I know I'm in a toxic relationship, but don't know what to do

[wearynow]

namechanged (although used it before)

Feel exhausted, and know we're in danger of severely f*cking up our children (both under 2 at the moment)

Will outline today as briefly as possible, but it's a fairly typical example.

H went running this morning leaving me with the kids. I knew he was going, and he'd hung the washing up first, and made me breakfast, so he wasn't exactly leaving me in the lurch.

He was at work for the rest of the morning (this was unforseen, but fairly typical).
I asked him if he minded me going out for a run or something later. He said that yes, he "minded", but I should go. (WTF??!!)
I said I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask to get away for an hour later as he'd been running, had been into work, and would be away all tomorrow morning as well (running again).
But he just said it was a "loaded question" asking if he "minded" if I go??!

We both took the 2 DC swimming, but for one reason or another, he ended up in the house before me, which meant I was carrying the 2 DC into the house. On the way, DC1 fell over bang! smack on his face, so I picked him up along with DC2, carried them both to the house, and yelled (yes I guess I did yell, I was in a panic) at H to come and get DC2.

I didn't give a reason, and I did yell, but I just wanted to see to DC1 and not leave DC2 unattended. I guess H didn't know any of this and just heard me yell. Because of this, he ambled to the door... basically to make a point that I shouldn't speak to him (yell at him) like that.

And it was all downhill from there. I was angry at him for trying to make a point and failing to understand that I was just panicking, not thinking about how I spoke to him. He just kept telling me I shouldn't order him around, I was "in a bad mood" etc etc
We ended up shouting at each other.
In front of DC1.

I went upstairs to clean the bathroom, leaving him with the 2 DC. He came and told me he "needed to work". I said that I needed to clean the bathroom, we have 2DC, one of us has to look after them while doing what we need to do, and what did he think I do all week? A few minutes later, they were both screaming, and H was shouting at DC1 for poking DC2 in the eye.

I came down, took DC2, and put him down for a nap. Came downstairs and H was reading the paper. DC1 was (IMO) so obviously beyond tired... but H wasn't doing anything about it (DC1 won't nap in cot any more, so I just take him for a 10 minute walk and he drops off. H knows this). So I said to DC1 that we should go for a walk. It was difficult enough as it was persuading a tired DC1 that he should come, but H then kept interrupting me to ask if UI wanted him to do it... but not offering... just insisting I ask. I said I wasn't going to beg him to do something for his own son, and went out.

When I came back, H was still reading the paper.
I told him that, when I'd asked to do something that morning, that was wrong; when I'd just told him to do something, that was wrong, when I didn't say anything about what I thought needed doing, thyat was wrong... and when I just got on and did it myself, that was wrong, too.

Both DC were asleep, so we could've talked, but he just ignored me.

It basically culminated in my trying to avoid any more conflict by heading out with the DC, but he wouldn't let me, blocked my way, said I shouldn't go in the car, and that we should do things as a family. I didn't want to fall out again in front of DC, so said I'd take them in the pushchair. He said I shouldn't go out, we should talk.
I said I tried earlier and didn't want to do it in front of the DC, I would talk later. He said I should talk now.
Can't remember all the ins and outs of this bit. At one point, I left the house because I was crying and didn't want the DC to see. H yelled out at me that I was irresponsible and walking away from "2 crying babies"

He then went to take the DC out himself (!) but DC2 screamed so much, he brought him home (he's EBF still). He told me in a really reasonable voice that he was leaving DC2 with me, taking DC1 to playpark, and did I want to go with them. ???

God! sorry! long. And so ridiculous. Just needed to write it down as much as anything. Get it out. We don't do this every week or anything. But it's certainly not un-typical....

Is there any hope? I've asked to go to counselling before. He won't. He won't even let me go on my own without a big fight, and I just can't be bothered with it.

EVERYBODY goes through stages of not liking their partner when they have young kids. It is a products of tiredness and feeling overwhelmed whether it is because you are feeding and doing the washing or he is getting all huntergathery and the finances are on his shoulders or whatever.

You need to talk when you are in a good stage. Not when you are screeching at each other.

I must admit, it's one of the things I do find slightly disturbing about MN: this enthusiasm for identifying relationships as abusive. All this talk of gaslighting and Lundy Bancroft and reading things on the internet: even if the OP hadn't read enough MN to describe her relationship as 'toxic' in the thread title, you can bet everyone wants to make damn sure she describes it as such by the end.

It seems to be MN's raison d'etre sometimes

Are all relationships either hearts and flowers perfect or abusive? Is there no such thing as grumpy, knackered people not being very thoughtful of each other but still having something worth working on?

I think asking someone who calls people loonys and nutters whats normal was probably a mistake.

You are completely idiotic little miss.
What is all this about the 50s? I wasn't born then. Why don't you read the OP's latest post.

Or do you know her situation so much better than her?

Husband buggered off out running (having done a wee bit to help but not 50/50)

Then pissed off into work unexpectedly (so any hopes for family time that the OP had were trashed)

DH "minded" that the OP would go for a run (in other words he wasn't giving her permission and she would be disobeying him if she went)

They took the kids swimming and he swanned into the house first, leaving the OP to carry two kids and deal with them by herself

When one of the children fell over and smacked their face, she called her husband, who had left her to deal with 2 small children, to help and he couldn't be arsed and sauntered out after a while when it suited him.

Shall I continue???

I have read the thread.

Obviously there are two sides to every story. But any man who would deliberately ignore his own child crying in pain to point score against his wife is an abuser. End of.

oh do trot off freshmint, who the hell are you to call anyone a nutter?

Calling it abuse cos it makes them feel good? WTF?

I call you TROLL, actually freshmint, because what you are saying is rude, aggressive and insulting, needlessly so.

"The H did not know a child had fallen over, just heard her yelling." bollocks.

Even the OP said that was wrong. you hear your child crying, you shift. According to the OP, there is no way he couldn't have heard, and even when he did, he didn't hurry himself.

This is the hardest sort of abuse/toxic relationship to identify and escape from LMHF

It's insidious, and it's hard to call because it's all wrapped up in a sheen of reasonableness.

I wouldnt bother trying to explain , some people think it normal for a husband to not LET his wife go for counselling , or not let her leave the house .

And yet again, I ask, how do we know that the husband deliberately ignored the crying child? All we have is the OP's subjective account of what happened.

yes of course
leave the fucker

"I wouldnt bother trying to explain , some people think it normal for a husband to not LET his wife go for counselling , or not let her leave the house ."

No, I don't think it's normal to ASK if you can go to counselling or if you can leave the house. Just do it.

I would do the counselling,helps ur perspective .My kids were 15mths apart and i bf them both.You need support ,team work from ur H to make it work.Mine was always just popping out for a bit .He probably did feel I was always asking him for help ,he probably was stressed .We had 2 kids under 2 ,you are stressed ,its constant ,full on .Trust your instinct and simplify your life as much as you can.Ask for outside help if you can ,friends &family.Dont try and be a hero ,nobody gives u a medal for a clear sink ,its just a bonus some days .
If you dont feel ur working as an equal team ,if u dont feel respected ,if u feel controlled then discuss all of this with a counsellor x

(she asked if they could go and he said he didn't want to cowardly, but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good witchfest, of course she could go on her own)

This is nasty shit you lot , dont start picking apart the op.
If youve got issues with whats classed as abusive and whats not take it up with womens aid and all the other proffesionals whove done years of research .

So it's Ok that when she wanted to go out, to get away from a situation that was doing her head in, that was not good for either of them, he refused to let her leave?

It's OK that he wouldn't let her leave, blocked her way and wouldn't let her use the car?

Why do you think she asked in the first place cowardly ?

It is not ok to block somebody's way when they want to leave the house (although is it possible he thought you were a danger to yourself in the car, OP?).

It is not ok to saunter to the scene when you can hear your kid's been hurt.

It's not great to say you're neglecting your babies because you've left them in the house with their dad, either!

But, really, to take these incidents and conclude that the OP must get out for the sake of her health, safety, self-belief or whatever, is not ok either. Doesn't it assume that she is rather weak if she has to escape from this?

Went to bed a lot earlier than you, OP, (in different time zone!) so missed the excitement. Just wanted to add a couple more things. Firstly, my DH used to be hopeless at offering to help or getting on and doing seomthing with the kids, too. It's very annoying! He's better at it now, since he had to spend seven months as a single dad while I was away from home sick.

The other thing is that I'm not stuck in the 1920s and I'm not a put-upon little woman. I am hugely grateful for the fact that it is my CHOICE to stay in this relationship and try to make it work. That makes it easier to find the motivation to keep working at it on the bad days! It is also my CHOICE to stay at home and bring up the DCs so that DH can focus (almost exclusively ) on work. (I realise I am very fortunate that money is not an issue.) It is my choice to accept the status quo and not "demand my rights." Although I used to go on at him to pull his weight around the home, I got a change of perspective. If going back to the old-school way of being a family until the DCs are in school is what it takes to get my marriage back on track and have a happy family, then is that SUCH a bad thing? It's not what I imagined, but so what? But it was a CHOICE. Quite different from having that lifestyle forced on you.

(In any case, it's not that simple, is it? My DH helps out from time to time, so does yours.)

It is interesting, and I'm at the stage of realising that all of these patterns exist in my own life. At the same time I think the process of realisation can be a slow one, and maybe it has to be? I also have a slight resistance to labels: hey, we're two people who have fallen into an unhealthy pattern of interaction, I have helped get us there too.....maybe people need to learn their own lessons to an extent? I mean, it's easy to see the patterns with hindsight, and for all those of you who have gone through the whole process of realisation-try to change-counselling-try to change- fed up-left it seems inevitable and you wish that you could have turned the clock back and got out.....at every stage of this, with the information you had available to you at the time would you have done differently?

Whatever. I think that those who are further ahead are on a bit of a mission and good for you ladies, but those of us just getting to grips with a situation like this probably need gentler handling. I also recognise that there may be respondents here who are hoping to deny their own situation because fuck, that's a big long difficult road to go down.

Where am I with it? Well, hey, I was an abused child and so was my husband, but he had it ten times worse than I did. My hatred of conflict has led me to be very passive at home and that has allowed his insecure need for control to escalate. The line was crossed for me last October (not a physical line), he has refused to talk about it, and I'm trying to work it all out. I have just ordered the Lundy Bancroft book. I expect to read it with much sadness, but damn it without feeling like I am a victim or a sodding "codependent". I think we are two damaged people who are both capable of behaving differently but changing the habits of 18 years of interaction will be like turning around a supertanker.

I am picking up the harness and giving that tanker a bit of a wry old look right now.

I haven't time for counselling, not without giving up other things that I value, and maybe I'll need some support. I'll need to set a time limit, I guess, or a series of thresholds after which the decision to leave becomes inevitable.

Wish me luck...and OP sorry this has turned into a hijack but I wish you luck too.

wearynow

Your H does have a problem with authority - yours. Bet you a crisp £5 note he does not act or speak to others in the ways that he does with you. He's reserving all this for you. Any further attempts on your part to try and work with him will ultimately end in failure. This is because he at heart thinks he is doing nothing wrong. He has not shown you any real degree of remorse for his actions either.

Have you given the questions I posed further thought?.

sorry, that last was not a reply to lostinafrica! crossposting.... :)

Love your name, bingethinker! And love the way you're avoiding labels in your situation. Sounds tough - good luck with it.

Ta.

Part of me wonders if I will be in here in a couple of years, posting "leave the fucker!" to new posters wondering if their relationship is quite normal....can't help but smile, somewhat ruefully.

(If I was speaking these words I'd be laughing, this not a dig at anyone)

Look those of us that have suffered or are still suffering at the hands of an abusive partner have taken years to either get out or realise that we need to get out. For us this OP screams out abuse.
I didn't even need to read to the end of the op, I did, but it was like reading a script of my relationship before I understood what he was doing.

It's completely bloody irrelevant that we have only heard the Op's POV, it doesn't matter because what her husband has done is abusive, controlling disrespectful etc etc etc etc. He has chosen to react that what, no one made him, he chose to and he is making the op believe that it is somehow her fault that she has caused this.
My (d)p would always try and guilt trip me into doing what he wanted via the children. He knew what was best for them and if I disagreed I was causing them to suffer. It's always about control, nothing else.
Luckily for me he can't do it any more I either ignore or tell him to fuck off.
His power has gone.

Luckily all you ladies that haven't experienced this type of abuse and clearly don't recognise what is going on. But as I said earlier on you haven' got a clue what you're talking about, but that's great in many ways of course. I hope you never have a clue re abuse I really do.

Excellent post coffeedodger.