Need help, a slap...something...please

[headinamess]

I'm writing this after reading a few threads where women are in the process of finding out about their husbands' affairs. I read those threads with my heart in my mouth, because in my situation, I'm the straying partner, and I know I'm behaving every bit as badly as some of those men.

The thing is though, I'm so sad, anxious and ill and I really don't know what to do or where to turn.

Almost a year ago I confessed to my husband that I'd had an affair. It still feels weird typing those words, but I can't sit here and say it was out of character for me, because it wasn't, was it? I did it and I have to own it.

I've been having psychotherapy for six years, before, during and subsequent to the affair, and believe me, I have done some serious soul searching about what it was about my relationship with my husband and what it was about myself that led me to make those decisions.

My husband and I also had relationship counselling, at my insistence, and to my eternal shame I resumed the affair during the counselling. The counselling was useful however, and I don't think I would have ended the affair and confessed without it.

Just to provide a bit of background, my marriage has been a very difficult one at times. My husband admits that for years he didn't listen to me over some very serious issues between us, which left me feeling very unimportant in the marriage. I didn't always express myself well - I have an over-emotional personality, which leads my husband to retreat further away, which leads me to shout louder - and so it goes on.

My self esteem was at rock bottom for years, which I think is what made me vulnerable to the attentions of the OM. My husband I got together when we were very young and I was a virgin, and quite uptight about sex. However, as the years wore on, and with the help of therapy, I started to want to experiment more, but my husband seemed reluctant. I bought toys, sexy underwear, books - he showed no interest other than going through the motions because he thought I wanted him to. Even now, after almost twenty years together, I've never ever received a sexy gift from him - not so much as a pair of sexy knickers or stockings. That makes me feel totally unattractive on a bad day, on a good day that perhaps our sex drives are mismatched. I don't know - is that normal?

Now we come to the OM. He was married, a player, he lied to me, he was a serial philanderer. He pursued me relentlessly for months. I am in no way trying to absolve myself from responsibility for what I did - I fully had my part to play in everything that happened. The thing is, despite him being a bloody loser and a bad bet, he gave me a taste of what it's like to be desired, plus we got along great, it was such an easy relationship in a lot of ways. That seems weird, as most of the time we spent together was spent angsting over what we were doing, and we never even had sexual intercourse, but there just seemed to be an easy fit, where there hadn't been with my husband. Needless to say, I fell in love with him. I know it's pathetic and teenage and classic mid-life crisis territory, but it happened. I still have strong feelings for him, if I'm honest, even without contact. The other scary thing is, that I don't feel guilty, but that could be the therapy - I have a good understanding of the reasons for the affair, so while I'm sorry for what I did, I don't feel guilty as such.

Which brings me to the present day. I can't seem to fall back in love with my husband. I can recognise that he's great, he's forgiven me, we've both made major changes to our lives that should safeguard our marriage for the future. I've had no contact with the OM for almost a year. But many of the things that bothered me about my relationship with my husband (mostly centred around sex and emotional intimacy) are still there, and now I'm not in a position to complain about them, because I've lost the moral high ground.

I've tried telling him how I feel, but that just seems to rub his nose in it. I've told him that I think it might be better if we separate, but he just says I know what I have to do (ie go, because he's not going to) and that he isn't going to just roll over. I would love us to stay friends and co-parent, but he says he just isn't interested in that, he couldn't be my friend if we weren't together. The thought of that just devastates me.

We have two dcs who are 10 and 12, and to be honest, I think they are the reason we are still together.

I don't really know why I'm writing this. I think I know what I have to do, I'm just not up to doing it. If anything, I just want this to serve as a warning for anyone tempted by an affair. Don't do it. It really isn't worth the pain.

I wish it was as simple as that, cabbageroses.

There have been many examples of times I've been made to feel unimportant, which have eroded my love away.

For example, he said no to a dc3, then yes, then no. Agreed to sort genetic counselling (there were issues) then didn't. All this time we were having unprotected sex (withdrawal) while he knew I was spending a fortune on tests and praying to get pregnant. I know I should have taken control, but just really wanted a baby and my best chance was to go along with it. Eight years, this went on for. He wouldn't get a vasectomy - no real reason- and still won't. Don't get it.

I went to every ante-natal appt with ds2 (apart from 20wk scan) alone. Was under a consultant due to complications with ds1. Had to have blood tests every time, which I hated. More practical for him to stay at home with ds1, so that's what happened.

Had to have a kidney scan a few years ago. Tumours were mentioned, I was terrified. No offer of company.

Clearing out the garage about three years ago, in throes of contraception issues as mentioned above. Tears dripping off my chin as I threw high chairs, cots, etc into a skip. No hug, no acknowledgement that it might have been difficult. Just avoidance. This might have been the final nail, actually.

I honestly don't think any of the above (and there is more) comes from a malicious place. Just avoidant. But it's still lonely to be on the receiving end.

I've been no angel, I should say.

Nah, sounds like you're married to an emotional illiterate.

He would have heard all this when you went to counselling together, so there's no excuse. He would have been forced to hear it then, and acknowledge what he could do to respond to you more and be more loving and supportive.

However, he is choosing not to. Either he doesn't know how or is deliberately not doing it, he's very lazy/passive and wants you to be the bad guy.

Honey, I try to see every angle in these things, but I have to confess, I think I'm coming down very squarely on your side.

He says that's all in the past, and that if he can forgive stuff, then I should be able to, and then we can move forward.

Well, maybe he's a better person than me, but I can't.

It's not that I don't forgive him, it's just that the damage was done and I don't know how to mend it.

I suppose it all comes down to how much you both want this marriage to work. if you feel you have passed a stage of no return, then it's over.

I suspect too that your DH is scared of you- and your anger. you have emotional outbursts and he retreats deeper into his shell to protect himself. ( I am talking from experience here.)

The baby thing- well, if withdrawal is not playing with fire or sitting on the fnece, I don't know what is.

But I can see why- maybe he was so undecided he thought it was a half way house- you might get pregnant, by accident- but it allowed him not to make a committed decision to have another baby.

he sounds weak- but maybe he finds you domineering and loves you- but has no idea how to show it.

Do you ask for what you want-unemotionally in words of one syllable so he understands- or simply scream when it doesn't happen?

I suspect you think he is weak and this has eroded any respect you might have had.

if he suddenly turned round, told you to get out of his life and he was divorcing you- how would you feel?

I'd say you might salvage your marriage with a lot of effort. real effort from you both. clean slate.

But is that what you want?

He is not a dominant male- you have the upper hand- so you will have to decide what to do.

I also suspect that your OM was the complete antithesis? Alpha male?

You seem to have us down pat, Cabbages. Except I do ask for what I want in words of one syllable - I have a history of screaming with frustration when my husband would avoid the issue and start blinding me with words or picking on the semantics of what I was saying (literally analysing words or the spaces between them).

I sometimes think he is weak, other times incredibly strong. I certainly wouldn't be able to stick by my guns over things the way he has in the past, especially when I knew that by doing so I was hurting the person I was supposed to love. And it takes strength to forgive an affair, so I respect him for that.

OM an alpha male? Well, he'd had a very butch job in the past, was much more outwardly confident than dh - but it was his emotional vulnerability that got to me. And anyway, it's a bit of a giveaway that who you're dealing with is perhaps a bit of a wimp when they conduct their personal life by sneaking around having affairs (says she).

But he was the antithesis of dh in some ways, yes.

Tbh, in the past I've sometimes been forced to take the upper hand, and I've not always wanted to.

It would be nice to feel protected, for once.

Hi Head,

I was married to an avoider & think that their philosophy is that a) they really shouldn't have to do all that analytical stuff and b) if they don't do anything then they can't be blamed. I am not in favour of endless analysis and laying every little nuance of feeling on the table so to speak but it is necessary to discuss and fix out the compromises that every partnership needs. I feel I cannot afford to want to be protected. After 10 years as a single parent whose parents are dead and who has no siblings or relatives within 400 miles I know I can get on with whatever happens myself. You could speak to a lawyer and find out the possibilities. You don't have to act on his/her advice now, or at all but how you can contemplate staying in your current situation indefinitely I do not know. I suspect that if your husband met someone else he would ask for a divorce PDQ. I would not advise you to leave until you are sure of your rights and responsibilities. The children will know there is discord even if you try to hide it. Don't look back at the mess, look ahead to a time when you can at least begin to sort it out. Sounds as though you are too far down the road to salvage your marriage. Take care!

Thanks for the practical advice, WMD.

I seriously doubt my husband would have a relationship with someone else. He's only ever denied it, anyway. He reckons that even if we split, he wouldn't, as the boys are his priority and it wouldn't be good for them.

I sometimes wish he would meet someone else, then he might see what a happy relationship is supposed to be like.

I suspect he mates for life, like a penguin.

Oh this man's a raving arsehole. He basically thinks that you are a 'woman' and therefore you don't matter, you exist to service him domestically and raise his kids. He;s too lazy and selfish to have addressed the issues of your sex life making you unhappy and now he's expecting you just to carry on servicing him because You Had An Affair.
Do it with as much dignity and fairness as possible but dump his sorry arse.

He is certainly very attached to his moral high ground that is for sure

he is "mated for life" with his ivory fucking tower

he is pissing me off now...God knows what it must be like to live with such a cold fish < shudder >

If you really want to mend this marriage, what can you do?
First, both of you need to get over the affair. It happened. it's in the past now. No good beating yourselves up on it.

Second, i know you said you had counselling- but was it any good? what was the outcome?

You might find relationship coaching better- it's a bit more goal and changing-behvaiour focused whereas counselling can end up as going round and round in circles over- analysing.

Ideally, a relationship coach is also a counsellor- don't know where you are but Gladeana McMahon is one and she is at the top of the tree www.gladeanamcmahon.com
She will work by phone so worth looking at.

You see, you both seem to be stuck with patterns of behaviour that are not helping. You can't change your DH- you can only change yourself- and he will respond accordingly. or he won't in which case you may decide to move on.

Your husband does avoid issues it seems- but so do many, many men. Not saying it's right- I am married to one and I know how frustrating it is.

But he avoids, i think, because in his head he has no choice- nowhere to go-literally and metaphorically. He doesn't want a divorce so by staying schtum he thinks he can preserve the status quo, which for him is better than the alternative of being on his own.

I have a close friend whose DH shows some signs of behaviour like your DH- her counsellor referred to him as "autistic"- not a slur on autism- not an insult- what she meant was he was very emotionally unskilled. He has/had to learn how to read other people's emotions and respond more appropriately.

I hate the over use of the term passive-aggressive on his forum, as I think it should only be used by people who know what they are on about- not me- BUT you do both seem to mirror each other in some PA ways- the baby thing comes to mind. You were "secretly hoping" to conceive, whereas he was secretly hoping you wouldn't but going along with half measures.

Did you never think that the reason he didn't want s 3rd child was that your marriage was in such a mess anyway?

I don't know the answers- I could suggest you stop screaming nad undermining the little self-respecthe he has left. I am sure he knows his shortcomings just as well as you do.

What I think you both need are some daily goals in how you behave towards each other, with accountability each week through a 3rd partty.

You ask how you can love him again- well, you cna learn to love him, and he can learn to behave in a way that pleases you. Maybe.

Try it- if nothing esle it will enable you to both leave with dignity knowing you have tried everything.

That's a really helpful post, cabbages. We've had a horrible morning this morning, and reading that was very timely.

We have both behaved stupidly in the past. It's just hard finding the energy to keep trying after all this time.

But we are a family, so it's worth it.

Thanks again.

Sorry you had a bad morning.

Bu t look- sun is shining- it's a new day- make it the start of something- take one step to sorting it and then if it doesn't work you can look back and think you tried everything.
Good luck

Oh God, have re-visited and caught up this morning....

Why do you want to be with this man? There's bugger-all to "save" really.

I wish you'd both just move on.

Life's short you know and it seems to me you're flogging a dead horse.

I don't really, Wendi.

I told him so this morning, and his reaction was that he doesn't want to be a McDad. He wants to be there for the boys every morning before they go to school and every night when they come home. He says that trips to bowling alleys etc are great, but when it comes down to it the nuts and bolts of family life are what really matters to him.

I said, well, what about you and me? He said that he knows he can make that better too, he just wants to show me.

I offered to leave and he said, no, he couldn't live here on his own, and that he wants to move anyway (OM lives nearby, another thing I'm not proud of) so he would go, but he doesn't want to.

I mentioned separation, he said no, if he goes it's for good, so I'd need to contact a solicitor.

He is having therapy to deal with the affair and his issues and he promises me that we can be better. He says that to separate now would be doing so with unfinished business re: the affair, and that we need to get that ironed out before we can move on either together or apart. I can see the sense in that, tbh.

He says it breaks his heart to hear me sounding so miserable.

He just wants a chance. He says he's willing to give 100% to his 50% of the deal, he just wants me to do the same.

I just have to dredge up the will from somewhere. It's hard.

To be fair to him, though, you're only reading my side of the story on here. His might be very different, and you'd be just as likely to think "leave the bitch".

Good point. But it does seem like, with all that therapy and all that water under the bridge.....surely there comes a point at which, you just STOP and do your best for the kids whilst going separate ways.

My DH was never a McDad. He created another home for them. Financially, he struggled to do that but, frankly the kids could see how unhappy mum and dad were after his ex-w's affair.

Lordy lordy....what a mess.

Good luck to you. x

wendi- i think as long as they both want to try that's to be applauded. yes, sometimes it doesn't work but he is saying the right things and where there are kids involved I believe you keep going until you are 110% certain ther eis no way you can be together.

I know this will open a can of worms and it's not meant to- but- recent evidence has shown the kids prefer to be parents who argue but stay a couple, than parents who have divorced- they like security even if home is not exactly happy.

I agree that the way you have both communicated in this marriage has been fraught with problems and like you, I see behaviours on both sides. I can't agree that it took an affair to get him to see your unhappiness, because actually you could have come to him when you were on the precipice of an affair and given him the chance to wake up from his complacency. You didn't do that and I'm sure by then, you lacked the resolve to walk away anyway, hence even if your H had turned into your dream man, you would still have gone ahead. You had the chance to talk to him before you became addicted to the OM though, the early stages of your friendship with him and you didn't do that.

I also think that it is a mistake to attribute an affair to solely relational causes, because I don't think that addresses your individual vulnerability to infidelity, or the way you may have both been socialised about male and female sexuality. I wonder whether some of your disappointment about your sex life over the years has been driven by how you expected men to be when it came to sex? I see links between this and your choice of OM - you seem to have chosen a philanderer who more easily fits the societal discourse of male sexuality.

Maybe your H just isn't like that and never will be? I'm assuming he told you that, when you had discussions about your grievances in the past. Rather than trying to be someone with drives he doesn't possess, that left you with a choice. From his point of view, you didn't enact an open choice though - you deceived him.

Perhaps you need to be honest with one another here again. He might never be the man you think you want. He might be unwilling to experiment sexually and possibly lacks the impetus to try now because from his point of view, it must be patently obvious that you no longer fancy him or respect him as a romantic partner. His self-esteem is likely to be on the floor anyway and it's just about the worst platform from which to reinvent himself.

It sounds as though he just cannot compete here and possibly lacks the confidence to try.

I understand his point of view that he doesn't want to be without daily contact with his children, but if you've ever read Solost's threads, it is a similar situation in the sense that a faithful spouse cannot countenance the idea of not seeing her children for days at a time and agreeing a shared parenting arrangement. However, it's what's best for the DCs that matter, not what is best for the parents.

I don't think you're going to recapture your feelings for your H without a big change in your lives. I think you need time and space from one another and to see eachother in a different light. I do think you need to be as kind as you can to one another when you part and agree amicable co-parenting arrangements.

I am also really sympathetic to the problems you have faced in your marriage
and how difficult it must have been trying to reconcile your very different personalities. I think it's possible that his emotional illiteracy caused your emotional incontinence, so that you were always trying to get a reaction and that this was a script you got stuck in. A third-party observer might have been able to predict what happened next, in each of your interactions over the years; his retreats and your entreaties.

It's obvious that you're taking responsibility for your own behaviour and that's commendable. You also have empathy for his hurt. But this is not enough to rebuild a marriage, because what's also obvious is that you no longer view him as a romantic partner for whom you have huge respect.

You are right about many things. To be honest, I did try to warn him that I was thinking of straying. I actually used the words "i'm worried i'm going to have an affair." I wanted him to stop me, to show some passion. His response was "don't then". My morals are obviously not as strong as his.

I'm not sure about your point about my view of male sexuality. Tbh, everything I knew about male sexuality came from dh. OM was shocking at first, then exciting. Now I can see him for what he really was...
I agree about needing breathing space and have suggested this to dh. He says no.

Yes cabbages, I can see that you're right. It's so sad that the kids always come off badly. No matter how hard the parents try to make the shift as smooth and painfree as possible, it's inevitable that the kids would want parents to stay together. I know my son finds it hard "going to daddy's" every other weekend. It's the fact of leaving home, his stuff and me. He has a nice time whilst there but, he doesn't usually want to go. It's unsettling and he just wants us to be together. It's pretty crap. Sadly, my husband left and refused to go to any counselling. I went. It became clear, my ex didn't want to try and was seeing someone else. The someone else however, wouldn't leave her husband. My ex didn't want to be "settled down" anymore and felt trapped in a "mind numbing cycle of domesticity" he preferred fortnightly visits to his son and a new romance.

I think there's been some excellent input to this thread but only headinamess can decide...

When he said "don't then" did you say to him that it wasn't as simple as that?

And when did this conversation take place - before or after you had met the OM and were thinking of having an affair with him in particular? The timing of that conversation is hugely relevant, incidentally.

You wouldn't have gained all your perceptions of male sexuality just from your H, because at a young age you may have been socialised to believe that men are always up for frequent exciting sex and need it to feel loved, whereas women need love to want sex; a particularly constraining social construct if ever there was one, for both men and women.

If you've honestly never found yourself thinking or saying to your friends that you have felt "less of a woman" because your H doesn't appear to desire you as much as you would like, fair enough. And this is very different to feeling "less of a person".

If what you are saying WWIFN is that the Op responded to a man who was overtly an alpha male in many ways- and her DH is a beta male, fair enough. Common enough.

I don't think it's anything societal- it's chemistry and gut reaction. It's called attraction.

Some women like alpha men some prefer beta men.

OP_ one thing that has not been raised is how was it when you first met your DH? There must have been an atttraction. Where has that gone?

If you can think about his good qualities and why you chose to marry him- what do you think now?

Has he changed? has he disappointed? Did you misjudge? Because the fact is you have had years together and now it's gone wrong.

It's gone badly wrong mainly I assume as you had a taste of another kind of man who was - superifcially- more exciting and sexual- though as you never actually had sex I am unsure how you know that side would have worked.

But you had detached yourself from your DH long before you met the OM. You were "ripe" for an affair to boost your self esteem and feel desired.

I think the answer to this- as well as the behavioural coaching/counselling I suggested before, is to ask if your relationship was EVER right- or if you were simply biding time and making do.

If it was right once then with a lot of hard work and help it might come right again.

If it was never right- then maybe you have crossed the Rubicon, via your affair, and there is no way back.

I don't think separating is a good idea- if you want this to work you both have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty and try to make it work- with help.

Sorry, wwifn, i wasn't brought up with that view of men at all. My parents appear to have had four children without having sex. Sex was a dirty word when i was growing up. I think i chose dh so i could continue that script, but through therapy i've been challenging all my scripts. Including the one about being a good girl, it seems.

The 'don't then' conversation came when my froendship with om had become addictive, and it was apparent where it was heading. Of course this wasn't inevitable - i made the bad choices.
More of a person? No. More of a woman? Sadly om made me feel like a woman for the first time. That sounds stupid and nauseating but it's sadly true. Low self-esteem, much ?

No, it was never right, cabbages. But i did love him. (sorry about typos btw, on iphone).

Another thing OM did for me was to make me believe my feelings mattered, even as he was playing with them. I felt important, even as he was demonstrating that I wasn't. It felt good while it lasted, but what a price we've all paid. Well, except OM, afaik...