Done to death I know, but help me see if I am the one in the wrong - MIL issues

[dana4nyc]

I am very sorry to be doing yet another MIL thread but I really need some guidance here.

There is a long backstory here so I will do my very best to be as detailed as possible and not go on and on.

I moved to the UK 3 years ago after meeting my DH in May of 2007. I am American and we met in the states as he was on a detachement with the RAF. I came to visit him in England twice and his mother was nice as pie during those visits. When I moved over in April 2008 we had to live with them for approx. 1 month before we could move into our RAF accomodation. It was a difficult time as my MIL's father was ill at the time and passed away 4 days after my arrival. This could have contributed to her behavior with me but when it was just me & MIL in the house she would not speak to or look at me but once DH & FIL were home she acted fine with me. This was hard on me and I was quite a mess as I was in a new country with no friends or blood family and I was feeling very uncomfortable in my new surroundings.

Fast forward to now, 3 years later. My MIL & I have managed to have an OK relationship but there have been several things that she has said & done to me over the course of the past 3 years that have hurt me very badly and I have finally lost the plot and we have had the mother of all rows. Here are the things that have been said to me:

1. "All of my friends think you have changed since getting together with dana4nyc, and not for the better" - This was said in front of me & DH only a few days after my arrival in the UK
2. "(DH's name) has never treated me as badly as he has since he has been with you" - This was said only to me while DH was away on another detachement. I was also very heavily pregnant at the time.
3. "You are the reason that (DH's name) was the ONLY one not present at the death of my father" - This was said in front of me & FIL. Side note We left the day before he passed away after DH has said his final goodbyes as the nurses told the family he would not make it through the night. DH did not want to be there when he took his final breath.
4. On 2 separate occasions she has snatched my DD (and yes they were deliberate snatches) out of my arms. One time was at a family wedding in which my DH was not in attendance. The second occasion was at my DD's 1 birthday party. On the second occasion she took DD away from me and immediately gave her to DH. It is important to note that on either occasion DD was not crying or in distress at all. MIL just didn't want me to have her.
5. On the day of DD's 1st birthday party MIL walked into our home and spoke to everyone in the house except for me. She did not speak more than 5 words to me for the entire day.

As this is getting to be a novel, the gist is that after living with being treated this was for far too long I snapped after she left a particulary snarky comment on my Facebook page. I finally stood up for myself by replying to her rather rude comment and deleted her as my friend. This turned into a massive row with her calling the house that night screaming down the phone at me and I saw red. I called her a f&%!? b*!%? and told her to stay away from me and my DD. She is now threatening to take us to court to get custody of DD. I know she is delusional regarding this but I am beyond livid that she would even threaten such a thing. She can hate me all she wants but to threaten me as a mother has made me so angry I can't think straight.

So my question is this - Am I justified in being angry? I feel at this point in time that I do not ever want to see her again nor do I want my DD to see her because I don't feel that I can trust her not to a) Say terrible things about me to DD and b) There is a small part of me that is scared the woman might put DD in a car and just drive off somewhere because she has made it clear she doesn't think I deserve DD. Once I have calmed down and am not so angry anymore I think I might be willing to let DH take DD to see MIL & FIL for a few hours every once in a while but he is not to leave DD alone with them.

There is a bit more detail to the story including an incident where FIL had a go at me and several comments they made regarding my parenting after DD was born but if you have gotten this far I really appreciate it.

I am also pregnant with DC2 and the stress of this situation in wreaking havoc on me emotionally as well as physically.

Please help me see if I am blowing things majorly out of proportion.

Many Thanks

Dana

I agree that you should apologise for swearing at her. But that only. Her comment was snide and unnecessary and as you've pointed out you've been dodging the bullets for a while now. The very fact that she threatened to try and get custody of your daughter shows that she is deranged.

Whatever the unfortunate timing of your arrival, you were a foreigner in a strange land, and her son's wife and should have been treated with kindness and welcomed, if not immediately during all the drama and bereavement, but certainly soon after. On top of that you are pregnant with her grandchild, so her threatening and screaming at you is really inexcusable.

I would have your DH go and talk to her. He needs to step up here and explain what sort of adult behaviour is acceptable from her.

Moving to a new town and getting friends that aren't there friends sounds like an excellent idea.

At the Christening take a friend with when you go to the loo or she will try and get you alone! I'm serious.

As you are going back to USA things will be OK. Just make sure that your DH and you send emails and do phonecalls so that she has nothing to complain about.

ShoutyHamster - The first inital threat came the first night the blow up happened (while we were screaming at each other on the phone). The "sought counsel" text was sent to my husband this past Friday. So the initial threat was prior to the olive branch but the second one was after.

My DH isn't taking it as seriously as me. I don't know if it's because I am a mother and my protective instincts are stronger or it's because he knows that she is delusional but he just laughs and makes light of it which pisses me off even more. He thinks that there is no reason to get all worked up about something that she can't do anything about. I'm not so sure I agree with that.

That's not really the point though is it? How she could even dream of threatening that shows that she's delusional. Try and feel sorry for her if you can.

Your dh is right in that she is delusional and won't get anywhere with it. But that's so not the point. She has shown you such little respect that it's shocking. As others said, the only way to command respect now is to stand fully up to her, you and dh both. Tell the nutter that she will never see her gd again if she carries on with such vileness. That you don't want that, you want your child to have a relationship with her gp. And the new baby.

Without her showing you the minimum respect, there can be no relationship. And so far, she has got the idea that you are going to continue taking her crap for ever more. You should have stood up to her years ago, but you weren't to know that this would go on.

He's right not to take it seriously i.e. she's a delusional old hag

He's not right to ignore it, as she will continue with her campaign of terror until he sticks up for his wife.

I guess he's been dealing with her all his life, and his strategy has been to shrug his shoulders and ignore it (and run away to the RAF and then USA!), but that's not working for you.

He needs to protect you and therefore his kids.

Yes 'fake it until you make it' can work sometimes but with a seriously poisonous person they might just see this as you being weak and submissive and will continue to attack until they get a negative response and you explode. The pressure toxic in-laws can put on your marriage can't be underestimated either. DH and I came to the brink over his folks - he basically left me to deal with them and 'shut down' or acted like a sulky teen around them. I called him on it and told him it was making me lose respect for him. His relationship with them is no better now (probably worse without me facilitating things) and they are currently not speaking to us BUT we are so much happier and solidly together on how we deal with them.

Ok, so to her, the same week she lost her husband she also lost her son to you. And, to all intents, she has lost him and her grandchild as you are all planning to go and live in the sunshine a world away. Her son has changed for the worse from her persepctive because she is no longer his focus of attention, you and his dd are. She is desperate to keep him and to keep dd with her. She will do anything both reasonable or outrageous to hold them close because her Mother Tiger is protecting them from a corrupting influence - you.

It's not fair or logical but somewhere not so deep down your presence in her life is tangled up with her feelings of loss and you are getting the blame. You cannot mend this because even if you were the Madonna herself you would be the whore in her eyes.

One of the problems is she has been allowed to get away with the sniping and bitchy comments up til now so this almost 'ratifies' the comment for her. (Nobody told me I was wrong to call her a bad mother so I must have been right.) Another problem is that she's clever - all her comments have been undermining and unkind but in black and white don't sound too bad. She can blink innocently and say 'but I only said that she should appreciate her family and she called me a b%tch'.

I'd say the only way through this is openness and a united front with you and dh. First sit down with dh and list on paper the behaviour that must change on her part. Then, face to face if possible, sit her down and explain clearly and honestly what you will not accept, why and how it will be from now on. Get dh to do as much of the talking as he can. E.g.

• You have told Dana that she is not a good mother. This undermines her and it is not true. From now on you must not comment on our parenting choices. If you do we will....
• You have told Dana that she has changed me for the worse. I am happy with dana but you are making me unhappy by not accepting her. If you speak to her like that again I will .....
• You have threatened us with court cases. We are prepared to believe that this was in the heat of the moment and not a serious threat. However it has deeply hurt us and we no longer feel that you have our best interests at heart. If you have any serious allegations against us, we will listen to them and try to reassure you. We would also expect and accept your apology. However if you continue to make this kind of comment we will be forced to cut contact.

From now on, dh will bring dd to see you once a month (or whatever). Contact with Dana will only be at joint family events (or whenever). If you break the rules the visits and contact will be cut.

Be calm, fair, undertsanding and as firm and unyielding as it is possible to be.

I'm sorry but I think you over-reacted massively to the fb status.

Dana My MIL has done almosteverthing yours has bar the FB message. Mine weirdly ignores me when DH isnt around too!

I told DH that I hae given up on a relationship with MIL and I no refuse to be alone with her. I also arrage friends to come round and do NOT invit MIL....can you do the same? Arange to go out for coffee with one or two friends?

Good advice Slambang, however i think that it may be too late . MIL, will suddenly claim that she is dying, because of OP and her dh's behaviour and will go to the extent of feigning (sp?) illness if she has to.
MIL is unstable imho and therefore threats will be of no use.

"She actually texted him the other day telling him that her doctor told her to tell both of us to back off from her because the stress we are putting on her is preventing her body from recovering. FFS"

Yeah right. Note that this is by text as well; she cannot even be bothered to hold a verbal conversation.

This is at heart about power and control. She wants absolute over you.
Bossy, manipulative and entitled to boot your MIL is. Not just to say toxic as well. FIL does not sound any better either.

Perfumedlife is correct here by stating "when your dh wants to stand up to her, let him". It is likely that you yourself have fortunately come from such a family where this type of dysfunction is unknown so it is doubly difficult for you to deal with. Being reasonable and or nice to them cuts no ice with toxic people; they see such behaviours as alien to them and weak.

She also wants to have custody of your child!. She probably has not sought such legal advice at all but its a nice stick to beat you with and have you both worried about. Such actions like both the above you mention are typical of toxic manipulative inlaws. Its all designed to keep you and by turn your DH in line. She wants her own way and will stop at nothing to get it.

Your DH and your self need to have and maintain a united front with regards to this woman. Personally I'd cut her out of your lives without a second glance.

Dana - so it's an element of 'divide and conquer'? Do you think there's been a pattern of her getting upset, being unreasonable, and that in the past it's got her her way with your DH/FIL etc. - the focus becomes calming her down, she gets her way and it's then all forgotten?

If so then her refocusing onto your DH to make these threats may be an attempt to continue this pattern of her feelings coming first, her being the person to be pandered to. And he is (unconsciously) playing along. 'Oh, she's REALLY lost it and has said something crazily ridiculous! This just means she's really, really upset. Don't rise to it, she doesn't mean it - she can't mean it because it's a totally ludicrous thing to say - but it does show that she's very upset so we will acknowledge that by saying 'But that's just how she is' and instead of reacting the way we would to someone else threatening us, we'll laugh it off, we'll let her off. By doing this, she is put at the centre, and indulged, and you are asked to be more mature, and understanding. Hmm, no. You and your daughter should come first.

Do you think it would help to show him this? Or to try and get him to think more carefully about how deeply she seems to have ingrained these responses in him? He seems very, very passive in the face of total disrespect for HIS parenting and HIS choice of partner - laughing it off isn't the way to sort this out. Why isn't he outraged at her lack of respect for him as an adult, a father, a husband?

Oh, and also I would really NOT stand for your MIL getting to see your daughter and play happy families without you there. She doesn't get to airbrush you out - she either plays her part within what is now YOUR FAMILY far more than it is hers - with respect for your place as her son's wife and her granddaughter's mother - or she doesn't come at all. Don't make way - that's giving her what she wants, and what she wants is corrosive and divisive.

ConstanceFelicity - I appreciate your honesty but I just wondered if you had read my original post? I'm am not justifying what I said but my reaction was not solely because of the silly FB post. It was years of pent up hurt and frustration that spilled out over a very miniscule comment.

ShoutyHamster - I am definitely going to show him this post but I honestly have no idea if it will make a difference.

I don't want them to play happy families at all without me there but I feel a massive amount of pressure (mainly from myself, some from DH and of course some from MIL) to let them see her. My DH keeps saying to me "they haven't done anything to DD" and "DD is the one that will suffer from not seeing GP's" and even "DD will resent us if we keep them from seeing her". I feel like I have no choice but to eventually give in.

"She actually texted him the other day telling him that her doctor told her to tell both of us to back off from her because the stress we are putting on her is preventing her body from recovering. FFS"

Well, I think I´d take her at her word, & when you go to USA, you can tell her it´s for the good of her health

Your husband needs to get on side & not make excuses for her, though.

That's absolute bullshit.

My paternal grandmother was a lunatic bitch, and from the sounds of it, had quite a lot in common with yours (my mother is a saint - if she'd been my MIL, I would have drowned her in the nearest pond).

In retrospect I would have been much happier if I'd never been made to spend time with her. Even when I was very young I knew she was OTT, didn't like her, and didn't enjoy visiting her.

Hi dana,

re your comment:-

"I don't want them to play happy families at all without me there but I feel a massive amount of pressure (mainly from myself, some from DH and of course some from MIL) to let them see her. My DH keeps saying to me "they haven't done anything to DD" and "DD is the one that will suffer from not seeing GP's" and even "DD will resent us if we keep them from seeing her". I feel like I have no choice but to eventually give in.

The three of you (soon to be 4, congratulations!) come as a complete package. And yes they have done something to your DD by casting such rubbish aspertions on you both as her parents.

DD will not suffer unduly if she does not have much if any of a relationship with her GPs. She will do better surrounded by positive role models rather than people who will suck you dry at every opportunity.

Why should the ILs see their granddaughter if they are prepared to ride roughshod over you both on a regular basis?. You would not tolerate such ill treatment from a friend, relations are truly no different in that regard.

I would ask you this as well. What would such a woman add to your DD's life anyway?. She would likely try and get back at you by using your child as ammunition or trying to poison her mind by manipulation. I would not put such tactics past such a woman. This woman has wanted to take your child away from you by implying she has already sought legal counsel!.

More often than not too, toxic inlaws also turn out to be toxic grandparents.

Do read "Toxic Inlaws" written by Susan Forward; it will help you further.

Ninedragons is dead right.

Another thing to be careful of is what your mil says to your children as they they grow up if this isn't dealt with now. My sis in law stopped her children seeing mil when it transpired that mil bitched about her to her children. She also used to tell my nieces that they were "thick" and "ugly" and told my nephew that he was "too girly for his own good".

I never leave my children alone with mil because I have no idea what she'll say to them.

Yes, I did read your original post (I wouldn't have posted on a thread if I hadn't read the OP) and appreciate that she's a nutter. But for you to swear at her like that was just giving her ammunition- She will always be able to say that her DiL called her a f*ing b**ch.

I'm sorry if I sound unsympathetic, I'm really not. I just think it's better for you to rise above it and have the moral high ground.

100% agree with AttilaTheMeerkat here. You are dd's mum, she has offended you and threatened you, so no mum, no dd. This is a family and she is happy to divide it over contact with herself. Absolutely no way. And what does she bring to the party anyway?

When she grows up and stops flinging accusations and threats around, she may get her family back. Until then, no way.

Yes, you should feel angry. Another MIL unable to behave decently.

You sound like you've been through quite a bit yourself recently. Pregnant with a young child, in a new country and with a husband who is away a lot. I think you've handled it all pretty well. She sounds awful.

The facebook thing is irrelevant, its just the tip of the iceberg really, I know exactly what you mean about stuff like that. I too had a good relationship with my MIL on some levels but in the end she just doesn't operate on the same level. I think in a way, for her, its all a game.

I made a decision around 18 months ago to disconnect from my MIL - emotionally speaking. I just stopped thinking about her at all, in fact her and FIL. I have absolutely no control over what she thinks or says about me. Her behaviour, the things she says and does, bear no relation to what I have done or what I do so there was just no point in banging my head against a wall.

It really is the best thing I have done. It has been so freeing. I have a great relationship with all of my own family and I really put 110% into the relationship with my IL's. They fucked it up again and again (10 years) Eventually you have to take a stand and say - no, enough is enough. You are not going to be the source of stress and conflict in my life.

My advice is to disconnect and leave it to your husband to conduct a relationship with his own family. I don't put any restrictions at all on visits but I make it clear that I'm not willing to visit the IL's house (after a number of huge, loud nasty rows between them all and conducted in front of my kids)Funnily enough, since I took a step back, my husband makes no effort and as a result we rarely see her.

On the rare occassions she does come through, I practice the killing with kindness approach. To be honest, I don't really know how else to be, I can't do the bitch thing and silence and moods just stress me out so I'm just myself.

I've gone through the letter writing, the heart to heart etc etc but in the end, the only honesty was coming from me. Eventually, as hard as it is to get to grips with, you have to realise that some people are just toxic, they will never ever think or act in truthful, honest and decent way. They are always going to look for disharmony and problems and you will never ever get to the root of it.

My MIL always had a toxic relationship with my husband too, he just wasn't aware of it. You really have to ask yourself what kind of a mother she is when she wants to be the source of conflict and stress in her newly married son's life.

Good luck - having been in a similar position to you many times over, I empathise, the stress is extraordinary. The stopping thinking about her takes practice but only a couple of weeks and I was cured.

Constance, we know its better to have the moral highground, the op knows that, but it's done and reaffirming that won't change or help her now.

Although I would have called her far worse and not regretted it.

snotalways, I think your approach is spot on and I agree with it entirely apart from the contact. In your situation I think there was no openly hostile threat to take your children from you. I just couldn't allow my kids to spend time with a grandparent who threatened that. No way.

ConstanceFelicity - Sorry I wasn't meaning to be rude if it came off that way. I really do feel bad for calling her that. It was childish of me and to make matters worse I did it in earshot of my DD. I did try to be the bigger person by sending her a text on Mother's Day. No, it wasn't an earth-shattering attempt on my part, but I did try to dip a toe in the pool to test the water. I now know after the texts she sent to my DH this past Friday that she is not interested in having a relationship with me (I read his texts with my own eyes so I know she said this). I feel stupid now that I even wished her a happy Mother's Day knowing my attempt to build a bridge was all for nothing. She flat out has said she doesn't like me and never has. I still will apologise for calling her what I did but I guess I just don't really see the point knowing it won't make a difference at all.

I would urge you, absolutely, NOT to give in and I think that the act of not giving in could be one of the best moves you ever make to resolve this situation - ironically, for the ultimate good of your MIL's relationship with you all too. Until some kind of boundary is drawn here, nothing will improve. She absolutely shouldn't have access to your child under these circumstances and the best possible thing you could do is make it clear to your DH that you won't be 'giving in' - the onus is now on HER to make amends. It's the only way.

Your DH himself has said that your 'mistake' has possibly been not to stand up to her. (Hmm, he's got no problem with you standing up to her, but doesn't feel like doing it himself...). I would say that in general it sounds as if you've been too nice and accommodating all round - to MIL, to FIL but also your DH. So, naturally, your family 'role' is beginning to be one of accommodation - 'Well Dana won't make a fuss when it comes to it'. Your MIL is stamping all over you and your DH is making the right noises but is essentially refusing to step up and solve it. And you're not happy. Time to draw a boundary big enough and clear enough to leave no one in any doubt that yes, you are kind, yes you are accommodating BUT YOU HAVE YOUR LIMIT - and once that limit is reached, WATCH OUT. Time to redraw the family dynamic and say no, actually - I will NOT be responding to this in the way you all nicely assume that I should to keep you all happy. You've crossed my line - now YOU get yourself back over it. It sounds as if this is the first real 'test' of where your boundaries are within the relationship between you and your DH too, in this regard. It certainly sounds as if he's pretty confident that you're going to follow the 'MIL must, ultimately, be placated' script. But this is YOUR child and YOUR family and YOUR marriage.

I would be making it quite clear to DH, with a firm but steely smile that no, MIL will not be seeing DD until you have a full and frank apology, and a rather serious talk which makes it quite clear that any more nonsense like that, and it'll be the end. Decided by you. And that yes, actually, in your book, threatening to take DD from her parents is really quite harmful to her. MIL's threats treat DD as an object to be won - does DH think that's how a good grandparent should feel? And that you have SERIOUS doubts that DD will benefit from having the kind of grandparents that will try and cause discord with her parents and don't respect their authority. What happens further down the line - DD being whispered to that, well, Mummy isn't very nice to Granny because Mummy wants to take her away to America where DD will never see Granny? That Granny loves her best and doesn't DD agree? Honestly, I wouldn't want a grandmother figure with this kind of form having access to my young child - I would assume that the relationship is likely to involve secrets, manipulation and a desire to be in control. Not the most positive atmosphere. I'd rather no Granny than that!