I know I'm in a toxic relationship, but don't know what to do

[wearynow]

namechanged (although used it before)

Feel exhausted, and know we're in danger of severely f*cking up our children (both under 2 at the moment)

Will outline today as briefly as possible, but it's a fairly typical example.

H went running this morning leaving me with the kids. I knew he was going, and he'd hung the washing up first, and made me breakfast, so he wasn't exactly leaving me in the lurch.

He was at work for the rest of the morning (this was unforseen, but fairly typical).
I asked him if he minded me going out for a run or something later. He said that yes, he "minded", but I should go. (WTF??!!)
I said I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask to get away for an hour later as he'd been running, had been into work, and would be away all tomorrow morning as well (running again).
But he just said it was a "loaded question" asking if he "minded" if I go??!

We both took the 2 DC swimming, but for one reason or another, he ended up in the house before me, which meant I was carrying the 2 DC into the house. On the way, DC1 fell over bang! smack on his face, so I picked him up along with DC2, carried them both to the house, and yelled (yes I guess I did yell, I was in a panic) at H to come and get DC2.

I didn't give a reason, and I did yell, but I just wanted to see to DC1 and not leave DC2 unattended. I guess H didn't know any of this and just heard me yell. Because of this, he ambled to the door... basically to make a point that I shouldn't speak to him (yell at him) like that.

And it was all downhill from there. I was angry at him for trying to make a point and failing to understand that I was just panicking, not thinking about how I spoke to him. He just kept telling me I shouldn't order him around, I was "in a bad mood" etc etc
We ended up shouting at each other.
In front of DC1.

I went upstairs to clean the bathroom, leaving him with the 2 DC. He came and told me he "needed to work". I said that I needed to clean the bathroom, we have 2DC, one of us has to look after them while doing what we need to do, and what did he think I do all week? A few minutes later, they were both screaming, and H was shouting at DC1 for poking DC2 in the eye.

I came down, took DC2, and put him down for a nap. Came downstairs and H was reading the paper. DC1 was (IMO) so obviously beyond tired... but H wasn't doing anything about it (DC1 won't nap in cot any more, so I just take him for a 10 minute walk and he drops off. H knows this). So I said to DC1 that we should go for a walk. It was difficult enough as it was persuading a tired DC1 that he should come, but H then kept interrupting me to ask if UI wanted him to do it... but not offering... just insisting I ask. I said I wasn't going to beg him to do something for his own son, and went out.

When I came back, H was still reading the paper.
I told him that, when I'd asked to do something that morning, that was wrong; when I'd just told him to do something, that was wrong, when I didn't say anything about what I thought needed doing, thyat was wrong... and when I just got on and did it myself, that was wrong, too.

Both DC were asleep, so we could've talked, but he just ignored me.

It basically culminated in my trying to avoid any more conflict by heading out with the DC, but he wouldn't let me, blocked my way, said I shouldn't go in the car, and that we should do things as a family. I didn't want to fall out again in front of DC, so said I'd take them in the pushchair. He said I shouldn't go out, we should talk.
I said I tried earlier and didn't want to do it in front of the DC, I would talk later. He said I should talk now.
Can't remember all the ins and outs of this bit. At one point, I left the house because I was crying and didn't want the DC to see. H yelled out at me that I was irresponsible and walking away from "2 crying babies"

He then went to take the DC out himself (!) but DC2 screamed so much, he brought him home (he's EBF still). He told me in a really reasonable voice that he was leaving DC2 with me, taking DC1 to playpark, and did I want to go with them. ???

God! sorry! long. And so ridiculous. Just needed to write it down as much as anything. Get it out. We don't do this every week or anything. But it's certainly not un-typical....

Is there any hope? I've asked to go to counselling before. He won't. He won't even let me go on my own without a big fight, and I just can't be bothered with it.

clam... yes he was reading the paper.

urgh! yes... that was bloody crap of him

and I was just about to write about how he does do an awful lot towards "the family" in other ways...

(and he does!)

but I guess that's not the point. That's not what I'm writing about.
It's how we deal with things together.

Yes, the DCs see a lot of love (I think/ hope), but I don't want them to see this again.

Oh ALL the battered women on here start with Oh but he's a great dad.

Not if he treats the DC mother this way he isn't.

You CAN'T deal with things together with someone like this. Believe me, you can't. It' s not in his interests for you to have a life, for you to be happy, fulfilled, or content. Your opinion is not valid, you don't have a choice.

He works, you stay and do your job, or you'll never hear the end of it.

NORMAL fathers that work away or long days all week can't WAIT to be with their DC, to make up for the time they have lost in the week.

Your H is not normal, he is abusive.

Check out the book 'Why Does He Do That?' by Lundy Bancroft.

erm no, it was not bloody crap of him, it was cruel and neglect. just to score a point off you. Chilling.

okay... thanks again dignified, and thanks, LittleMiss. All helping me think.

He does say he hadn't heard DC1 fall over (and scream and cry.... hmmmm)
but I guess I have to take his word on that, or that really leaves me nowhere!

The paper thing: he says he was going to do some work, but couldn't cos I'd left the kids with him, so he read the paper

er... yeah!
guess that sounds a bit crap when you write it down, too... but I think in his head, that's how it was, and it was logical!

Okay, this is making my head spin a bit now.
Am going to have a think and read Atilla's questions, bexause I remember thinking they rang a bit true, and come back later

(also DC2 just stirring... hohum....)

Stating he had to work then sat idlly reading the paper , ignoring a small tired child was an attempt to piss you off , and it did. You didnt react , so he carried on being ridiculous , butting in with your dc , not letting you leave , until you DID react , then guess what he was all calm while you were in tears. This is a well known tactic , and im wondering how often he induldges himself with it without you noticing.

It occurs in stroppy teens and we usually spot it straight away , deliberate attempts to wind us up , but its not expected in an adult man , but its exactly the same . Basicly op , it sounds like hes spent the bulk of the day trying to piss you off , ( to the depriment of your dcs ) and the minuite you quite rightly get upset hes mr reasonable.

"He does say he hadn't heard DC1 fall over (and scream and cry.... hmmmm)"

Not possible. he heard you call out didn't he?

"but I guess I have to take his word on that, or that really leaves me nowhere!"

NO, it leaves you with the cold hard fact that the evidence suggests he DID hear your DC fall and DID hear you call for help and he DIDN'T come running.

Today is the day you realise what you are married to.

Why was he reading the paper and ignoring the kids , one who was obviously tired ? That isnt ok .

What might be usefull to you is to stick to facts , not opinions or explanations of what he might have thought , just simple facts . Keep emotions out of it if you can .

Ie ,
He went out for a run but made you feel awkward doing the same .
Your son hurt himself and your H claims not to have heard him.
He told you you were in a bad mood and you were ordering him around.
He told you he needed to work then promptly read the paper causing you to stop what you were doing.
He ignored your tired little child.
He then ignored you when you tried to talk .
He stopped you from going out
He insisted on talking despite the fact you didnt want to .
He tried to make you feel guilty for going out .
He shouted at you about leaving the kids .

It doesnt matter what he might have thought , might have not heard , this is what happened . Start looking at his actions , not his words . Hes upset you and hes unnecesarily upset the kids too .

You know OP my (d)p has done the deliberately sauntering thing when I've needed him to come quickly. Once I was with all 6 kids, I didn't have my house key and we'd come back from somewhere, tired and hungry.

He was in the house so I called him on his mobile, told him we were locked out, it was cold, one dc really needed the loo. He took 5, yes 5 minutes to unlock the door and was FURIOUS with ME because I was angry with him for leaving us all outside.
It was about punishing me for forgetting my key. If I had done the same to him he would have probably broken down the door.

Controlling men usually like to be the focus of the familys attention and will often seek out ways to acheive this while outwardly apearing to be reasonable . They do it by arguing , being provocative , being lazy so you have to nag them , being ill , tired , spoiling nice days out , " misplacing " something important to you claiming to be helpfull , ignoring children ect ect , either way , they often ensure the focus is on them without you even realising .

okay.. this has been very thought provoking and helpful. Thanks so much for taking time to write to me.
Have also just re-read the post from the last time I used this name, and... well.. it's pretty similar! I even talk about wanting to slap myself there.
So I think I really do need to take a bit of a long hard look at myself and what I want/ expect, and what I'm going to do /not do, and what I'm willing to "put up with".

What I need to work out is whether I'm actually prepared to do anything, or whether I'm going to be back here in another couple of years saying the same thing!
And if I'm not going to do anything abot it, why not.

When I do think that we're going to damage the DCs by staying together, and imagine splitting up, I know that he would/ will make it all as difficult as possible. Both emotionally and financially. And that does scare me.
But that is not a reason to stay with someone!

I do think it's valid to try and work at it, if it's not going to damage the DC.

That is actually what I have to think of most.

What I have to try and work out is how much of this is a real problem, and how much is me reacting.
I'm very emotionally driven. I do react.

dignified, when you write it as facts like that, that is tough to look at.

I'm finding this quite tricky to face up to, even though I'm spouting a lot. I know I'm being very self-indulgent. But some of this is quite uncomfortable for me.

All of it is helpful, though, so thanks :)

I know nothing about the 'abusive' side but I just wanted to say how hard it is to have two so close in age. My two DSs are 20 months apart - now 3 and 17 months old and honestly? My relationship with DH has only got back to even keel in the last month or so (in that I feel like we have the 'old' relationship back). The first year of DS2's life was just hell. We had a brilliant day as a family today and it felt so nice but it's been a long time coming... My neighbour has two as well - her DD1 is 2.7 and DD2 is 6 months old and she is having a tough time with her DH as well. Every time I talk to her, one thought comes to me, which is what someone once said on MN that no couple should be allowed to be divorced in the first year of their child's life and that is so, so true. Take care.

tbh from the first post, it sounds like you both want your heads bashing together :)

you are both acting daft

"At one point, I left the house because I was crying and didn't want the DC to see. H yelled out at me that I was irresponsible and walking away from "2 crying babies""

This was the bit that really got to me. You were not "walking away from" 2 crying babies, you were leaving them WITH THEIR DAD in order not to upset them, after HE had got them (and you) into this upset state by getting at you and even deliberately blocking your way to stop you going out (which also made me shudder a bit).

It seems like he knows just what buttons to press to deliberately trigger all your guilt and "bad mother" feelings, and to manipulate you back into your place - even though he should be just as capable as you of looking after them when they are upset, and even though he was largely responsible for getting them upset in the first place... but he knows how to put all the bad feelings and all the blame onto you.

thanks :)
yes, it is tough sometimes, isn't it?
and I'm not getting any sleep

Pressures from all over the place.
I know sometimes H feels like he doesn't get a break, what with work and home and all that comes with it.
The competitive resentment comment was very true, too....

Probably right, orangeeyebrows :)
I guess that's why it's helpful hearing from everyone, even if they tell me to just get over myself
(not saying that's what you're saying....)

When it's your life, it's difficult to step back from it sometimes!

You are NOT being sef indulgent. You are questioning this behaviour and deciding what to do about it based on whether it's going to harm the kids.

It will. But not before it's totally destroyed you, so much that you can't get out perhaps.

None of this has anything to do with having kids under 2.

All of this is a real problem, you have every right to react. Your reactions are what will save you and your DC.

Stop making excuses for him, please. Stop attributing HIS meanness, cruelty and abuse to you and over sensitivity. Your instinct is screaming at you. PLEASE listen.

Call Woman's Aid. Talk to them about what you have described here, and ask THEM what they think?

Go and get legal advice, WA can help you with this too. At the top of this thread is a webguide, please click on it and talk to a few people. Trained people, specialised people and listen to their opinion.

Yes MyNameIs
You're right. He was pressing all the right buttons.
Thing is, I know I do this too.

This is why we have to sort it out somehow or other

(and it's why I'm now trying to "walk away" from arguments when the DC are there...)

In your shoes op i would read everything you can about controlling tactics and emotionally abusive behaviours , theres some brilliant links on here and some fab books .You can then recognise it when its occuring and that gives you back some control instead of being at his mercy , as understandably your reaction to it is probably emotional .

Also it might be helpfull to keep some sort of journal , either on paper or on here , again , sticking to the facts of what happened . This can help you to not reason it away or blame yourself or excuse him . I did this and found it very helpfull as i was the master excuse maker on his behalf . I also found it helpfull to write down how it made me feel at the time .

If you feel you want to work at it , then do , i felt the same and exhausted it , i didnt want to be wrong and regret it later , but do bear in mind , you can only work on you , not him .

Thanks, LittleMiss.
I would feel a bit silly talking to WA (I don't mean that to belittle yor advice... just that I don't think this is serious enough?)
I will have to look them up and see what they say (I guess they have a website or something?).
I don't really know much about them, but assume they're for women in danger. I don't feel in danger. Just unhappy.

I'm only writing all that to show I do take your advice seriously, but probably won't do it immediately. I really have a bit of head sorting to do here....

That's a good idea, thanks dignified.
I've tried "ranting" into a diary before, to get it out of my system, but then I think it all gets lost in the emotion.

He is abusive. You are not convinced of it yet. Please, please, please do as dignified suggests, research, check and verify.

There are a million sites to help describe abusive behaviour, if ANY of them ring true, you need to be honest with yourself. You need to ascertain the risk you are in, and you need to act accordingly.

You have as much right to call WA as I would have. If you are uncomfortable calling them now, that's OK, when you have finished your research, you can call them for advice if you need it. check them out here They can help you from a family perspective to make sure you protect yourself and your DC first and foremost.

If this is abuse, it will not go away, it will only intensify.

You have had 2dc in a short period of time. how long have you been together? was the courtship equally fast paced? What is the age difference between you and him?

Theyre not just for women in danger , you can call them anytime just to chat about the emotional side of things , and they take it seriously . Its highly unlikeley your going to wake up one day and declare it over , we all wish we had done that but in reality it takes time . Too much time .

I swung from declaring him an abuser to telling myself it wasnt that bad . My freinds and family were happy to go along with that , offering excuses for him and assuring me he didnt mean it . I surrounded myself with freinds who had shit husbands so he didnt seem too bad in comparison. Even the times i knew he was being abusive i would make excuses for him .

The main thing , i never felt JUSTIFIED in giving him the boot , it didnt seem quite bad enough , and more than anything , i didnt want to be wrong . What would it mean to have married the wrong person and had children with him ? I avoided that thought at all costs to my depriment .
The daft thing is , i didnt have to justify it , it didnt have to be bad enough , i just wasnt happy with him , that was enough on its own.

Cognitice disconance at its finest !

Make sure the diary is in a very safe place OP!

It sounds as though you were both point-scoring against each other, both thinking the other one wasn't doing their part, both screeching at each other and being unreasonable in your own ways ("I had to clean the bathroom" - what? Right then?)

Actually it sounds as though you both don't really like each other at the moment and there is a lot of competitive tiredness and busyness and doingeverythingness going on.

I don't know if it is temporary insanity because you have 2 kids under two and that is bloody hard work or if it is fatal.

But I suggest you find out and start being nicer to each other.