He tried to have sex with me while I was asleep

[maristella]

And I'm very fucking angry about it.

The more I tried to stop him, the more he interpreted my movement as a green light. I kept saying let me sleep, I rolled away until I ha nowhere left to go, I kept taking his hands and cock away from me. The only way I was able to make him stop was to get out of bed. He looked so utterly wounded and rejected

It was a new relationship, I really liked him, and this was the first time we spent the night together, and the last.

I fucking hate him, I have rejected all his calls since and he is still ringing and texting. I know I should have spelled it out to him, but I knew I would have been bombarded. He sent me loads of emails saying he wanted to spend the weekend with me and DS; he's never met my DS! I don;t ever want him to meet DS, ever! I emailed back (the only contact I've made to him since I stayed over) and said I really don;t want a relationship. But he is still fucking trying!

I could actually go to the police, which might mean that mutual friends and family are dragged into this, I might be vilified for this. I don;t want or deserve that. I could carry on dodging him. I might flip and call him a pervert and threaten to tell my family and our friends.

I just needed to let that out....

All irrelevant bigbuttons - if a women says NO that should be the end of it, regardless of what she is wearing, where she is sleeping, who she is with.

Well yes, no is no, I agree on that.

No I would not think a young woman wearing next to nothing was dressed for hot weather. If she has a skirt up to her arse and a top that showed everything but her nipples I would think that she was showing off her body in a sexually provocative manner. In a "look at me" way
I dress for hot weather and I don't dress like that. In my youth, however, I most certainly did. Women dress like that to attract male attention.
Is that a wrong thing to do? Certainly not. Could it be risky thing to do? Quite possibly.

I want to add to the record as well:

This was attempted rape. The man tried to forcefully shove his penis into the OP when she said no several times. That is the definition of attempted rape.

Buttons - if a man you were in bed with tried to force himself on you, you would NOT be to blame. It is ok to trust people you have got to know pretty well, as in the case of the OP. If they betray that trust, they are to blame, not you.

Buttons Yes she might be dressed in a "look at me" way, but that's not "rape me" is it?

What is dressing in a sexual manner? A dress? a top that shows some cleavage.
How about the would-be rapists control themselves? Why should I modify my dress sense because some idiot thinks showing some leg is a come on? Surely it's the male behaviour that should be looked at? Where does this sense of sexual rights come from?

Joining in on the side of hysterical rational female thinkers. No is always no...not maybe, possibly, er ok then! NO

He went beyond trying it on and launched into attempted rape.

There was a thread before where a poster had a very similar horrific experience, (he did not accept her no and carried on regardless). She was shocked, scared, afraid and angry when confronted by posters telling her it was rape, After reading the legal links etc she realised that HE was wrong, had acted illegally and had raped her.

Attempting to penetrate a sleeping person is automatically attempting to rape them in the eyes of the law. Sleeping people can not consent to sex so default setting in that instance is rape/attempted rape.

Totally different from someone waking you with gentle hands or voice to gain consent.
Totally different from both people being awake and one trying it on a couple of times and gently gaining consent.
Totally different from saying no and both of you rolling over and going back to sleep.

The op was woken up by the man attempting to penetrate her vagina with his penis. No gentle encouragement, no attempt to wake her so she could consent to and participate in sexual intercourse. His intention was to insert his penis and have sex with a sleeping (unconscious) woman.

This alone is Illegal. No shades of grey, no excuses.

The fact that she woke up before he had got his dick in is not the end and does not excuse his behavior.

SHE WOKE UP AND SAID NO

He continued to attempt penetration, forcibly positioning her body so he could get his penis in her. All the while she is telling him to stop, no, get off etc.

This is not gentle persuasion/encouragement of a reluctant/coy person, game playing or any other strange reasoning some posters are coming up with.

It was attempted rape. The man is at best deluded with very poor boundaries and at worst a potential rapist, both being a danger to women. The op managed to get out of the bed and home of a would be rapist. That is down to her strength of will and determination. He needs to be warned by the police to stay away from you. In an ideal world he would be charged with his crime but that action is for the op to decide.

I said no to DH the other night, he said ok and rolled over. I lay in bed thinking about it for a few minutes then decided I was in the mood so cuddled into dh and let him know. "but you said no" was his response, not huffy or sulking, just questioning me to be sure I was giving consent. "I changed my mind" We had sex. He didn't need to pester/nag/whine TBH that makes me more determined not to change my mind.

Exactly strawberry, a woman's clothes do not negate the need for consent on both sides. Rape isn't about sexual attraction ffs. Plenty of women are subjected to horrific assaults when they have worn trousers/jeans etc, how does that play into your scenario?

I sometimes wear short shorts and vest tops when I walk the dogs. Just to be clear this is because I enjoy the feel of the sun on my skin, they are comfortable and practical and I like being tanned. It is not because I wish to have sex with my fellow dogs walkers.

Do I think it is risky behaviour? No, not really. I expect men to be intelligent enough to realise that my state of dress or undress is in no way an invitation for them to rape me.

buttons - do you also believe that if you leave your window open then you deserve to be burgled? If you drive an expensive car do you deserve to have it stolen? If your teen has nice trainers do they deserve to be mugged?

it is a very strange attitude that it is the victims fault for a criminals actions.

Every day i go to Tesco and see great big expensive Tv's. Not once have i been temptedto steal one. do you know why? Because i am not a theif.

I could walk around naked in front of most men and not expect to be raped. Because they are not rapists.

Rapists rape. not men

Bigbuttons, it's a woman's prerogative if she wants to dress in very little and invite sex. But she doesn't have to accept the first offer she gets.

If I stand on top of the Westfield shopping centre with a short skirt and megaphone and annouce to the world that I feel like having sex, I am not obliged to do it with the first man who responds with interest.

swtrawberrymewmew I have been quite specific with my words. Of course lying next to your DP does not signal that you are always up for it. But being in a relationship does send out a signal that in the absence of an explicit refusal in words or actions that you may be open to a sexual approach from your DP.

To suggest otherwise is in my opinion ridiculous and makes it harder for many people to comprehend the essential message that no means no regardless of circumstances.

If I am waiting at a bar for my DH and he sneaks up behind me and wraps his arms round my waist an kisses my neck despite not having my explicit consent that is not to my mind an assault. If a stranger did the same it absolutely is.

Of course I am not suggesting it gives you less of a right to say no. Again I think I made it plain that no always means no regardless of the circumstances and that you are always entitled to say no.

Again apologies to Maristella for going off on a tangent but I felt the need to clarify my views so as not to be lumped in with the crazies.

Thank you GeekCool.

This thread has gone crazy, and by law I could walk down the street in just a pair of knickers. I still wouldn't expect or want anyone to force sex with me because of my lack of clothes.

Just the same as if a man is walking about in just shorts and no tshirt, no one would have the right to think he was dressed like that because he wanted sex. No everyone would think it was to be comfortable.

Nancy I have spoken to my DP about this.

If I was sleeping in bed with him and he woke me up in that manner and refused to get off, we would both consider that the definition of rape.

But this wouldn't happen, because if I pushed him a way and said no in a serious tone, he would respect me and leave me alone.
A relationship is about trust and respect.
No ifs no buts.

"It's almost funny the way feminists are told we're man-haters, when we're the ones who insist that men should not be viewed as if they're all rapists. And yet the women who go around telling feminists they're man-haters, are the ones with terribly low opinions of men."

HerBeX I totally agree. I'm too weary and sad to even have the clothes discussion now.

I've read the whole of this thread with my jaw on the ground, literally, but wasn't going to post until I read bigbuttons last post.

A few years ago, I got quite drunk and missed my last train home, and my lovely (male) work colleague offered me his spare lounge sofa bed to crash on.

Because I was really drunk, does that mean I asked for him to come downstairs and have sex with me when I was in no fit state to push him off/say no (or yes for that matter, something he would have made sure he'd heard if he was a decent man)?

For a long time I thought it was my fault, mainly because of arguments like yours, bigbuttons. It took me two years to tell my mother and a couple of close friends what had happened, and it was only from their reaction and their support that I realised I had actually been raped. I had effectively been a blow up doll for him.

If I'd not felt so guilty about my behaviour and had instead focused on his behaviour, maybe I would have had the courage to go to the police.

Perpetuating the utter crap that certain behaviours encourage negative outcomes allows rapists to continue to get away with it.

maristella I hope that you are able to put a stop to his nonsense. I agrfee that a strong harrassment warning from the police will help.

Yes, bigbuttons, you were lucky that none of those men took advantage when you did not know them well enough to trust them. But I would not use the word "culpable". The risk you took was that they would behave like decent human beings, which fortunately they did (because, as some of us "man-haters" keep saying, the majority of men actually are decent human beings). Had they not done so, the fault would have been all theirs. If someone blips you on the head when you are walking down a dark alley, they are going to be prosecuted for blipping you on the head and rightly so. You may have been unwise to walk down there without an escort or an alarm, but you weren't guilty of anything. Or if you walked across at the traffic lights without looking because the green man is showing; you have every right to walk across, and if anyone ran you over it would be their fault for not stopping at the red light, but you would still be unwise to trust they are going to stop when they should, so you look both ways to be sure (I hope). Failure to take such precautions does not render you guilty in case of an accident, but since the consequences of not being cautious could be fatal you take them anyway.

I remember having an argument once with a girl at work who said that women drivers cause more accidents than men, because women drive at the speed limit and slow down and signal and stuff so the drivers behind them become impatient and take risks. I couldn't get through to her that there was something backwards in such thinking, as I can't get through to you either, and yet you are presumably a rational human being whilst I am admittedly a rather eccentric one.

Besides, the OP did the equivalent of slowing down and looking both ways when she dated, for a respectable length of time, a man who was already known to herself and mutual friends before putting herself in a vulnerable situation, ie being alone in a house with an adult human being of the opposite whatsit. Her "culpability", even on the skewed arguments employed here, was nil.

Oh you poor rape apologists who don't know what decent men are like. Let me tell you a little story about how normal men act. A friend of mine got close to a woman at work whom he fancied. Every friday night they would all go out (work colleagues) and get drunk togethr. He rolled back to her house six fridays in a row, where they would fool around, get nekkid get into her bed. And at the moment before penetration, she would say "stop". So he stopped.

On the fourth friday after it had happened 3 weeks in a row, he told her he didn't want to come back with her, but she persuaded him and the same thing happened. Then on the fifth friday, then on the sixth. On the sixth friday, he was so pissed off with both her and himself, for having allowed her to talk him into coming back to her flat once again with no penetrative sex at the end of it, that he got up, got dressed and stormed out of her flat telling her to leave him the fuck alone.

At that point, or indeed any point on any of those fridays, he could have raped his work colleague and he would have got away with it scott free, because every one had seen them getting drunk together, kissing, canoodling etc. Most of their colleagues assumed they were having sex because they would leave together every friday in a taxi snogging. If he'd raped her, they would all have been incredulous and said that it must have been a grey area, that what did she expect getting naked and drunk into bed with a man.

D'you know why he didn't rape her? Because he's not a rapist. He was frustrated, pissed off, disappointed, slightly embarrassed by following his own hopeful penis instead of using his brain and slightly embarrassed but amused by his temper tantrum on the way out, but not once did he assume that he had the right to penetrate her without her consent. That is how normal, non-rapey men behave ladies. Any man who tells you that he was entitled to shag her because of her grey area, mixed signals, is a man you should avoid being in unchaparoned company with.

"But being in a relationship does send out a signal that in the absence of an explicit refusal in words or actions that you may be open to a sexual approach from your DP. "

But there was an explicit refusal in words and actions. He tried it on. She said no and tried to move away. That's where it should have ended. It didn't. He kept trying, and trying until she had to get out of the bed and the house. That's where it changed from being a cheeky way to wake someone up, to attempted rape.

So at 4 o'clock in the morning when you're fast asleep, being in a relationship with someone means that he can stick his cock in you because you haven't said no? Or if you've just had a huge row with him about the washing up, it woudl be reasonable for him to assume you're up for a bit of the old other because you didn't yell at him : "FGS, I've done it every night this week and I don't want to do it again - oh and BTW I don't want a fuck either!"

I obviously have never learned to argue properly in a relationship.

strawberrymew I agree with you. I think I have made that clear. Repeatedly.

I do however believe that being in bed with someone that you have an ongoing sexual relationship with does give out signals. That is absolutely not the same as me saying that it suggests you are "always up for it" or that a man can have you "whenever he feels the urge" as some have suggested.

Neither does it mean that you cannot and should not say no or that it makes it in someway Ok if you are raped in those circumstances.

What it means is that the starting point is different from an interaction with a stranger. A stranger has no reason to believe you might consent and should make it his business to seek your explicit consent at the outset. Not so with a DP. I believe they are entitled to assume that you will consent until the point that you don't whether that is first caress or half way through intercourse.

At which point I think we all agree that any man with a shred of decency will stop. If he doesn't then in addition to being a dispicable person he is guilty of an offence.

Nancy, the starting point is always the same - that women have the right to say when and where they want to be penetrated.

Most men understand that. It's only then rapey ones who don't or who pretend not to - those who are keeping the option on the table, of raping women, who go on about "grey areas" and "mixed signals" - the friend I described, felt he was getting mixed signals. Which pissed him off. So he left. He didn't use the mixed signals, as an excuse to rape.... because he's not a rapist.

Every time epople go on and on and on about mixed signals, different starting points, etc., they are lining up with rapists against victims and decent men. Why would anyone want to do that?

But it's not even like the person the OP was in bed with was her DH.

They didn't even have a long relationship, they would still be getting to know each other.

And I agree with the person that said if they were in bed with their DH the only signals they would be sending out is that they wish to sleep.

But nancy, the circumstances leading up to a rape and the relationship between the rapist and victim are irrelevant, as is the man's intent or motive.

A rape begins at the point where the woman's refusal to consent is ignored. It's as simple as that.

It's pointless trying to make distintions between different 'types' and 'hierarchies' of rape, because whether it's a stranger or a partner or a friend or a relative or he's holding a gun to your head or you're wearing a short skirt or you're a nun - NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

The legal test for rape is:

Did the woman consent/was she physically able to consent?

If no, did the man have sex with her anyway?

If yes to the above, it's rape.

You can not consent when you are asleep. Relationship or no relationship. I'd be seriously fucking pissed off if I woke up to find my DH raping me. It would be the end of our relationship.

Attempting to wake someone up with a little foreplay or kissing is different if you are in a trusting relationship, but they still need to stop when/if you say no.