I know I'm in a toxic relationship, but don't know what to do

[wearynow]

namechanged (although used it before)

Feel exhausted, and know we're in danger of severely f*cking up our children (both under 2 at the moment)

Will outline today as briefly as possible, but it's a fairly typical example.

H went running this morning leaving me with the kids. I knew he was going, and he'd hung the washing up first, and made me breakfast, so he wasn't exactly leaving me in the lurch.

He was at work for the rest of the morning (this was unforseen, but fairly typical).
I asked him if he minded me going out for a run or something later. He said that yes, he "minded", but I should go. (WTF??!!)
I said I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask to get away for an hour later as he'd been running, had been into work, and would be away all tomorrow morning as well (running again).
But he just said it was a "loaded question" asking if he "minded" if I go??!

We both took the 2 DC swimming, but for one reason or another, he ended up in the house before me, which meant I was carrying the 2 DC into the house. On the way, DC1 fell over bang! smack on his face, so I picked him up along with DC2, carried them both to the house, and yelled (yes I guess I did yell, I was in a panic) at H to come and get DC2.

I didn't give a reason, and I did yell, but I just wanted to see to DC1 and not leave DC2 unattended. I guess H didn't know any of this and just heard me yell. Because of this, he ambled to the door... basically to make a point that I shouldn't speak to him (yell at him) like that.

And it was all downhill from there. I was angry at him for trying to make a point and failing to understand that I was just panicking, not thinking about how I spoke to him. He just kept telling me I shouldn't order him around, I was "in a bad mood" etc etc
We ended up shouting at each other.
In front of DC1.

I went upstairs to clean the bathroom, leaving him with the 2 DC. He came and told me he "needed to work". I said that I needed to clean the bathroom, we have 2DC, one of us has to look after them while doing what we need to do, and what did he think I do all week? A few minutes later, they were both screaming, and H was shouting at DC1 for poking DC2 in the eye.

I came down, took DC2, and put him down for a nap. Came downstairs and H was reading the paper. DC1 was (IMO) so obviously beyond tired... but H wasn't doing anything about it (DC1 won't nap in cot any more, so I just take him for a 10 minute walk and he drops off. H knows this). So I said to DC1 that we should go for a walk. It was difficult enough as it was persuading a tired DC1 that he should come, but H then kept interrupting me to ask if UI wanted him to do it... but not offering... just insisting I ask. I said I wasn't going to beg him to do something for his own son, and went out.

When I came back, H was still reading the paper.
I told him that, when I'd asked to do something that morning, that was wrong; when I'd just told him to do something, that was wrong, when I didn't say anything about what I thought needed doing, thyat was wrong... and when I just got on and did it myself, that was wrong, too.

Both DC were asleep, so we could've talked, but he just ignored me.

It basically culminated in my trying to avoid any more conflict by heading out with the DC, but he wouldn't let me, blocked my way, said I shouldn't go in the car, and that we should do things as a family. I didn't want to fall out again in front of DC, so said I'd take them in the pushchair. He said I shouldn't go out, we should talk.
I said I tried earlier and didn't want to do it in front of the DC, I would talk later. He said I should talk now.
Can't remember all the ins and outs of this bit. At one point, I left the house because I was crying and didn't want the DC to see. H yelled out at me that I was irresponsible and walking away from "2 crying babies"

He then went to take the DC out himself (!) but DC2 screamed so much, he brought him home (he's EBF still). He told me in a really reasonable voice that he was leaving DC2 with me, taking DC1 to playpark, and did I want to go with them. ???

God! sorry! long. And so ridiculous. Just needed to write it down as much as anything. Get it out. We don't do this every week or anything. But it's certainly not un-typical....

Is there any hope? I've asked to go to counselling before. He won't. He won't even let me go on my own without a big fight, and I just can't be bothered with it.

I don't think you're in danger of fucking up your DC. Ok it's not ideal but couples fight and argue. It's normal... not ideal but not necessarily severely damaging.

Secondly, having two DC so young is obviously going to be really stressful and really hard work. I remember this stage and it's hell, and really a big strain on your relationship. Both of you desperately want to have your own space, whether it's to go running or read the paper or whatever, but with kids at that age there is hardly any respite. So it gets competitive and both of you feel hard done by.

Are there anything positive about your relationship? Perhaps you need to both acknowledge how hard things are right now, and maybe have a night out together occasionally. Is that a possibility? Or is it far worse than that and you can't stand the sight of each other?

He won't even let me go on my own without a big fight, and I just can't be bothered with it.

He doesnt get to " let " you go to counselling , dont ask him , tell him , and refuse to discuss further . He also doesnt get to stop you from going out , or dictate when your going to talk , and about what . He doesnt own you , married or not , your a grown woman and dont need his permission or aproval .

I suggest you do go to counselling , on your own and explore whats going on , and what your willing to accept and not accept . He sounds fairly controlling and petty , and pretty low level right now ( im not suggesting its not a big deal by the way ) but i wonder , if these ridiculous attempts to control you start to fail , if he will step it up ?

He refuses to hear you , plays ridiculous games with you and sounds fairly shit with the kids , thinks he can dictate whats up for discussion and that he can prevent you from going out . Some might say this could be worked on , im not so sure to be honest.

Theres some threads on here at the moment , ( lundy bancroft ) ect that you might find helpfull . He certainly sounds as though he is emotionally abusive to you , have you thought about ringing womens aid for a chat ?
Sadly you cannot change his behaviour or his attitude and i think it a mistake to try . You can , however decide whats unacceptable and state that clearly and be willing to walk away if it continues .

What do you mean he won't let you go to counselling without a big fight?

thank you for making it through my essay! :)

Yes there are lots of positives.
We do still very obviously and openly (?) love each other. And, most of the time, he's a proactive, practical, loving person, and a great H and dad.

I just get scared when we dissolve into this kind of behaviour. But really appreciate the sense of perspective, thanks :)

And yes, it is tough and exhausting right now.....

Well the father of my children with whom I still live has displayed this behaviour for years, and lots more besides. I used to think it was my fault.
Your husband is abusive.
I hope you have your eyes opened to it sooner rater than later or you really will fuck up your dc's.

You don't ask him if you can do something, you do it.

then if he protests that you go to therapy, or go for a run, what kind of person would that make him?

Thanks dignified. I appreciate all perspectives on this.

I will look at those threads.

He is controlling. He knows this, and I know this.
We are both stubborn. And we are both like a dog witha bone when we argue.
I am really trying to take this away from the DCs, but I can also be quite petty.

We have talked about counselling, and he is just dead set against it. Thinks we should sort things out ourselves.
I've had counselling in the past (for other stuff pre-H), and know how beneficial it can be.

I guess I'm most worried that we are both adding to the "toxic-ness" of this, and that's what'll f*ck the DC up.

That's my fear, flippinpeedoff

Sometimes I feel like a coward for staying with him
Sometimes I feel like it would be the wrong thing to leave him: I made the decision to marry him. It's my bed. I need to work out how to live with it.

When we argue like this, I feel like it's all lost. But then when things are okay, I'm so glad I'm with him.

God! I sound pathetic....

I couldn't even get to the end of your post which sounds very disrespectful, but the reason is I remember too well the sheer politics of getting through a day with my x and your post was like 'the good days' in my relationship. Everthing had to be treated carefully, navigated with skill. It was exhausting and I was worn out.

I think you are existing in a really heightened state of awareness of his criticism. You feel you know what he is thinking, because the thoughts are usually critical. I wouldn't bother with counselling. I'd end the relationship because it's not making you happy, it doesn't sound equal, it sounds exhausting, you fear you may be damaging your children.... anymore reasons!?? you're not obliged to cling on and endure it you know.

I'm glad I got out and was no longer complicit in the double act. My act was the abuser, but I was 'playing my role' by not ending it sooner than I did.

I guess the reason I "ask" him is because, ultimately, I'm their primary carer, he's a workaholic with a demanding job, so under a lot of pressure, and often working even when "at home".

So I'm asking more if it'll fit in with his work and stuff rather than permission.

but this does actually seem to irritate him. Says I don't need to ask permission to do things. Does always tend to "tell" me when he's doing stuff... but then gets annoyed if I just do stuff for myself and he needs to work.

AGGHR! Am irritating myself now, I sound so ridiculous!

I doubt you're going to end this relationship immediately, so next weekend, tell him you'll be going out for a run after he gets back.

Thanks, Valium.
Not surprised you didn't make it to the end. think I was finding the writing a bit too therapeutic! :)

Have to go now, but will be back later to think and re-read. I'm really grateful for all the different views.

This is about power and control.

You married him yes but you were not put here to be his emotional punchbag. Interesting to note as well he does not want to go to counselling (controlling men do not go to counselling as they at heart feel they are doing nothing wrong). I would also suggest counselling for your own self if he won't go (no surprise to me actually that he won't attend any such session).

If he knows he is controlling he is doing nothing to curtail that behaviour. Its too inbuilt within him to change. He likely learnt about control from his own parents; what do you know about his background?.

This is 2011, not the 50s. No its not your bed to lie in it and no you don't have to live with it.

Not all abusive men are horrid all the time; if they were no-one would want to be with them.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

What did you yourself learn about relationships from your parents?

What are you both teaching the children about relationships here?. Is this really an ideal template for them to be learning from?

All these above questions need consideration.

He doesn't sound like he is interested in anything you do or say, except when it inconveniences him, then he throws a wobbly.

I don't think he likes or respects you.

Would anything in his life change if you and the kids vanished? I don't think he really thinks of you as anything other than someone who is around. He certainly doesn't seem interested in a partenrship.

Workaholics are usually controlling and angry and define themselves by their job. If he didn't have lots of work, he'd go out and find some.

It can only get worse.

Normal ?
Its not normal to enjoy a run but deny someone the same. Its not normal to tell people how they feel or deliberateley misunderstand them to put them on the densive .
Its not normal to ignore someome , and its not normal to try to prevent someone from leaving or to not " let " someone arrange counseling for themselves . Its not normal to manipulate the situation by interfering in someones parenting and make her look the bad guy . It happens , but it shouldnt , and its not normal .

Op you say you can be like a dog with a bone , and very stubborn . When ? How ? Is this true or are you simply trying to be heard ? His comment about loaded question sounds like typical gaslighting and you ended up eplaining and justifying yourself when you didnt have to , he was trying to get you on the defensive and it worked .

What do you mean by you can be petty ? Can you give some examples ?
It sounds like youve had a stressfull day , caused mostly by your H , all of that was entireley avoidable , he chose to behave like that and was fully aware of what he was doing . Im sure he doesnt try these tactics on his boss or workmates , so its a behaviour he chooses to engage in.

I would spend some time learning about emotionally abusive tactics , its fairly typical and very very petty once you see it for what it is.

I hope I don't sound like I'm encouraging you to be a doormat when I say this: it sounds like your DH has a problem with authority. It may be a general problem, or it may be specific to you. However you phrase something: ask outright, hint, give the facts, whatever, he resents it. Whatever's caused him to be like this (personality, childhood), you gotta work with him as he is.

My DH works all the hours God sends and then some. I've had days similar to the one you've described and I've had the same sort of "yes I mind but you should go" comments. Basically I've decided that I can bang my head against a brick wall trying to get him to do his fair share of the childcare out of office hours - or I can see what needs doing and get on with it. I am busier than I'd like to be and I don't have the ideal marriage I'd like, but I'm in a real relationship and I'm going to work with what I've got.

(Bear in mind, too, that since you do this all week, you have a better idea what to do with the DCs than he does. You could probably have cleaned the bathroom with them with you if you hadn't been mad about the unfairness of things, couldn't you?)

Yes, it sucks and yes, he has a lot of room for improvement. But he's not your DC. You can tell your DCs what to do and they have to do it. I'm guessing there was no obedience clause in your marriage vows, though. You can try telling him it's "unacceptable." But he'll put his defences straight up on hearing it, cos of what I said before: he won't take it from you.

It's worth repeating that you're at a tough and exhausting stage. Make sure that your DCs see you happy together and loving more than they see this side of things, and they'll come to no harm.

As for me, once I gave up trying to change my DH and accepted him for the hands-off father he is, I concentrated on being the best mother I could be. I remember a scene one weekend soon after my change of heart, when the girls were looking at books together, the baby was napping and I was playing with the marble run with DS. DH passed through on his way from laptop to kettle, saw the picture of domestic bliss :O and started envying us because he was too busy to join in. Now there are times when he actively wants to do stuff with us! Small steps, but in the right direction...

Sorry, I'm writing an essay in response to yours! Last thing: you do need to get a break from the DCs from time to time. If you go to DH and appeal to his ego, saying, "I'm quite worn down and feeling exhausted but I can't see how I can have a regular break from them, just an hour a week would help. Do you have any ideas?" you're more likely to get a positive response.

Valiumsingleton said "I wouldn't bother with counselling. I'd end the relationship because it's not making you happy... "

Seriously? On the basis of the post you would advise ending the relationship? With two tiny children involved is it really not even worth trying to work on improving things? I am amazed.

OP, I will reiterate what I said earlier. This is a really tough time for you both with two under two. You will both need to work at it, but I think there is a good chance things can improve if you do.

thanks so much everyone.

This has really made me think. And also face some quite uncomfortable truths. Some that I knew were there, but had been pushing to the back of my mind.
I am finding this extremely helpful, so I'm really grateful for taking the time to get back to me.

Attila, those questions do really resonate. So I'm going to come back to those. They need some thought. Yes his father was "known" to be a "difficult man. Will take some time and answer them properly.

Miggsie, you're right. From what I've written here, he sounds like an arsehole! However, I do think his life would be shattered if we weren't around... and weirdly, I do think he respects me. Just finds it difficult to see past his own very strong convictions/ obsessions sometimes!
Where I think you've hit the nail bang on the head is
"Workaholics are usually controlling and angry and define themselves by their job. If he didn't have lots of work, he'd go out and find some."

I've only ever taken one day "off" since DC1 was born (ie one day in 2 years) and that was when I had mastitis with DC2. Even then, with me lying in bed with raging fever, he told me he didn't think he could take a day off work the next day... and when he finally did, he spent the day building things and tidying and "doing" things. He just cannot do "nothing" (ie just be with the kids).

....oh dear! loooong again

BUt he wasn't working. He was reading the paper, by the sounds of it.

Okay... Nimpy has just asked the question I was going to ask.

You see, there are some definite bad/ toxic things. And I am worried about them.

But whatever I do now, I've had 2 children. So what I'm trying to work out is this:

Yes, I think we could damage them if we have regular days like today.
Is it more harmful for them to see us together, or for us to live apart? He would, after all, still be their father.

I keep coming back to this.

And anyway, when we're not arguing, I'm so glad we're still together.

But I don't want to inflict days like today on them very often. And it worries me that we're not good at walking away from this kind of thing.

Valium said that as she's lived with an abusive male. As have I.

When you get to the end of an abusive relationship and you see what you did, what you put up with and what you got back for trying to keep a relationship like this going, you realise that a short cut to saving yourself a whole lot of hurt, mental destruction and damage would have been to get out earlier.

The DC are not being harmed at the moment, but that window will close shortly.

What happens when and if OP decides to go back to work when the DC are at school? He won't let her go out if he can possibly avoid it now, what about when she starts earning her own money and making her own decisions? Trust me, this guy is bad now, he will kick off BIG TIME then.

I see the gaslighting already too.

OK let's analyse the child falling over incident. child falls. Child screams. OP calls for H, OK yells. H having heard the distressed cries of his baby, only saunters. he's not even acting in the poor child's best interest in his determination to make OP suffer.

Any NORMAL father/person would hear poor child, hear the yell and come RUNNING to make sure the child is OK.

He's an abusive man, he will get a whole lot worse, and he will actually NEVER get any better. There is no point in trying to reason with him, negotiate with him, or plead with him. Trust me. I just wasted 10 years thinking I could reason with mine.

There is no point whatsoever in pursuing this relationship. The lack of urgency when a child has clearly hurt themselves alone is enough for me.

lostinafrica that's also really interesting. Thanks.

You are right, usually I would clean the bathroom with them both there. I was just trying to make a point!!

Everything you say rings true, and is very helpful.
It's just not simple, is it?

Yes I do tend to try and swallow resentment and justget on with it... I guess I do jsut ave to work out where the line is, and what I do when we cross it

Google Cycle of Abuse OP, you will understand the good days. They are essential to keep you hooked, right where he wants you.

Whatever's caused him to be like this (personality, childhood), you gotta work with him as he is.

She hasnt got to do anything Lost , her husband is controlling and thats a form of abuse , its not ok. There is no " working " with people like this , only rolling over and tip toeing round them to make sure they dont get upset , like she has done today .

You could probably have cleaned the bathroom with them with you if you hadn't been mad about the unfairness of things, couldn't you?)

Im sure she could , but why should she struggle to clean a bathroom with 2 small tired children while he sits on his fat arse reading the paper ? Its not 1920 ffs and he isnt king of the world because hes got a cock between his legs .

Op , theres always going to be people who are stuck in the 1920s and think its normal , or that because they put up with it you should to. If it feels wrong , it is.

I agree.

Why would you give the time of day to someone happy to see a child suffer so he can make a point?

Sick bastard.