I know I'm in a toxic relationship, but don't know what to do

[wearynow]

namechanged (although used it before)

Feel exhausted, and know we're in danger of severely f*cking up our children (both under 2 at the moment)

Will outline today as briefly as possible, but it's a fairly typical example.

H went running this morning leaving me with the kids. I knew he was going, and he'd hung the washing up first, and made me breakfast, so he wasn't exactly leaving me in the lurch.

He was at work for the rest of the morning (this was unforseen, but fairly typical).
I asked him if he minded me going out for a run or something later. He said that yes, he "minded", but I should go. (WTF??!!)
I said I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask to get away for an hour later as he'd been running, had been into work, and would be away all tomorrow morning as well (running again).
But he just said it was a "loaded question" asking if he "minded" if I go??!

We both took the 2 DC swimming, but for one reason or another, he ended up in the house before me, which meant I was carrying the 2 DC into the house. On the way, DC1 fell over bang! smack on his face, so I picked him up along with DC2, carried them both to the house, and yelled (yes I guess I did yell, I was in a panic) at H to come and get DC2.

I didn't give a reason, and I did yell, but I just wanted to see to DC1 and not leave DC2 unattended. I guess H didn't know any of this and just heard me yell. Because of this, he ambled to the door... basically to make a point that I shouldn't speak to him (yell at him) like that.

And it was all downhill from there. I was angry at him for trying to make a point and failing to understand that I was just panicking, not thinking about how I spoke to him. He just kept telling me I shouldn't order him around, I was "in a bad mood" etc etc
We ended up shouting at each other.
In front of DC1.

I went upstairs to clean the bathroom, leaving him with the 2 DC. He came and told me he "needed to work". I said that I needed to clean the bathroom, we have 2DC, one of us has to look after them while doing what we need to do, and what did he think I do all week? A few minutes later, they were both screaming, and H was shouting at DC1 for poking DC2 in the eye.

I came down, took DC2, and put him down for a nap. Came downstairs and H was reading the paper. DC1 was (IMO) so obviously beyond tired... but H wasn't doing anything about it (DC1 won't nap in cot any more, so I just take him for a 10 minute walk and he drops off. H knows this). So I said to DC1 that we should go for a walk. It was difficult enough as it was persuading a tired DC1 that he should come, but H then kept interrupting me to ask if UI wanted him to do it... but not offering... just insisting I ask. I said I wasn't going to beg him to do something for his own son, and went out.

When I came back, H was still reading the paper.
I told him that, when I'd asked to do something that morning, that was wrong; when I'd just told him to do something, that was wrong, when I didn't say anything about what I thought needed doing, thyat was wrong... and when I just got on and did it myself, that was wrong, too.

Both DC were asleep, so we could've talked, but he just ignored me.

It basically culminated in my trying to avoid any more conflict by heading out with the DC, but he wouldn't let me, blocked my way, said I shouldn't go in the car, and that we should do things as a family. I didn't want to fall out again in front of DC, so said I'd take them in the pushchair. He said I shouldn't go out, we should talk.
I said I tried earlier and didn't want to do it in front of the DC, I would talk later. He said I should talk now.
Can't remember all the ins and outs of this bit. At one point, I left the house because I was crying and didn't want the DC to see. H yelled out at me that I was irresponsible and walking away from "2 crying babies"

He then went to take the DC out himself (!) but DC2 screamed so much, he brought him home (he's EBF still). He told me in a really reasonable voice that he was leaving DC2 with me, taking DC1 to playpark, and did I want to go with them. ???

God! sorry! long. And so ridiculous. Just needed to write it down as much as anything. Get it out. We don't do this every week or anything. But it's certainly not un-typical....

Is there any hope? I've asked to go to counselling before. He won't. He won't even let me go on my own without a big fight, and I just can't be bothered with it.

I think that most of us are just at different stages on a track, to be honest. I really really don't think that anger is helpful to those of us at the beginning of it, but understand why it is there.*

But you know, it feels like you are being attacked again when you are posting in a vulnerable frame of mind. No matter how screamingly loud the warning bells ore for you, a little gentleness really does go a long way.

*bingethinker is making a track: years of getting pissed off and rating to oneself in the car on the way to work, followed by a series of attempted life changes in attempt to be living a different life without recognising what it is that's wrong (job change, house move etc), dawning realisation that that this might actually be properly wrong allied to strong feelings of humilation (I'm there now), desire to change things, voracious reading of self-help books and material, attempts to change things....don't know what comes between as not done those stages yet....finishing with bitter divorce and furious anger at all the wasted years.....

If you are on the last stage of the track I think it is quite hard to get your message across to those on stage 2 or 3. I honestly think shouting it louder makes it harder.

I am no expert (and have quite a few relationship problems too!) but what strikes me is that you seem to be reacting against each other hour by hour as the day passes eg. You say you need to do A, he then thinks 'but I wanted to do B', then a flashpoint develops.

I used to do a lot of work at weekends and it was just horrible and made me really grumpy. I always resented anything my DH wanted us to do for the house etc as I could feel it eroding my 'free' time and a ticking clock constantly on my shoulders for when I would have to start work again.

Have you thought about planning the day in advance eg. scheduling in when he will work, allowing a bit of time for you both to go for a run, then some joint family time. Set your needs out at the start of the day then you won't run into problems when it gets to about 4pm, tea and bath are looming but you still have things you want to do.

Would it help for him to go into the office (or maybe a cafe or the library) and work solidly for a few hours, without distractions? If he goes in early then he could have done 5 or 6 hours by early afternoon. Then it would be over with and he could be more relaxed and ready to give you a bit of relief.

This is just a quick one to say thanks for comments, and I am still reading, but am looking after the DC today, so will post again properly tonight.

Atillia, yes I've thought about your questions, and they highlight things about myself as well as H, so will come back to them with more time.

I'm feeling a bit guilty for dragging up what must be very painful stuff for some people, and even getting them involved in bunfights! I'm sorry for that. I do understand that my post must have flagged things for some people. I work in a profession where I 'help' people, and I understand the desperation you feel when you feel someone is not helping themselves as they could/should.

I guess I ought to balance it all a little to make it clear why I am still here and not packing my bags.
Firstly, although one poster was very blunt about it (!), it was just my side of the story. I wrote it when I was upset. My title, even, was fairly emotive. Yes, I must've read the phrase "toxic relationship" somewhere... probably here on MN.
But it was all true. And he had been an arse.

But I guess my worry at the time was more that we are bad together (not that he is all bad), and that it's this that could harm the DC. I don't want us to shout at each other in front of the DC. I want us to be able to walk away from it. As one poster said, we do truly need our heads banging together sometimes!!

And, as I said, I can be very childish at times when we argue. I understand that this may sound like I'm justifying his behaviour now, so maybe I need to post again when I have behaved "badly" so I can examine that a little, and how we react to each other.

Oh dear! this is also long now!
What I should also say is that he did apologise. Well... didn't say "sorry" but explained that he'd planned to work all day (apart from when we went swimming) so got irritated when I said I wanted to run etc and he realised that was a mistake.

He also got up this morning before me with the 2 DCs, got them dressed and made breakfast for me because he was going running all morning. This wasn't a one-off. He does do tis kind o thing.

So I also feel that I don't want to "lessen" the term "abuse" by just taking it onboard, much as I also appreciate that this might also sound like denial. I know some of his behaviour is crap and, yes, controlling. But I don't think he's abusive. Does that sound defensive? I don't mean it to. I'm just trying to examine this
I feel we have problems. I think we can both be childish and sometimes resentful. I think he is obsessive about work. But he is also incredibly protective and supportive of our family. He was crp yesterday. But I guess he's not always like that.

Oh dear! another essay... sorry!

Actually, wearynow, although you are worried that others might think you are denying 'abuse', I think your last post was tremendously sensible. You seem to have woken up this morning able to reflect on yesterday in a calmer frame of mind, as well as recognising that, as bingethinker (another great, calm post!) says, relationships can be about the way two people interact and how both have a responsibility for that - not this knee-jerk woman=innocent victim and man=evil abuser response which MN is so fond of.

Op, the hardest thing to do is to admit that your OH is abusive.

It can take years and years to do that.

Just because you dp does nice things it does not mean he isn't also abusive.

If he didn't do anything nice, ever, then you wouldn't stay would you. Doing nice things keeps you hanging on in there. After all he does these nice things like get up with dc, make you breakfast, how on earth could an abusive man do that? Eh? What a horrible thing to contemplate that the man who was so kind this morning is also abusive. Now you feel bad for posting on here, maybe you were simply angry and your thinking distorted?......

I spent years trying to fix things, trying to stop doing the little things that (d)p said were ruining our relationship, like interrupting him when he was speaking, not listening to him properly etc. It was never enough because I always failed at these, according to him and there would always be loads of other crimes to take their place anyway.

No one wants to admit that are in an abusive relationship, no one.
No one wants to contemplate the enormity of dealing with a relationship that is abusive. It's always easier to say, "but he does nice things and I do have a temper/ am childish, I'm sure I provoke him, we just have to work a couple of things out."
I've been there. For years and years, I've been there. Slowly slowly sinking into the mire that is living with an abuser until I couldn't see where I started and ended anymore.

I also believe that, in my case ,(d)p doesn't realise what he is doing some of the time. I think he does sometimes, but not all the time. We have both normalised the behaviour. It does not mean it is right of course.

I do not for one second expect you to up and leave. Would that it were that simple. But know this. He won't stop and it will damage you and your dc's.

Hi Weary,

I read your original post and, with 2 children under 2 at home, some of it resonated. It just sounded like one of those days where two hugely overtired people were not getting on very well. It is hard to be one's normal friendly self on two hours of sleep and with screaming todlers and babies around.

I think this idea of "abusive", "call women's aid" etc is at best a projection from the perspective of those who have suffered in awful relationships and,at worst, as Freshmint put it "schadenfreude" by some very bitter people. You seem much more self aware than some on here in that you realise that, in general, it takes two to create a really toxic relationship. People on here are making some huge judgements about your husband's response when you yelled at him. Maybe he did not here his child was hurt and genuinely resented being screached at, as you admit to doing.

IMO, sometimes relationships deteriorate into what I would term "point scoring" where you each take pleasure in your own ability to put your partner down and pick at them. That is a horrid vicious cycle and it takes at least one of you to pull back from the brink and remember that you are a partnership and the reasons that you chose to be in it in the first place.

I think counselling would probably be helpful but, on the other hand, just pulling back from the brink, talking together and creating some ground rules for when times are tough would be a sensible first step.

I really feel for you but I think that, given what you have written, toughing it out for a while (at least until you can both get a night's sleep) would seem more sensible than impetuously leaving. To me, you both sound like nice hard working people who genuinely love each other but are, temporarily, in a tough place.

Hi wearynow,

I am very glad that you are considering the DC in all this and that they are a paramount concern of yours.

Any controlling behaviour in whatever form it takes, is abusive behaviour. I think that you have also played a part in getting this relationship the way it is but I would argue his issues regarding control were already there (his parents likely taught him those lessons) and I do not think you have added more to that. He has already stated that he would not go to counselling so what does that tell you about him too?. What you have both tried thus far is not working and so you are going around in circles as a result.

In case anyone is wondering this is what I asked wearynow:-

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

What did you yourself learn about relationships from your parents?

What are you both teaching the children about relationships here?. Is this really an ideal template for them to be learning from?

OP, whilst I think some of the comments on here are quite useful, I really think any relationship that hinders or actively restricts your personal growth is not very healthy.

I do think anyone who wants it has a right to counselling, and does not need to seek permission. Your partner sounds scared stiff that if you go and 'wake up' to what things you're missing from the relationship that you may leave. (ie that may be the bottom line for him). Deep down he may know that the relationship status quo isn't ideal, either. He may lack the confidence or language to discuss it, or he may not be ready to take responsibility for his part in things.

If he realises that your intention is take make your life better and work out what you can do to help yourself be happier, (and this may include how to make your partnership better), then he might feel more secure. I realise this is partly pandering to him, but this seems to be where you are right now, rightly or wrongly.

On a practical level, if he has time for running, then you are entitled to time for yourself too - and that means WHATEVER activity you need for yourself. Balance in all things.

Martyrdom is very, very destructive.

Who on here would honestly claim that their relationship with their partner was an 'ideal template' for their DC to be learning from?! Are we really claiming that relationships are either abusive or ideal? Honestly? Am I the only one who is muddling along from day to day, sometimes getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong? My DS sees some examples of good teamwork and a strong relationship in action; he also sees some examples of tired parents who have too much to do and don't always get it right with him or with each other. I honestly don't think his sky is going to fall in as an adult because of that.

Good grief.

It doesn't sound like a wildly unusual argument for two people trying to negotiate their time around the needs of two very small children. There are issues that need to be addressed.
Firstly, the way you frame things can make all the difference to how somebody responds. Instead of asking permission by way of the 'do you mind' questioning- just tell him what you are doing. It isn't rude. It's straightforward. If you are being reasonable there is no need to ask permission.
You sound resentful of your husband. If you was on your own you would have doubtlessly and seamlessly coped with both cleaning the bathroom and the hurt child. It seems to me you are approaching him in a dependent way because you are not effectively communicating your needs.
Your husband in turn sounds resentful. If the responsibility to financially provide for the family is on him solely he may be feeling overwhelmed in the current climate. He might need to talk to you about this but feel unable to because you are presenting being overstretched.
To move on you both need to block time which is just your own with no childcare. If you both have equal time out away from the family it will allow you to move away from feeling' left' with the children. He will also have time out where he gets some mind space from work/family. It is not unreasonable to have time away. It is healthy.
I don't think your husband sounds abusive but rather you are stuck in a passive/aggressive pattern of communication.
You both sound like you have control issues. He is more overt and it's in response to needy vibes. You are reframing it in a martyr- like fashion and laying on the guilt.You are both angry.
In life,at times, it's more about what you do than what you say. If the arguments keep repeating then address it now and resolve the underlying issues. It might prove uncomfortable but all relationships have to adapt with the push and pull of life. Good luck.

No, I'm more with you CowardlyLion, but if we are going to have a sensible discussion around this then we probably need to lose the heat.

The heat is excusable, we are questioning each others' core beliefs here, on both sides. But it isn't helpful.

Should add that I suspect there is an abusive element to the OP's situation, it sounds more so than mine and I have few remaining doubts about that: but it might be fuelled by poor communication between them of what their needs were, and assumptions made abut what the other's role is, and how they were planning to spend that particular day.

OP i just think trust your instincts ,do you feel supported ,loved and respected ?
Are you free to make your own decisions ?
At the end of the day if you are in an abusive relationship ,you wont be happy,you always feel their is something missing and the bloke always blames you .You make excuses for his behaviour but the cycle continues.

DP was horribly abusive, controlling, living with him was a nightmare. He was jealous, possessive, pushed me around physically.
he has major issues around authority, control, and on top of that has an awful martyr/victim complex.

A lot has happened in the years since we lived together. We don't live together now, and I love him to bits but I am much more aware of what is going on - I dont take responsibility for his bad moods, I tell him the way he feels is nothing to do with me. His behaviour is much better - he hasn't changed that much but he has changed the way he responds to the old triggers...he knows he has to as I just wont accept it any more.

I walked on eggshells for a long time, even in the calm periods - I learned a lot of DV and my responses to it. I had to change too, and learn to stand up for myself, which didn't mean engaging, it meant disengaging (IYKWIM)

It's exhausting at times, but the choice to stay in the relationship is mine - as long as our time (and family time) together is good and positive.

I used to do the "asking" thing too - it confused him. He'd say things like "You could have done it by now" So when I said "I'm going for a shower" and his reply was "Ok, I'll go after that" i felt quite assertive and triumphant.
Sometimes it's easier to present them with a fait accompli - also, it automatically assumes equality and respect, rather than inviting a discussion (or argument), or asking permission.

OP, what I said in my above post was not judging your relationship one way or the other. Only defending both your rights to having time to do what you need to as an individual without being judged or prevented by the other person. If you have equal access to that, you could get counselling (if that's how you want to use the time) and you will both avoid the martyrdom scenario/resentment/etc.

If you get to counselling, it will help you to make your OWN mind up about what's going on, one way or the other, and look at ways to make positive change. It would be nice to imagine you both going, but actually that may remove your freedom to say whatever you want to.

Have some time for yourself before rising to the bait of judging the relationship is all I'm suggesting... as so many others have said on here, small children create huge strains for couples, especially if the communication is mistimed or mismanaged.

I've never been one to shout 'leave him! Phone WA! etc on MN posts, I think it's far too simplistic.

The relationship belongs to you and him, it's up to you or both of you to judge/improve/remove etc.

I think taking in all you have posted -if you were to class your husband's behaviour as abusive then you would also have to consider yours likewise.
We are all responsible for our own behaviour.
You own your feelings.
You own your responses.
Nobody can make us angry- that is something we bring to a situation and we are in charge of how we respond to situations.
You cannot control another person's behaviour but you can control your response to it.
If you give up your essential ownership of your emotions/reactions it is because at some level you are being rewarded whether it be attention/outlet/control.
I think you need to think about what your trade off is in remaining in this behavioural pattern. It probably goes way back.

"NORMAL fathers that work away or long days all week can't WAIT to be with their DC, to make up for the time they have lost in the week."

I think this sentence sums up the unreality posted by the regular abuse spotters. Normal fathers are similar to normal mothers, they are ultimately flawed human beings who make mistakes, behave badly, get tired and irrational and generally fuck up variously and to varying degrees throughout their lives.

Husbands and wives behave badly towards each other at times, in my experience, far more regularly when the kids are very young. Not surprising really when you take into account the lack of sleep, lack of time, never ending workload and well all the usual shit which makes up life as parents of young kids. Its hard relentless work and sometimes you take it out on one another.

The key is communication and planning but the lack of sleep gremlin can always mess up even the best communication and planning.

I find that when the communication breaks down the game playing starts, all the manipulating stuff. God its just so hard sometimes. I'm in the middle of it myself at the moment and I find it helpful just to be reminded that its NORMAL. I'm not perfect and neither is he and we are going to be shit to each other sometimes. That's life.

If only it were as simple as "its all his fault" but it never is. I find that reminding myself to give with love gets me back on track. Sounds stupid and it is I suppose but it changes how I think of things and my husband reacts very well to my love and absolutely awfully to my resentment.

anyway - just wanted to say that it sounds familiar and not just in my own life but in mostly every couple I know well who have small children.

None of us has any real idea of what normal is. We know what we have experienced first hand and a little bit of what we read about and see in the relationships around us. Unless of course we have done extensive research are relationship counsellors, have written books etc.
I think people put up with a lot of shit because it is 'normal'
Does "normal" whatever that means, make it acceptable? If , snotalways you consider the OP's relationship issues to be normal then I would say this "normal" is simply not acceptable.
The more important question is is this relationship acceptable to you?
Not whether it is normal.
Does it make you happy, do you feel safe, loved and respected?
Do you feel anxious, belittled, ignored and scared?
Those are the questions you need to ask.

I lived in a "toxic" relationship.

I am not going to say anything more than I thought it was normal.

Only now I'm out of it do I realise that it wasn't.

Normal means different things to different people at different times.

You will talk to someone differently when you're tired, when you're cuddling at the end of the day, when you are in the middle of splitting up.

Normal isn't really a useful word to use.

thanks again for all this

I have spent today thinking about this a lot.
I have had to examine my behaviour and reactions as well as H's. And it wasn't always easy (or pretty!)

What this has made me realise is that there is a point in going to counselling on my own!
There are certain patterns of behaviour I feel we have both fallen into. I am not blameless in this.

So I feel counselling could help me examine my behaviour, but also decide what is acceptable from H.

It's made me realise that I don't need to "ask permission", even if I think I'm doing it to be considerate. It struck me earlier that I could say (for example)

"I'm thinking of going for a run later, are you ok to look after the DCs" or whatever...

I wrote some random thoughts down today as they occurred to me, about my parents, his parents, how I react to things. But it's looooooong! But it helped me to write it, and I'll use it as a basis for counselling.

I have found all perspectives on this really helpful. All of them. So thanks for indulging (?!) me. And again, apologies for any painful thoughts /memories I've dredged up in people

Thanks for the update wearynow - good luck with everything - I hope you find the counselling useful.

Thing is, we all see your relationship from our own perspective. This could go either way.

This H could be OK, just stressed, sleep deprived or whatever, or he could use this to ramp it all up and control you, your life and your DC.

This is the cross roads, you have to set clear boundaries, now is the time to do that.

I think your demeanour IS too apologetic and permission seeking, it is too passive, it may be that asserting yourself gets you over this and your resulting frustration could be eradicated.

BUT, I would hope that this exercise has tuned your brain into looking carefully at the roles you both play and to make sure that you are not being unfairly treated or abused and that your children are not in a family set up that could develop to be harmful.

Keep your eyes open, keep talking and keep those boundaries tight. It's worth a try. Any more sauntering when the child is crying though and all bets are off, when a H uses a child as ammunition, it's time to call it a day.

Wishing you well op.I think doing a bit of fine tuning re ur self esteem and assertiveness is a great idea .Helps you see if ur respected or taken for granted in ur relationship.Dont be surprised if he gets a bit of a shock with the revamped you ,but stick with it ,some people call it a healthy selfish because you learn to put yourself first ,seems strange if youre not used to doin that but you just keep practising.To others ,the thought of putting themselves first is just the natural order of things .Just think of the counselling as coaching ,it changed my life.

Weary, I never agree with Larry, but I completely agree with Larry. You're both exhausted and put upon and frazzled, and your uglier sides are coming out.

Do go to counselling on your own, it's ridiculous that he'd try and stop you doing that. But apart from that - just hang in there, keep talking to one another, recognise that this is going to be a really hard time for you both, and try and remind each other that you appreciate the work one another does.

I read something once that said, don't call time on a marriage until the eldest child is five. Obviously that would be dangerous advice if there were actual obvious abuse in the picture, but in your case, I think it's maybe applicable. Your sons are SO young, and you're both SO busy.