DP doesn't believe in marriage

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Bit of background. I have been a lurker for many years but have used to post more frequently about 6/7 years ago.

Have been with DP for almost 2 years. Planning to move in over next few months. I have one ds. He has three dds.

He was not married to the mother of his daughters, although she wanted to. He does not see the need for marriage. His parents were divorced, he is not sure if this is the reason. Even though I am divorced, I still value marriage and think it is important.

I love DP dearly but am starting to really resent his attitude to marriage. He is a very stubborn sort, I think he is unlikely to change his mind. Does anyone have any experience of this? Before I uproot my son and move in with him, I need to have this straight in my head. Do I stick to my guns and therefore forfeit what is otherwise a good relationship? Or do I grin and bear it... and if so, how do I silence the voice in my head that is screaming "IF HE REALLY LOVED YOU, HE WOULD MARRY YOU!" (always wanted to do one of those!)

Oh how nice to agree with people for a change.

Agree with spidookly, it sounds like he is not willing to budge an inch and expects you to give up two things which are really important to you without any thought of compromise from himself.

Marriage was a dealbreaker for me and after nearly 4 years of my dp refusing to talk about it (he would pretend he hadn't heard me or just refused to respond) I said I wasn't prepared to have children if he wasn't prepared to marry me. He thought about it for about 30 seconds and said 'let's get married then' and we have been happily married for over two years and have a lovely ds. He said that he had been totally closed off and hard as a person before (didn't want to get hurt) but when he saw me walk down the aisle something changed inside, and then when ds was born it finished him off!

(I suspect his previous 10 year relationship ended because he refused to commit and he maybe thought that this time he was getting too old to start over again!)

My DH has said that if anything happened to me he would never remarry. He would not want our money (ie the assets we have built up over 25 years) to go to anyone other than our children.

My cousin, who owned three shops (bought with his own money), remarried and within five years she had left him and taken half of his assets. He ended up bankrupt.

Committing when you have nothing is easy, it is more of a problem if you have assets and children to consider as the UK does not recognise pre-nups.

empirestateofmind I do not know your dh, so no comment on your personal situation. However, just a point of caution of trusting too much with all this assurances: my friends father remarried almost immediately after his wife's death despite similar discussions. Now he is immersed into his new family including his new wife's grandkids and my friend is worried that her mum's personal stuff (especially jewelry and family furniture) maybe split been two families upon his death.

If you are certain that you want your children to inherit you need to make a will accordingly and not rely on someone's word, however in good faith uttered...

Incidentally, rightly or wrongly my own mum passed everything she had to me including the house where my dad lives. I pay for this property, all the upkeep and all the utilities (gas, elec, phone, everything), he pays only for his stuff. He also remarried rather quickly (no judgement, I think it is better for a person to have a company). My dad tried to challenge it in court, but failed (not a UK jurisdiction).

I can only guess my mum trusted me more to be fair than she did my dad.

Very stirring posts Spidookly.
Remind us all that marriage at its best is an honourable tradition, one that brave committed people enter into to ensure that all involved are protected and cherished, not least of all the children.

I like your style.

Good points bemybebe. Our wills are 15 years old and I have been thinking for a few years they should be updated. It is the sort of thing it is all too easy to put off. I shall get myself organised ASAP.

He doesn't believe in marriage. I've no patience for people who don't believe in marriage myself- it exists. It is what it is: a legally-binding entity and people can take it or leave it according to wishes, but to say he doesn't 'believe' in it makes him sound like an unthinking ignoramus.

I wouldn't move in with him- if BOTH of you were neutral towards marriage- then it would not reflect how committed you were to each other i.e. you would not be able to tell either way if super committed to relationship or not at all (although, unless legal stuff is sorted, a marriage 'neutral' couple could find themselves in trouble further down the line).

But it is not like that. You want to marry, he is dead set against it? You must find out why If it is because he genuinely feels it is just a piece of paper, say to him: 'Fine, but you'd still be willing to sign bits of paper so I'm not chucked out on your whim, won't you?'

If he won't do this; don't move in with him.
If you do move in make it clear that what is his is his and what's yours is yours in event of splitting up and what is jointly owned belongs to two of you.

And if you win lottery, get fed up of his sanctimonious, 'principled' ways, and decide to leave, tell him, in no uncertain, terms: 'Now now, you can't have MY money as you don't believe in marriage'. That'll show him.

Sorry, my post sounds a bit harsh. I'm just cynical, I suppose. Because to me, there is no real reason to believe in marriage or not, and the idea of a 'principled' stance against it is ridiculous to me- surely all it is in reality is a legal tie and what people make of it is up to them?
My gut feeling is that your dp is leading you a merry little dance here, he is going on about not marrying you without telling you what I feel to be the REAL reason and I think the real reason is that he wants to just separate without shelling out monies (if you split up). Now if he were to be straight and say, 'Sorry, love, but if we split you are not getting any money from you, but I expect nothing from you, either', I could respect that.
After all, why should you get anything if just cohabiting? But that's not the point. The point is this: he's getting you all tied up in knots when if he had any balls - he could just be straight with you and save you the anguish.

That should be: 'not getting any money from ME'

There's an odd assumption that if OP moves in with this bloke then should should have some "financial security"? Why? He owns the house, he pays for it, they don't have kids. If anything, OP will be better off because she doesn't have rent to pay.

Is it any wonder that some men are dubious about marriage if people are as mercenary as this thread suggests?

Amateurish Not from me there is not- as far as I'm concerned, the only people who have an automatic right to monies in event of split is the married-after all, they did promise lifetime commitment, didn't they? Else, he gets his, she gets hers, and anything bought jointly is split down the middle.

That's not why I think Evil's partner is being unreasonable, though, too many men say they have a principled stance against marriage when what they REALLY mean is that they wish to avoid shelling out monies in event of split.
But instead of just saying so, they hide it behind nonsense such as a 'principled stance' and their partners then come on boards like this to ask others to fathom them out. What right-thinking person has a 'principled stance' against marriage-marriage is what a couple make it!

Evil: based on his experiences so far, he may well have a distrust of comittment, and assume that relationships will end, and be focussing on marriage as the expression of something he is afraid to celebrate because he feels it might let him down, and he is terrified of being let down.
Or he might be a classic comittment-phobe.
Either way you are not feeling easy about this.
Would seeing Relate help? Or if he is anxious about money and his children, see a lawyer together to discuss some options?

Until you know exactly why he is so averse to marriage, it's hard to assess how important it is to your relationship or how to tackle it (if it can be tackled).

And what exactly is it for you that makes marriage so crucial to love and domestic harmony?

It's not that she should be entitled to a share of his house.

It's more.

OP is moving into a (I assume) fully kitted out house. What happens to all her stuff? Does she get rid of it all? Does she put it into storage and rack up storage costs for the how ever long future? Do they make space for her stuff in his house (furniture/white goods etc)? If something breaks who replaces it? Who owns it? Can she decorate any where as she likes or is it 'his' house and she just has to accept what he has or wants in there for the next however many years? If they decide she is not allowed it into his house and she gets rid of it all she is stuck if they separate and she has nothing to take with her.

Does her DS get a room of his own as he is there full time? Do his DDs have to compromise as there will be an extra child in terms of space etc or does her son get a tiny corner and minimal space? Can he tell her DS off? Can she tell his DDs off? Do his DDs have more lax rules than her son as they are there less often?

Is OP going to become responsible for all cooking/cleaning/housework for all of them? How will this be fairly split?

If they split up will he want her out this day/this week? How long?

If he dies how long will she have to sort out moving for herself and her son before the house rightly goes to his DDs and what if anything is she entitled to take from the house? Bed, cooker, toothbrush?

If she is paying all the food bills and so he has spare money to pay for an extension/new kitchen etc, could he do that with out her income? Therefore maybe she is entitled to something from the property.

If they are together for the next 25/30 years even unmarried is she still not entitled to take a bed from the house?

They need to talk this through thoroughly so both of them know exactly what they are getting into.

I don't think your ready to move in together. If he gets twitchy feel just because you mention financial matters then I don't think you should take the step of moving in together. You have your kids to think about too.

Xales I agree. A couple decides to make a home together, they share it, to the degrees possible imho. Nothing to do with material/financial side, it is becoming OP's home also isn't it? Otherwise, WHY move?? If it is about two people deciding to have regular sex, nobody needs to move homes.

share does not mean 50x50 btw. But it means being clear about the rules.

Lots of great advice here as usual.

If you ultimately want to get married and he definitely doesn't you are on a hiding to nothing. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Have been here myself and spent an utterly exhausting and frustrating three years with someone.

Always decide on what you want and hold out for that. Second best isn't good enough for you, lovely lady!

:)

Thanks everyone. Have been busy with ds, day trips etc then getting home late. It's not actually the financial stuff that bothers me. I'm planning to put my stuff into storage, if we split I'll take it out and rent (or buy if my resources allow; this is not subject to receiving anything from him, rather reflecting the fact that I hope to be able to focus more on my career in the years to come). I don't actually see that he owes me anything. For me it is about the commitment and showing the world he loves me. Now we have explored our feelings further, he says his commitment to me is in living with me, being a stepdad to ds and planning our futures. He has also said that if in the future I still feel the same about marriage, it might happen, but that he won't promise. Whenever I say that marriage enhances and strengthens a relationship, he gently points out I am divorced! It's kind of hard to argue with that really.

Marriage is pretty well the only flexible legal protection you have, if you don't jointly own property. As things stand it's also the only way you get any recognition of non-monetary contributions - childcare, looking after a family home, etc. Basically if you split up in 30 years because he left you for someone else, and you'd brought up his kids plus 3 more of your own, he'd not owe you a penny more than you'd put in. A married couple are financially responsible for one another. An unmarried couple are not in any way.

I wouldn't move in without marriage. And didn't, in fact.

I appreciate you don't think the money matters now, but the thing is, as you already know, things change in life. That's pretty well the only constant. And if it is hugely important to you, he shouldn't be saying, "maybe one day" because, forgive me, he's not likely to agree down the line when the status quo is to be unmarried, if he isn't willing now when it may be a dealbreaker.

The point about finances is that you never know what life has in store for you, or for him. Marriage is flexible that way. He owes you nothing financially now, no, but you can't know what non-financial contributions you may make to the family down the line - or vice versa if you are the main earner. Marriage is a way of protecting that, IMO.

I'd just say place no weight on his 'might happen'. Take it as a 'won't happen'. I think it's an unfair carrot of him to dangle, when he seems very sure of his position. You can't enter into living-together hoping he will change, you have to be happy with what he's prepared to offer.

I'd be interested to know which bit of "marriage" he objects to, when, by the sound of it, he seems to be ok with 2 people living together under one roof, raising children, doing each other's washing etc etc.

We got married simply for the legal stuff: DH had parental rights to DD, the pensions stuff was easy to nominate each other, the wills were so much easier, life insurance so much easier.

So if either of us died, the other would get a pension and life insurance, DD would get a pension for her education etc etc. I suppose we could have set all this up without being married but it would have been a bit more difficult, just because most finance and legal stuff assumes the legal spouse is the beneficiary and you have to say if they are not.

Even if he won't get married, you need to safeguard against possible ill health, death of either of you and thus provision for the children and surviving partner. If he is ok with agreeing to sort out wills and pensions and life insurance to demonstrate you are a family and the children will be cared for after either of your deaths (if you are not married the family of the parent gets dibs on the kids not the partner unless your will says otherwise) then he just has a genuine fear of marriage ceremonies. If he won't do the monetary planning then I'd wonder what he thinks he wants.

"He has also said that if in the future I still feel the same about marriage, it might happen, but that he won't promise."

I'd take this with a huge dollop of salt tbh. It sounds to me as if he's saying it in the hope that you'll stop going on about marriage.

Yes true. I have to be sure I'm happy with us never being married. I don't think I am.

DS adores him.