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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Marriage v. cohabitation

139 replies

Tatties · 18/11/2005 18:29

DP & I do not want to get married - big wedding, dressing up, etc.. just not our thing. We are as in love with each other as any couple ever could be, commitment is not an issue, but to us marriage just does not symbolise that. Why can't people get it? Your views please

OP posts:
paolosgirl · 20/11/2005 16:36

It's horses for courses, but for me (and DH), marriage and kids (in that order) was important, for lots of reasons. If DH had been happy to live with me and commit to me, I'd have been questionning why he didn't want to legally commit to me - and him of me.

Totally disagree with the earlier comment about marriage keeping women and men in their places!!!! One of the things marriage does is gives women equal rights in law - but aside from that, this idea of marriage keeping women down is bizarre!

MeerkatsUnite · 20/11/2005 17:35

Wonder what you think of this. The following is from Civitas (govt based think tank):-

Some people describe cohabitation as a rebellion against traditional family forms, striking a blow for freedom and independence. While some people do make a conscious choice to avoid marriage, others simply 'drift into' cohabitation. Many other people live together because it seems the best choice available at the time, even though they see it as far from ideal.

Finances might influence people's choices. For many people, especially those in low-paid or irregular work, getting married can seem too expensive. The discrimination against marriage in the tax and benefits system means that some people are better off by keeping their relationships 'off the books'. Some people also fear that getting married is a high- risk gamble because no-fault divorce laws make it easier for a spouse to walk away from their commitment.

Traditionally, marriage has had a special status in British law and society. Marriage developed as a way to provide stability for families and for all of society. Marriage is a declaration of commitment which has public as well as private consequences. It is an institution which offers benefits not only to the couples themselves but to society as a whole. When people marry, they commit themselves not only to being emotional and sexual partners, but also to taking care of each other-for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. They promise to stick by each other through the ups and downs that occur in everyone's lives. This promise and the trust it builds encourage partners to make sacrifices for the good of the family. Traditionally, British government and society have supported the institution of marriage by giving it certain privileges and responsibilities, and by enforcing consequences for breaking marriage vows.

A decrease in the number of marriages and an increase in cohabitation both have come in the wake of a large increase in divorce in the last thirty years. Some people argue that these trends are due to people being less willing to make commitments, or perhaps being more fearful that others will break their promises.

Although a good deal of evidence shows that cohabiting relationships have higher risks of poor outcomes, governmental and other official bodies continue to treat cohabitation and marriage as essentially the same. For example, the Lord Chancellor's department stated that 'the growing acceptance of long-term cohabitation as a preliminary or alternative to marriage' means that 'many such relationships must be at least as stable as marriage'. Meanwhile, the former Home Secretary Jack Straw takes the view that we 'shouldn't get in a paddy about the decline of formal marriage' and that 'the most important thing is the quality of the relationship, not the institution in itself'.

Some people argue that marriage should not receive any special recognition from the state. They claim that cohabitants should have the same legal rights and responsibilities which used to be reserved for marriage, from property rights to the right to take decisions about children's lives.

Currently, when a married couple divorces, a court decides how to divide their property, based upon the needs of both spouses and any children they have. However, when a cohabiting couple break up, each person retains ownership of their own property. This system ensures that individuals who commit themselves to the institution of marriage have some legal protection. It also protects the freedom of those who choose to live with each other outside the bounds of marriage.

The Solicitors Family Law Association and some other groups have called for extending the same marriage rights to cohabiting couples upon their break up. However, this action would deprive people of their right to live together on their own terms. Furthermore, it would blur the already fuzzy distinction between cohabitation and marriage. Undermining the special status of marriage would weaken an option for people who want to make both a private and a public commitment.

Although a marriage always requires two people, a divorce sometimes requires just one person, leaving the other in the cold. The state could help strengthen the institution of marriage by ending 'no-fault', non-consensual or unilateral divorce, and by introducing divorce settlements which penalise, rather than favour, the spouse who leaves or behaves badly.

I personally don't think that marriage necessarily puts men and women "in their place" but feel that cohabiting is far better an arrangement for the man than the woman in such a relationship. When a cohabiting relationship ends the woman is often far worse off in all sorts of ways primarily because the term "common law wife" is not recognised in law and she has few if any rights.

PeachyPlumPudding · 20/11/2005 18:09

In that article, Jack Straw speaks sense! OMG!

CarolinaMoon · 20/11/2005 18:18

gawd, how conservative that is, meerkats.

The law doesn't actually treat all marriages as alike once they're over - a wife left after 30 years of marriage is likely to get a much better financial settlement on divorce than a woman coming out of a two year marriage, for example.

Once you have kids, you are likely to be worse off (as a woman) than their father is, regardless of whether you are married or not. That's got far more to do the current state of women's opportunities at work than with marriage IMHO.

zippitippitoes · 20/11/2005 18:23

I can't imagine how introducing blame into divorce and settling finances accordingly would be possible..sounds ridiculous to me

CarolinaMoon · 20/11/2005 18:31

I know, zippi, it would be an utter minefield for judges, impossible for them to untangle every relationship like that.

My MIL is all for it though, since her divorce .

bosscat · 20/11/2005 18:37

I've actually found the opposite to be true actually. Its my friends who aren't married who have the attitude and strong feelings about it. If I hear "its so degrading to women" one more time I think I'll scream. Fine if that's your opinion don't do it I mean it isn't compulsory is it. I personally couldn't care less what my cohabiting friend does but she seems to have big views on my life choices.

ladymuck · 20/11/2005 18:46

Tatties, you've just illustrated my point - your commitment is private, not public. As such it would be uwise for people to assume that you are committed for life unles you have told them(think how offended all the people who are just dating for fun would be if everyone assumed that their relations was for life).

You appear to be judging marriage on the basis of historical assumptions, so people are likely to "judge" your relationship likewise. I suspect that the majority of married people would be astonished to think that you though that they were "owned" by their spouse.

Eaney · 20/11/2005 19:38

OK I still don't know how a married woman is better off legally if their relationship disolves. Could someone spell it out for me?

'Currently, when a married couple divorces, a court decides how to divide their property, based upon the needs of both spouses and any children they have. However, when a cohabiting couple break up, each person retains ownership of their own property. This system ensures that individuals who commit themselves to the institution of marriage have some legal protection.'

I must be slow today but I don't understand this.

In my situation we both work and earn almost exactly the same (I think I earn slightly more) we co-own our property and have 2 kids. Would I be safer if we were married?

ladymuck · 20/11/2005 19:46

I suspect if you both earn the same then there probably isn't much in it. However you are probably unusual in being so close in income. If you are well off there may well be inheritance tax advantages (especially IHT). I think that there is also a difference in perception to single mums who are divorced than if they were never married in the first place (I'm not agreeing that there should be btw, but is probably related to the perception that there is less commitment in unmarried partnerships at least on behalf of the men).

For a SAHM there is potentially a huge financial difference between the status of being married or not.

Eaney · 20/11/2005 19:58

I'm hoping to return to work PT so would then earn less. What would the financial advantage be to me then.

Thanks for info.

It's got us talking about marriage again but there never seems enough time in the day.

zippitippitoes · 20/11/2005 20:04

I don't think you can generalise as to who in a partnership would be better off in marriage..in our case I would potentially be in a much worse position if we subsequently split up if we married and dp would benefit enormously if we married as he would in inheritance terms..it depends who holds the assets, if anyone does. I suspect this is why he doesn't want to get married.

ladymuck · 20/11/2005 20:06

Sorry I didn't answer your question on the difference. As I understand it (and I am a layman in this area) if you are not married then the person who has the children living with them is entitled to some maintence from the non-resident parent. Married people may be entitiled to maintence for themsleves (not just for the children, and in particular may be entitled to maintenance even if there are no children or they are grown-up). You are also entitled to a share of assets dependant on the extent to which you contribute (preferably where you have some form of legal ownership as well).

If you are married then basic child support is the same, but the split of assets is based on more factors, with the prime factor being the ability for both partners to set up independently. So if a married woman hasn't contributed that much financially, or even just significantly less than her husband, she will generally come away with a better settlement than if she wasn't married. A married woman is also entitiled to participate in her husbands pension scheme, and to potentially get a split of this on separation - quite significant if you split up in middle age. Also occupational pension schemes are obliged to provide rights for spouses but not for cohabitees.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to correct me!

If you are a middle aged unmarried woman who has put her career on hold to bring up her family and you partner leaves you then you may have lost your potential pension, as well as having little current income (especially if you took a break to bring up kids), and possibly little in terms of assets.

Tatties · 20/11/2005 21:07

I didn't say I think married women belong to their husbands. I'm not judging marriage or married people! Just saying why it isn't for me. Everyone's view of marriage is different. As people have said here, for some it is a legal arrangement. For others it's about the dress and party (nothing wrong with that! At least you admit it.) For some the public declaration of love is what they want. Others see it as the right thing to do in light of religious beliefs. My view on marriage is coloured by what I know about its historical place in society, but of course I don't expect anyone else to share that view, just respect it and perhaps try to understand. I am not cohabiting because the man won't marry me (!), but because we would rather enter into a legal partnership which doesn't have all the associations of marriage.

OP posts:
stitch · 20/11/2005 23:46

tattie, i found your post of 3.38 very interesting. it seems that you are coming from a very christian traditional viewpoint here.
maybe because of where i was brought up, and because of the grounding in islamic law we had in school, i just dont think of marriage as an institution. it is a legal contract. and only a legal contract. it is nothing more, nothing less. a marriage at the register office with two witnesses off the street is as valid as a big white church wedding. in no way does a woman belong to any man. be he husband, father or brother.
its just a legal contract.

stitch · 20/11/2005 23:47

tatties, a marriage is a legal partnership of equals.

moondog · 21/11/2005 10:41

Agree with what you say tattie about the sexist assumption that it is women who want to marry.
My dh was desperate to marry from the start but I didn't come round for nine years.

rarrie · 21/11/2005 20:22

The only thing I do think is better for marriage, is for the bloke if they divorce... cheery subject but my friend is married, and her ex p has practically no rights to his child whatsoever as they were not married... but her new hubby has loads of rights.

Not sure if true, but she told me that when she went away even though the ex partner looked after the child, if something happenned to her, her mum had more rights than the dad did.

This would be a big concern to me!!

JessicaandRebeccasmummy · 21/11/2005 20:30

I tend to agree with you Tatties.... dont do big weddings etc etc etc, BUT, because DH is in the Army, we had no choice other than to get married if we wanted to live together in an Army house. The Army are still a bit old fashioned like that and you need to be married to get a house.
SAying that.... i didnt do the whole big white wedding thing. Popped down the registry office, had a meal at a hotel afterwards and then me and DH spent 1 night in the same hotel as our "honeymoon" - a total of 7 guests and that was it. All over and done with pretty quick - i was the only 21yr old bride i know to do it like that!

Tatties · 22/11/2005 09:51

Rarrie, I think as long as the father's name is on the birth certificate he has parental responsibily. J&R's mummy, if I was in your situation I would have done the same thing. As much as I object to old-fashioned rules, you can't let them get in the way of your being together if they are not likely to be changed in your lifetime!

OP posts:
rarrie · 23/11/2005 02:05

Apparrently not, Unless the father goes to court to get those rights, then he has none. This is from a website advising fathers of their rights:

"Few unmarried father's realise that when their new bundle of joy is born that they have no rights to stay in the life of that child. For example an unmarried father is not able to inspect medical records, or obtain details of school progress of their children. These rights completely depend on the goodwill of the mother. To obtain equal rights as mothers is a very simple procedure called a Parental Responsibility Agreement and usually involves a short visit to a local family court. Fathers are advised to do this soon after the child is born. Click on the above link for details."

The thing is if you go to all the effort of securing your rights in court, why not just get married? (If commitment is not a problem!!) it gives more rights, not just for children.. but inheritances etc etc otherwise, to secure exactly the same rights as a married person, you'd probably end up spending more time in court, and paying out more money than a simple registry office wedding!

rarrie · 23/11/2005 02:07

PPS At my school, unmarried separated fathers do not have access to a child's records or any info, like reports, right to attend parents' evenings unless there is specific permission from the mother. If they are divorced however, then the school would give each parent equal info - send out two copies of reports etc, regardless of mother's views (unless an abuse issue, of course!!)

Blackduck · 23/11/2005 06:34

PR is an automatic right to the father IF his name is on the Birth Cert AND the child was born after Dec 2003.

rarrie · 23/11/2005 17:27

Ahh, that'll be it then, as the child I know who is affected, and the children I teach are all over the age of 2!! presuming that is that PR does not apply to children currently over the age of 2 ish.

Lizita · 25/11/2005 12:38

haven't read the whole thread, but reminded me of myself - i found out i was pregnant (with someone else's child) just after getting together with my dp. We were always getting "I assume you'll be living together?" and my very best friend still can't understand why we still, 2 1/2 yrs later, don't live together. She thinks our relationship isn't "moving on" and she doesn't get what a huge move it would be for us to live together. (I'm happy being a single mum, my dp has other stuff going on in his life, and he's not ready to be a "dad" yet. We are however v committed, loving, he adores my dd & vice versa, and we both see a future together etc etc). Having said all that, my mum was telling me about someone she met who is with a pregnant woman (not his child) and before i knew what I was doing I said "I assume they're living together then?" and was so shocked at myself! For some reason old conventions such as marriage, 2.4 children etc, are just inbedded in us i reckon.

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