The Brave Babes Battle Bus - Head To The Summer Of Sobriety

[Mouseface]

Hello

I'm Mouse

Welcome aboard The Brave Babe's Battle Bus. There are a whole host of lovely posters here who will support your journey to sobriety, however you choose to get there.

We are a Bus full of drinkers, non-drinkers and those who are somewhere in between.

BUT - we will never judge or leave a poster out in the cold. So, find a seat and settle down for the journey ahead.

And HERE is the last thread and those before it too. Just follow the links to read the journeys so far.

qo - not at all re voicing how you feel, that's why I want to know what you find upsetting/patronising/insulted.

We all voice how we feel on here. Some of us shout, some of us whisper. And I'm with JWN on here that MIF has tried (more than once) to explain himself and you are unable to accept that.

I'd also like to know who else has been this upset by MIF, can you tell me who? I've seen the odd spat with him and remember some posts but I can't reemember the names.

Qo

It IS being addressed, isn't it? you've said what you think. Again, if I've upset you, I'm sorry - but I think we must have a different idea of what "insult" means. Again, I'm not apologising for that because, as far as I can see, I haven't done it.

And I personally wouldn't tell anyone to just "suck it up" - but, by the same token, nor am I going to waste my time typing out things I don't believe.
I also don't believe that, if this was a pub or wine bar, you'd leave because of one annoying fellow drinker - why are you running for the door just because of something I've said? By all means tell me to piss off; by all means ignore me. But, even if I am no help at all, there is help to be had here. So, if you really want help, why leave?

You are right, I was being disingenuous in the incident you mention, ironically because I didn't want to come across too heavy handed. Here's what I should have said:

1. your drinking is causing your anxiety - so stop drinking
2. if that sounds unattractive, then examine the alternatives - how are the next two years going to pan out if you continue to drink?
3. if it sounds impossible, then examine the precise practical steps that you have taken to stop drinking. Why did you drink this time, knowing what you do about you and drink (and I would imagine that anxiety, though horrible, is far from the worst of it)?

You're right, it's not that simple - and yet, on a very straightforward level, you know it IS that simple. So what is stopping you putting that very simple practical plan into action? Are you afraid of what life will be like without a drink? I don't blame you; I was. You'll need some serious support on that one and you should look for it now.

Or do you think that maybe there is a way that you can become a social drinker? Maybe there is - but, again, finding out whether or not you can is something urgent, because it wouldn't do to be wrong on that score.

I'm really sorry if this isn't what you want to hear. Like I said, I didn't want to scare you off. But if you know that drinking causes your anxiety and yet you continue to drink, then for your own sanity you need to examine what is stopping you from taking the (to non-alcoholics) obvious solution of stopping drinking.

During my first year of trying to get sober, I had at least half-a-dozen "slips" and I had a different reason for each one. Looking back, they all had the same reaosn - I wasn't taking my sobriety seriously and I never thought the truly bad stuff would happen to me. When I finally confronted that, I stopped drinking. in one fell swoop I went from my sobriety lasting 1 week-6 months max, to lasting eight years and counting.

I hope this helps someone.

See, this is why I so much value your posts ... it's that knotty problem of everything being at once very simple, and oh-so far from simple that you get across so clearly.

It helps me, certainly. And you can take that as a real compliment because you and I are very different, I think, in the ways we react. All parts of the mosaic of experience, maybe?

Thanks, that's a good way of putting it.

All I have to offer is my experience - I'm not a doctor, I'm not a healer, I'm not an academic (well, I would have been if the drink hadn't got in the way - but what use is French literature in solving drinking problems anyway?) All I bring to this discussion is my own experience. I drank like a much older man, so that I was a wreck at 28; I stopped drinking and haven't drunk for eight years; my life is better as a result.

and that didn't happen by magic; I didn't wake up and think, "I'll stop drinking tday"; and it CERTAINLY didn't happen because I'm some kind of saint or genius.

It happened because I got help. And some of it, in retrospect, was more helpful than others.

That's what I try and pass on, to help others and to help myself.

Sadly, the most helpful help was often the help I liked least. The ONLY reason I stayed in AA (which is where I found that help - you may all find yours somewhere else) is because, every time I left, I found I didn't have a better idea.

"I don't judge anyone, beyond assuming that people on here have a problem with drink - problem meaning that they drink too much, but also that they are having a problem not doing so."

It is pretty harsh to assume that everyone who posts here because they would like to cut down on alcohol is an alcoholic.

"Answer these questions Yes or No as honestly and truthfully as possible.

1.Do I lose time from work due to my drinking?

2.Is drinking making my home life unhappy?

3.Do I drink because I am shy with other people?

4.Is drinking affecting my reputation?

5.Do I ever feel remorse after drinking?

6.Have gotten into financial difficulties as a result of my drinking?

7.Do I turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?

8.Does my drinking make me careless about my family's welfare?

9.Has my ambition decreased since drinking?

10.Do I crave a drink at a definite time daily?

11.Do I want a drink the next morning?

12.Does drinking cause me to have difficulty in sleeping?

13.Has my efficiency decreased since drinking?

14.Is drinking jeopardizing my job or business?

15.Do I drink to escape from worries or troubles?

16.Do I drink alone?

17.Have I every had a complete loss of memory as a result of drinking?

18.Has a physician ever treated me for drinking?

19.Do I drink to build up self-confidence?

20.Have I ever been in a hospital or institution for my drinking?

If you answered YES to any ONE of these questions, there is a definite warning that YOU MAY BE AN ALCOHOLIC.

If you answered YES to any TWO of the question, the chances are YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC.

If you answered YES to any THREE OR MORE, YOU ARE DEFINITELY AN ALCOHOLIC.

(The test Questions are used by John Hopkins University Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland, in deciding whether or not a patient is an alcoholic)"

Silent

There's a reason I don't use the word alcoholic and it is that not everyone is happy with it being applied to them, irrespective of whether they are or aren't one; and also that definitions vary.

I used the word "problem drinker" and that's what I'm sticking with.

A test used by a hospital in America is nothing to do with me.

I call myself an alcoholic because I'm happy with that, I think I am one and I know what I mean by it. But I won't be calling anyone else one without knowing a lot more about them and unless they ask me directly for my opinion.

incidentally, since we're discussing tests like that, I score 18 out of 20 so it's hardly a dangerous grey area for me personally.

I think a problem drinker follows roughly the same criteria wherever in the world you are. UK psychiatrists use the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, so the information in this country is much the same.

silent - im having trouble understanding you - on the one hand you say you are not dependent on alchohol, that is does not affect you in any way, on the other, you post here asking for support in cutting down and then get defensive when you hear things you dont like

tbh, im not sure how we can help you. perhaps you can tell us!

btw, i score 13

A problem drinker is someone who has a problem with drink. You don't need a test to decide that. You can answer it yourself. Is your life shit? Do you drink? There's probably a connection.

An alcoholic is quite a nebulous thing and even Alcoholics Anonymous shies away from defining what it is or judging whether the individual deserves the name.

If you feel they are synonymous, then go for it. But I go to great lengths NOT to call people alcoholics. I cannot imagine anyone coming here who wasn't a problem drinker - why would you? Whether you or anyone else is an alcoholic is not something I can say, so I won't.

NEW THREAD is here

Also, the main problem in treating alcoholics is getting the patient to agree that (s)he IS an alcoholic - that is the main purpose of tests like that (and why the scores are so low - much safer to misdiagnose in that direction than in the other.) Doctors - like my family, friends, exes and drinking companions - didn't need a 20 question test to decide whether I'm an alcoholic. They just watched me in action and drew their own conclusions.

I scored 9 so what does that make me? I scored on the 'troubles and worries' type questions

Hello,
Brilliant title Mouse
xxx

Mouseface

it makes you half an alcoholic - you get to choose whether you are an alco or a holic.

JWN - 13? Lightweight.

silent, I don't think it's 'harsh' ... it's just the same as the way that people on MN often ask me how old my children are - they don't assume I'm a mum because they're being judgy; it's just this site has a majority of posters who are mums. I don't have kids, I'm broody, and yes it stings a bit ... but it's a natural assumption. I suspect that is teh same with 'alcoholic' here.

FWIW, I score 8. I know I'm an alcoholic. But I am very different from jesus or mouse or miflaw or ma .... or really anyone on this thread. And they're different from each other. It doesn't I think matter if you're coming at this from a different place from us - just take what helps and leave the rest.

I find I often skip discussions about how alcoholism affects one's kids ... obviously, it's not really relevant to me in that way. Likewise, drinking didn't make me a less productive worker (annoyingly, it helped me get through parts of my work ... grrr ....), so, again, I don't have a huge amount to contribute to discussions about how alcohol spoils your work life.

These are just examples. Everyone is different - others on this thread won't have my problems and might not recognize themselves in what I would describe as 'an alcoholic'. That's ok: no reason they should.

PS - I am a problem drinker. My life wasn't shit though, it was going great. To me, the analogy with depression is better.

Some people drink to escape problems. This is not good. Me, I didn't need to have problems to escape, in order to find a reason to drink. My life was going really well ... and still I chose to drink. That's how I know I have a problem.

Btw: here MIF and I, as so often, are almost diametrically opposed in what we say. But I think (could be wrong), that he will understand what I'm saying, as I understand what he's saying. It doesn't matter that we disagree. So, when you read something on here you think is not right, that's fine! Say so: don't feel it's a command you have to abide by.

Oh dear. I'll leave. I had thought that this thread included people who would like to cut down before alcohol disrupted their lives. As I have said before many times, I have seen and noted what addictive behaviour entails. I have been addicted myself. To lie to myself at this stage would be folly. There is a huge difference between communicating with other people and communing with a bottle. The relationship changes to the bottle. I have seen it happen around me to family and friends. It is not the same as simply getting drunk. I find self-destructive behaviour very hard to deal with, and I continue to work with myself to prevent it in myself. However, being rather imperfect, I do not always succeed.
I will not post again as it would appear I am in the wrong place.

oi! who are you calling a lightweight! i could drink you under the table anytime!

silent, I don't really understand .... you say you have a problem with drinking and want to cut down, yes? But you don't want to post on a thread about cutting down on alcohol because some people here admit they're alcoholics?

If you are seeking support in cutting down on alcohol, it shouldn't come as a great surprise to find many others seeking and providing that support are admitted problem drinkers and alcoholics, should it?

silent - you dont have to leave, of course anyone can post here, i simply asked a question!

FWIW I think this

"If you answered YES to any THREE OR MORE, YOU ARE DEFINITELY AN ALCOHOLIC"

is bollocks. You could do a poll of undergraduates and get a LOT of people answering yes to three or more of 3,10,12,13,15,17 and 19.

The problem drinkers and alcoholics are the ones who carry on like that when their responsibilities have increased or when society expects them to have found other strategies to their problems.

Oh, absolutely, MIFLAW.

There's a whole area of psychology that looks at the way people respond to tests differently. A questionnaire like that will always be a very blunt instrument. The crucial thing is, they are not designed to convince you you don't have a problem - they are for people who're worried they do have a problem. It's like when we say 'look, an alcoholic isn't necessarily the man on the park bench with his booze in a paper bag, it might also be the professional in a suit or the mum with her toddler': you can't then reverse that illustration and say 'well, I'm not a professional in a suit either so that's ok!'

Ooh, last post! See you on the new thread everyone!