Valentine Bombshell - I'd appreciate the irony if I wasn't so devastated

[ValentineBombshell]

MN regular & like most I guess can't believe I'm posting this but am up with unwell baby and my head & tomach are churning.

Dh admitted last night he was attracted to someone else at work & they had kissed. Doesn't know what he wants. Everything now up in the air. Have gone from A to Z in my head where we're divorced & the dcs and I are living on our own. Am shaky inside & my ribs hurt. Am just so, so hurt.

Sympatio, it's a good point. Dh is blowing in the wind. That the feelings/turmoil side of him has taken over/goodbye to everything else. I can analyse us - great for my clarity - but dh needs to rediscover his moral compass and remember the promises he has made. Where is that side to him??

There is a core of selfishness to this that concerns me greatly.

I'm not sure that you are not over thinking this a little bit, there could be something in it, it could also be the reality of having to be the carer made him want to escape into fantasy (EA's). Either way you can't be always the strong one in control or make yourself helpless to feed his need to care.

I am positive he loves you, but he has to get to the root of his issues so you can get off this draining cycle but he has to be pro-active you can't do it for him.

The great thing is you are not daft lol, I think you will make the right choices

Thanks for that last comment TangledScotland. One of the things he finds attractive about me is my intelligence. He's not one of these men threatened by that, probably because he's bright himself (although can see that might be disputed by you lot )

Yeah, I did think if maybe it was the opposite of my friend's more generous interpretation, that in having demands placed on him, he then "escaped"

or 'rewarded' himself after all the drama with another drama for himself?

But how I wish it was dh doing this work on himself.

[you're getting my bleaker thoughts now]

[resolves to stop navel gazing]

After I posted I read the bit about sending thing to OW, I did question his intelligence then VB! I think that does hark back to the emotional stake raising and the fact he's maybe enjoying this a bit more than he should, at best it's very selfish, he is getting a lot of attention and wants to keep it going, I really don't see what sending e-mail to other woman would do apart from starting so sick 3 way counciling group! and doing the absolute last thing you would want him to do.

You are allowed a bit of navel gazing, i'm not a navel gazer either but sometimes we are allowed!

Hugs and good vibes sent to you x

If he kissed a woman years ago and this survived undetected, then I feel sure he quickly allowed himself to get to this stage this time. He won't have needed the same permission-giving process as a person who had been completely faithful. What was he prepared to "allow" I wonder? What are his views about female sexuality? Does he pay equal attention to your sexual needs? What has he been giving to your relationship - how invested has he been?

The first part resonated with him, I know, the last definitely with me. I?ve put aside total embarrassment to discuss our sex life & maybe more suitable for Friday night on MN (keep telling myself this is an anonymous forum)but it's probably relevant.

Just before this all imploded, we were discussing my sexual needs not being met. He was disconcerted as I asked him during sex if he liked what I was doing and then later I said that I felt our sex life had become one sided and a bit selfish, that he came, but it didn?t matter if I did. He was v offended/hurt by this, challenged me and said he thought our sex life had been better than ever since the arrival of dc3 and yes in many ways more mutually pleasurable, especially the foreplay. But I rarely orgasm with dh, I prefer clitoral stimulation, and whilst he usually does do this, not to the point of tipping me over and the movements that bring dh to orgasm don?t last long enough to do the same to me ? he?s tried to stop but then it leads to a change of technique that does?t work for me. I?ve raised this before and for a while he tries but it feels mechanical and like he?s going through the motions to get to the part he likes.

We then came back to this on Monday evening and was just gobsmacked ? he thought that I only got sexual pleasure from him and didn?t ever masturbate. That I had said something like that way back in the past!! I can?t even recall a conversation where I could have said something where he could get that idea. I said I?d always had/how could he think that? It?s part of a healthy sexual relationship. But then reflected and thought how healthy? As this is something I do on my own, not with him, but never once thought he didn?t know. It?s like the time I discovered a few years back he didn?t know bananas were green before they went yellow (he?s colour blind) ? but just something you just assume people know!

DH also said at the beginning of our relationship I knew how jealous he was of other men?s attention, especially the brief bf I?d had before meeting him (which I?ve always found a bit odd as he has no reason: I ought to point out dh is the only person I have had sex with, and him me) But that he doesn?t feel jealous anymore. And I think he was concerned by that ? is that a good sign he asked? (I assume he?s worried it?s an indication of waning feelings of something?) I suggested instead that rather he had faith in me, that I had never given reason to be jealous, that there might have been people interested but I know where the ?stop sign? is, he doesn?t.

He then recalled someone at my old place of work that clearly fancied me, and he didn?t like that. But this person was considerably older than me and the feelings certainly weren?t returned. I said that the older person had once made me a crude offer and I turned him down and dh said I?d never told him that. I didn?t because we saw lots of people socially from work, he would have been angry/dwelled & I had dealt with it ? but dh did know that I?d been a bit embarrassed/made it clear I wasn?t interested. I then gave another instance where someone musclely and attractive was very flirty at my current workplace but it was something I deliberately kept very light-hearted and it came to a stop when he found out I was pg with my first child (at about 28 weeks! - probably reminded him there was very definitely a Mr VB around) and that he?s bought me chocolate for me and the bump and that was it. But again nothing to me and so inconsequential I don?t think I mentioned it (might have mentioned the chocolate!) ? but dh clearly disconcerted by this which is ridiculous given he?s the one having an EA! I pointed out that this was an indication I didn?t live in a hermetically sealed bubble, that like most there are opportunities but chose not to pursue them.

er... or rather me him -

I want to mention something here

VB, you mention times when your H has been a "rock" and "come through for you"

those times were times of high drama

childbirth, childbirth complications, mental health issues and "medical dramas"

I think you need to think very, very carefully about the kind of man you are married to

I cannot wait to see WWIFN's reaction to his suggestion that he email this thread to the OW...I rarely see her swear, but I think she might do it in response to that

I think you are married to a an attention-seeking drama queen that you will never be able to trust

all his protestations of love and distress have been a backdrop to his own agenda...the story of him

he makes me feel sick, and distressed that you are spending so much time unpicking his utterly shitty actions

your energey would be much better spent getting the fuck away from him, and building a life where you don't have to look over your shoulder the whole time

Wow, that was a tough one to read. Maybe because we've just come back from a dinner out as a family - both wanted a non-dramatic way of connecting and to spend time all together.

Not dismissing but want to correct something, not sure it makes it much better, but it was just the WWIFN uncanny post that pigeonholed him correctly and the situation, that if I emailed to him he immediately thought to forward to the OW. He doesn't have access to this thread - well he could if he chose to but it's not really his character to go looking - he only sees what I want him to. But no that idea did not go down well & tomorrow is the talk about the elephant so will revisit that no doubt.

And my illustrations of him being supportive were to show he was there (to balance the critical stuff) but also possibly a pattern emerging. There are of course other example too eg. his support after having ds1 quietly lasted for a long time, over a year at least, just got on looking after him when he wasn't at work. Small example but going back to work was tough and dropping dc1 off at nursery was making it worse for me as dc1 got upset, so dh took that over totally, it meant he only made it into work by the skin of his teeth.

It's really hard to give a sense of a person on here, and I certainly have laid bare his weaknesses. I am hoping, no, need him to address the ones that threaten us...otherwise PAFPM (your blunt style is reminiscent of someone else) yes, I don't see our relationship surviving as my faith and lack of trust in him will erode away. He has a lot to do.

sorry, erode us away.

Sorry I haven't been around much today VB, but glad my post helped. Like Peter said, my keyboard got a rather unexpected spluttering of wine coffee when I read about his suggestion to show the post to the OW. The sooner you get that book the better, although perhaps he didn't understand the walls and windows analogy on the Shirley Glass site? There needs to be a wall around your marriage now and the OW shouldn't be hearing anything about it. She's had a (fake) window into it for too long.

About losing the "connection", like you said, this happens to most couples at various points. You've got a lot on your plate, with you both working and having 3 DCs.

I would say he has got massively complacent about you and the relationship. I was interested in what you were saying about your sex life and that doesn't surprise me at all - that's another under-investment. I am so pleased that you have put him straight about your own sexual needs and have re-asserted their importance. I often say this on threads, but what unfaithful men especially never seem to take into account is that they aren't meeting their wives' needs at all and are too bloody complacent to wonder whether she will look elsewhere too.

On a more general note, the good thing about these talks you are having, is that it becomes your opportunity to insist on changes yourself. This is why marriages can become so much better after an affair.

Just another thought about your H appearing to come into his own when you needed "rescuing" - did he feel like this at all with the OW?

He's hinted that they both spoke of marital unhappiness and I've suggested he feigned his - I wonder whether he has been hearing tales of woe about an uncaring husband and he's been making soothing noises for her hurty feelings?

Regrettably, lots of very competent women get shafted by men who are addicted to dumsels in distress....

Really didn't mean to slip that!

Will talk to dh about what he meant when he wanted to send that post to OW, because it's really not flattering about either of them, and totally reduces her. So a way of dealing with her/putting it to rest, or a way of think TangledScotland put it, '3-way marriage counselling' - muppet.

Mini update: little signs that dh is beginning to act.

Leapt at the idea of dinner out as a family last night (wasn't cooking after having roofers in all day) & afterwards said the food wasn't that great, but everything else was. Dcs loved it/were fab btw.

Said this morning I was having another wobble about us, which he said was totally understandable given everything. Had another text this morning from him "VB, feeling strong. i love you all and can't wait for tonight and the holiday. kisses on lips to you all' - bit slushy (thought I could hear MN retching), not a chance he's getting any snogs from me, but he's telling me I'm in his thoughts/looking forward to getting home & he's going to contact PIL to arrange some time for us alone.

Just a quick comment on what WWIFN said about "dumbells in distress"

Not long before me and ex split up, I was at home with new born and 2 yr old after having a C-section and returning to work far to early because all our money seemed to be disappearing (funding an affair as it turns out)

It was ex's day off but he was out for about ten hours, turns out he was stripping floors for a girl at his work because she had no one and couldn't manage on her own (not girl he had affair with) I said at the time what about me do you think i'm managing! Three days later I was admitted to hospital because of poor health and exahstion but because I always coped he just ignored my distress.

sorry about spelling rushing out to work!

Am very moved that people are willing to share times that must have been so tough. Thank you TangledScotland, I will pursue that. Think the connection is as has been suggested - mirroring marital unhappiness to forge a false intimacy. Have just recalled when I saw her FB picture before Christmas & asked why he was looking at that person, he said 'she knows everybody' & I'm guessing that her sociability plays a part/her role at work is to do with people.

DH just phoned to say he's spoken to PIL. Was talking to my friend who knows PIL & suggested not telling them everything because there would be so much tension that it would be an additional strain. Relayed this to dh who probably was relieved. Otoh, more positive noises about counselling - something we;ll reach a decision on after we've had our alone time.

Am off to sort hotel dh has suggested & then reread thread to compile a list of Qs/thoughts about the elephant.

That's it exactly LeQueen. You've articulated another big, nagging feeling. God, you lot are wise.

There is drama here and he's thriving on it. Not so much from the OW (think he has cut her off, certainly this week & will be interesting if anything is said between them prior to a week off, I guess yes from her, just to remind him of her presence) but he's thriving on the drama of what's going on between us. Believe he honestly thinks he is doing the right thing, that this reconnecting is all good but he won't realise, on his own, the truth of what you've written LeQueen.

If I can't get satisfactory answers, reassurance, realisation, leading to action & commitment to doing some real work on himself, long-term, then we might as well call a halt now. I cannot be facing this again in 6m, 1 year, 5yrs again down the line. I cannot and will not spend the rest of my life trying to entertain him to keep him interested - how , stressful, dysfunctional and ultimately destructive would that be?

He has always been more than enough for me, why can't he know I am should be more than enough for him?

Have intimated some of his to him already, but have actually C&P it [anal I know] but I need some well-articulated insights when I might not be able to make them tonight as there is going to be some tough discussion.

But I can?t walk away without trying. And seeing if he will try and change. There is too much at stake not to do that first. He's said long ago he is a different person to the one when we first met (v different backgrounds/upbringing) so there is history of him being able to adapt/change/learn. But if it all goes tits up, there is no doubt that MN have/will strengthen me for that too

Oh VB, I feel like that today :( like I'm not "enough", our relationship isn't enough for H. It's horrible. I'm still me, I can do some things differently but fundamentally I'm going to be the person he cheated on/rejected/didn't think of all last year. He is the one who has to change, step up, do the work to make sure this doesn't happen again, and how are you supposed to trust to that?

VB I really think that you need to put in place some boundaries as soon as you possibly can, about what contact you are prepared to countenance between your DH and the OW.

You say that it will be interesting to see what contact there will be between him and the OW. Are you really happy to let things play out like that?

I think that you have the opportunity here to say exactly what it is you can live with and what you cannot. Are you happy for him to text her/phone her/meet her? Or not?

Whatever you decide is right for you ? you need to tell him straight.

This isn?t about policing, or being controlling - it is about saying assertively what works for you and what doesn?t. Then it is for your DH to decide whether or not he wants to stay and live with that.

[I should add that I have experience of this. I kind of ignored the OW in the misguided belief that my H would be so horrified by what he had done and the effect it had had on me that he would never want anything to do with her again. Suffice to say that I was wrong].

Am Robberbutton that you are in such a place too, only a bit further on. You rant away, it's allowed. I'm not making any judgements, just that imo it takes a strength to try & make it work & a strength to know when it's time to step away.

Obviously it's the former now for us. I'm expecting a lot of dh in the coming weeks & months & I hope he does too. 'Cos I firmly believe, & dh has certainly intimated ,that I am 'enough' (he said this week he still finds me v attractive/enjoys my company/that I am lovely)

I really do see it as two parts a)not spending enough time together in just v basic ways allowing a distance between us to grow b) issues that dh needs to address with me/counsellor that make him vulnerable to infidelity that are very much 'his'. And once he knows what they are to consciously do something about them.

ALBF, we are going to discuss the elephant tonight and these questions will be raised.

Dh says he has had no contact with OW outside of work, ever. My own suspicions earlier on would seem to confirm this, was no evidence.

Would welcome your opinion on the following:

I was assuming that there might be some attempt at connection today from her, knowing there would be a week's break, the temptation would be I think to 'mark' her place. Not sure dh would feel the need/has said he would not. Again to be discussed tonight.

They will come into contact in a professional capacity but they do not work closely together. Dh had said he c/would look elsewhere for a job but this is not instant in his job, it takes a fair 3-4 months to process.

I was talking to a male friend who had an EA who realised the error of his ways. He wrote a email to the OW and said he was in total love with his wife. That what he fell in love with was what the OW represented, excitement & flattery, not her. Very sorry etc. Her response was succinct: bastard.

That's what I would want from dh (well not word for word), but a v clear signal & complete disengagement.

Shirley Glass' 'Not Just Friends' has arrived. It's very dense.

For those who've read it, do you recommend just starting at the beginning and ploughing through it?

Or given where we're at, are there certain sections we should look at first together/separately?