to a restaurant over in Chelsea (not an area I really know) and eight ladies enjoyed a lovely meal, live music and got to know each other, then three of us retired to the pub. I really hit it off with one of the ladies so am meeting her for a night out next Monday. What with pilates and yoga I?m literally doing something after work every night.

Is there a bit of running away from being maudling about H? Yes, no question. But I?d rather turn my back on him and move forward than sit at home ?facing it head on? because someone thinks I should do that. Each time I move forward, I move away from him. I?m sure Einstein would have come up with a formula for that. Would any physicists out there care to offer a Heartbreak Recovery Formula?

So today I cried for H. My first tears for H since 18 August, when I closed the door of my house for the last time. They were teeny weeny tears but my face kind of broke into that ?uh oh, she?s gonna cry? look. A couple of tears leaked out and then the moment was gone.

I cried because I was talking to my friend at work and we were talking about her recent divorce and my pending divorce and how neither us do that whole ?friends with the ex? thing. I then commented on a night back in February when I?d asked H if he wanted a divorce and he said he wasn?t sure. We were in bed, it was very late and we?d had one of those harrowing evenings that only a couple in turmoil can have. Highly emotional, very close and very sad. Remember, at this point I knew nothing about OW.

I told him that if he didn?t love me then I didn?t want him to force himself to stay with me but I asked him to be my friend, help me look at houses etc. He cried and said he would never stop being my friend and said he would always help me with anything. I asked him he would start a relationship with OW and he said: ?maybe?. We then cuddled up, cried and slept. If only he hadn?t been lying to me, even then.

So as I remembered that intense closeness and trust that I felt then I cried today. As I type this I?m sad, but no tears. No tears. Oops, here they are. Nothing bad, just sad. Don?t worry though I?m at a French cultural evening tomorrow, clubbing Friday, Open House London Saturday and Swing Dancing on Sunday - all through my social site.

I?m a blur of denial!

xx

PS: Today's smile-to-frown ratio is 4:1! That's progress.

OP posts:
drfayray · 15/09/2011 14:03

First to Dozer: ah I dunno...when I have done my trip I will post asap. The thing is in Qld, the coal seam gas industry is BOOMING. Unskilled miners are earning about 120k per year (av Aus income is about 50k so that gives you an idea) and well skilled...double that? And in these towns, there are more men than women. But really, truth be told, the way I am feeling, I think I am going to stay celibate (call me Stephen please (nod to Stephen Fry Wink)). I am still too messed up and just want to do well at work and with beloved DC.

B&A I am sorry you cried today. Sigh. Awful business all this. I am just waiting for it to calm down; everything to sort out and calm down. I am very glad that you are going out and meeting people. That is great. I am trying to see my girlfriends too. I should try and get out and meet some new people but really just do not have the energy atm. It is hard enough to cope with work and the kids without going out as well.

I will never be friends with ABCKF. Never.

Take care please. I think of you often. Do not over do things either! Sometimes we need a bit of quiet time (not too much, mind you) to just be ourselves.

xxx

BeforeAndAfter · 15/09/2011 21:40

Today was a heavy heart day .

For the last five weeks or so I have, intermittently, been trying to take control of my mobile phone number. My number is a subsidiary to H?s account so a large mobile phone company would not talk to me because it's his account.

H could not fit in a call to the company due to his hectic schedule working one day a week, driving back and forth to OW?s and shagging her, oh and having a three-week holiday.

Once he came back from hols he called the company who said they?d do xyz when I called them. I followed the instructions to the letter and was told xyz was impossible due to procedures.

Over the last couple of weeks I have been told they could not move my number without having me and H on the phone together so H could consent. I told them I was not going to be on the phone at the same time as H under any circumstances and asked them to call H while I held on the line so they could get his permission to move my telephone number into my own account.

Last week the company?s call centre could not make outgoing calls.

So, today I tried again. I?d e-mailed H on 5 September telling him what he needed to do and I?ve heard nothing back from him. Not a squeak. The mobile phone company would not help me today and in the end I just started crying on the phone to them. The sheer frustration of trying to talk to a fucking call centre bod (not their fault I know) who can only follow a script.

So today's new trick is that they wanted his password ... HIS password FROM me ... wait for it ... for data protection reasons. Hmmm. I gave them short shrift about data protection and asked to speak to a supervisor. Not allowed. Without a password I cannot escalate an issue. So I asked them to call him and lo, today, they could make outgoing calls.

He was not on his mobile but he was at our house and the company got his consent and from tomorrow I shall be in charge of my mobile phone number and my account.

The whole thing just drained me.

I sent H an e-mail telling him it was not fair that he just ignored my e-mail of the 5th. I told him that he had got me into this mess so the least he could do is help me get out of it. Nothing from H in response.

I did go out tonight, as planned, but I made my excuses and left early.

I am drained and I am sad. I think I shall stay in tomorrow night. DrFay is right. I need to chill.

One of my City boys is taking me to lunch at his club tomorrow so I have something to look forward to. He is another one from business school but I think his intentions are less honorable to me than PMF. He?s married. He?d never make the first move but I know that if I so much as winked at him he?d bite my arm off. I wouldn?t dream of winking at him but it is depressing isn?t it?

You know when you're thinking about buying a car and you suddenly see that model of car everywhere, never having noticed it before? Well, all I can see around me are unfaithful men.

Thanks H, thanks.

OP posts:
Wisedupwoman · 16/09/2011 16:59

Ah the ever increasing frustrations of trying to detach from the many contractual commitments we get ourselves into.

i spent an hour on the phone at 1am one morning to a large banking establisment trying to fathom a way to get myself off the joint account which was hugely in arrears and on which i'd never spent a penny myself.

In the end the guy gave me some 'off the record advice' which tipped me the wink about what PTM might be up to and what to do about it. A few days later, PTM signed the forms and I was off the account with no debt in my name. But, ffs, what an awful thing to have to do when he could've done it himself so easily - and if he had, i'd have accepted half the debt. As it was, he's now got the lot.

So, it's just another of the things to be done that H is too far up his own arse to think about, but another reason why you are so much better off without him dragging you down. Keep the faith B&A.

wiseoldowl · 16/09/2011 20:18

Same here, cant change the e-mail/tv as its in STBXH name ,data protection,need to hear from him & he added himself as subsid user,even though forced me to take on paying it.

Still have changed the password & now taken him off as user... what doesnt kill you makes you stronger (as I say to my DS).

Dozer · 16/09/2011 22:11

Dealing with admin stuff makes me cry even in normal circumstances, those companies are just rubbish and make everything ten times harder than it needs to be.

Perhaps, though, stop expecting your ex to be thoughtful about this kind of stuff, as it doesn't sound like he will. Sad but may be easier to accept than being disappointed. And don't email him, or at least keep the email in draft for 48 hours before sending!

Think you should avoid these male "friends", they sound like too much hassle. Save it for those hunky aussie miners that dr fay ray is going to bring over to london on holiday to spend some of their hard-earned cash on wining and dining the lovely local women!

God, am bossy tonight, sorry. Tired and been wearing a power suit, has gone to my head!

Hope you have a good weekend.

catsrus · 16/09/2011 23:07

on the plus side - I've got some good deals as a "new customer" - taking over the 'old' contracts from him!

I'm watching the documentary about the Walton sextuplets now (can't believe they are all 27!!) - their dad has just been talking about going to pick up the girls from nights out when they were stuck without transport "because that's what dads do isn't it?". I thought "yes, that's what good dads do" my exH rarely did - I was the one taking them to parties and picking them up from fields in the early hours (or arranging with other parents to split the transport) - and now he won't get a chance to ever redeem himself really... off playing happy families with the OW and her dd - I hope she's worth it. She, of course, will wake up one day and realise she's married to a narc :)

BeforeAndAfter · 17/09/2011 00:15

what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Blimey Owley, using that metric we could all drag 10 double deckers with one hand, couldn't we?

Dozer, you're right, I should not have sent that e-mail to H. It broke the cardinal rule and showed him a chink of emotion which I have managed to completely avoid thus far. Am very annoyed with myself and shall not do that again.

Wisey, the faith is there. I don't stay down for long. That much I do know now.

Another milestone today, I swore the affidavit and sent it off. Did that before lunch. I figured if it was going to upset me then at least I could drown my sorrows at lunch but I was fine. Just fine. Not a flicker of sadness which I was expecting.

I stayed in tonight. Am recharging, so I do listen DrFay.

And Cats I enjoyed the programme on the Waltons too.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 17/09/2011 00:25

BTW Dozer your mention of a power suit made me think of Alexis and Crystal Carrington! Anyone remember them?

I do believe that the powers that be in the fashion world have decreed that shoulder pads are back in ...

OP posts:
heleninahandcart · 17/09/2011 10:27

Another de lurker here, just to say you are amazing keeping your family going. Do try and make sure you are kind to yourself too. If anyone deserves it, you do.

Wisedupwoman · 17/09/2011 14:48

I bumpted into a woman acquaintance I haven't seen for about a year, in Sainsbury's today. She said Wisey you've shed a ton of weight, what've you been up to?
i said yes, I've lost alot, but the biggest bit was the milestone around my neck that was PTM.
We had a giggle about that, then I came home.

You are pretty amazing B&A. Don't let one weaker moment bring you down, we all do it.
I very nearly emailed PTM this morning actually - to ask him to have a chat to DD about how I am entitled to be dating again and she should really accept that it's all over. But then I realised that he'd be absolutely no help whatsoever - so I had the chat (again) and we're alright. PTM is 'too busy' to see DD for a few weeks.

Nope, absolutely no help at all.

Wisedupwoman · 17/09/2011 14:48

bumped, even.

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