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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Valentine Bombshell - I'd appreciate the irony if I wasn't so devastated

144 replies

ValentineBombshell · 14/02/2011 05:40

MN regular & like most I guess can't believe I'm posting this but am up with unwell baby and my head & tomach are churning.

Dh admitted last night he was attracted to someone else at work & they had kissed. Doesn't know what he wants. Everything now up in the air. Have gone from A to Z in my head where we're divorced & the dcs and I are living on our own. Am shaky inside & my ribs hurt. Am just so, so hurt.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/02/2011 16:17

VB As I write, I'm trying to unpick your posts chronologically, asking questions as I go. I hope you'll be able to find them when you get a chance to respond.

I completely understand your need to cling to one another. When you get the book, you will read about your notions of safety being shattered. Shirley Glass treats infidelity using a post-traumatic recovery model and I think that's absolutely sound as an approach. Your H's safety has also been rocked though, because in all his thoughts on the run-up to this, I don't suppose he ever imagined that it would come to this point.

I can well imagine he thought that this would progress for a while and either burn out or develop. If the former, I expect he thought that you need never know. If the latter....well, he would cross that bridge when he came to it. I don't suppose he envisaged this rather different scenario.

Has he told you why he decided to come clean when he did?

Regarding love, I suspect you're right and he is putting the "in love" label onto his feelings, because that seems the most familiar to him. However, what I suspect he will learn is that he is in love with the feelings this new adventure offered - and not the person herself. A more accurate description might be infatuation, where she is concerned. Infatuation tends to be all about oneself - there is no great care or tenderness for the object of the infatuation, more a delicious sensation and buzz about the enterprise itself and an enjoyment of the mirroring, being told how wonderful one is, etc.

I'm interested that he spoke about marital unhappiness, because from what you're saying, that would be news to you. Was that a lie on his part - and his own mirroring of her tales of marital unhappiness? You may have seen other posts of mine where I chart this phenomenon, when the happier attached partner feels s/he has to mimic the relational unhappiness reported by the affair partner, even though it's not true.

Now for some other observations and questions.

When you get the book, you will read about taking a holistic approach to infidelity.

The first thing I want to point out is that your relational vulnerabilities are not unusual and wouldn't normally point to infidelity at all. Your marriage has been child-focused, but this is usual with a baby and young DCs and your sexual relationship sounds better tham most couples in your circumstances. There is clearly mutual respect and affection there. It's always a good idea after a catalyst like this, to review the relationship and see where it can be improved (for both of you) and arranging more couple time is sensible and desirable.

However....it is as clear as day that this isn't where the problem lies. Your H has got a huge set of personal vulnerabilities to infidelity. You describe him as "contained", that you are surprised at how much he has "thawed" and opened up. He sounds very low on the emotional honesty scale and the fact that he has no confidantes in his life, demonstrates this further.

For a man like this, creating a friendship with someone who seemed genuinely interested in what he had to say, giving him positive strokes by the bucketload, the effect must have been enormous. The irony is however, that this interest is rarely genuine, motivated as it is by sexual chemistry. Hence in the mirroring stage, new couples and friends look for areas of common interest, even feigning these along the way. It is an illusion, but contributes to the nonsense of being "soul mates".

There will be further individual vulnerabilities and to uncover them, you will need to spend time talking about your attitudes to fidelity - what you have individually felt was permissible in the past. Asking your H about why he thinks affairs happen and whether they are ever justifiable, will be interesting. Where were his personal boundaries, I wonder?

If he kissed a woman years ago and this survived undetected, then I feel sure he quickly allowed himself to get to this stage this time. He won't have needed the same permission-giving process as a person who had been completely faithful. What was he prepared to "allow" I wonder? What are his views about female sexuality? Does he pay equal attention to your sexual needs? What has he been giving to your relationship - how invested has he been?

Then there are the lifestyle vulnerabilities. Straight away, I noticed that he has a close friend who had an affair and left his wife for the OW and his only other friend knows both he and the OW. Did this person know what was going on and encourage it, I wonder? Is this workplace tolerant of infidelity? Is there travel away from home? Socialising overnight? What is the organisational discourse - the sort of conversations that occur about extra-marital sex?

I think there is also an elephant in the room about the OW. She needs to be humanised and discussed. At the moment she is a shadowy figure on the sidelines, albeit she is playing a very good game of pretending to be the understanding and benevolent friend of the marriage, by appearing to give him space. This is highly disingenuous and the agenda, transparent. I'd suggest you need to talk about her, her motivations, her aspirations for this relationship. You need to know far more about the conversations they have had and the intimacies shared.

I think it would be a good idea to discuss this with your PILs, as long as you can be sure they will be supportive and not in blame mode, of you, their son or more likely, the OW. If you need their support to babysit and give you time together, do ask for it. Their insights too, about your H's childhood and character traits might be illuminating. Many In-Laws in this situation report memories of their child not taking responsibility for mistakes, having a fear of confrontation, being unwilling to open up and share feelings etc.

You might want to reveal this to them in stages though. Perhaps, ask them to have the DCs for a couple of days next week so that you and your H can spend 48 hours together without interruption. It would be okay to say you've hit a bit of a rocky patch and need their help, without giving them details just yet.

What you need most of all as a couple right now is uninterrupted time.

ValentineBombshell · 16/02/2011 16:25

Am just awed by what you've written WWIFN, it is him, us, to a T. I'm going to take time to think about it (am also in the midst of major upheaval in prep for roofers tomorrow) but will respond to each point in turn. God, lots to think about. Thank you.

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countingto10 · 16/02/2011 16:33

Does he tell lies in other areas of his life, white lies, exaggerations, general bullsh*ting etc ? If he does, he needs to investigate why he feels the need to do this, what is behind it all.

You see if he told small fibs, it becomes much easier to tell bigger ones in future.

He really does need to do a lot of self-reflection.

TangledScotland · 16/02/2011 16:36

Ok I think maybe (looking from the outside in) that the two of you have probably talked more in the last few days than you have in months, in a strange way you probably feel closer than you have in months too, when this happens there is a danger of raising the emotional stakes to keep that almost high going. (is this making any sence?).

Your child comes home from school and says he did well in something and your pleased reaction makes him pad it out a bit more to impress you more. As adults we do the same thing but on a more absent level.

There is a danger that picking over something that happened ten years ago could cause more damage than it needs to, please dont think i'm patronising you in any way i've just been though the "emotional stake raising" myself. Yes you need to keep talking and being close, connecting with each other again but it's time to maybe focus on the positive and leave the negative for your OH to discuss with councelor/parent/friend. I don't mean brush it under carpet but use it more positively in your conversations, above all keep talking!

I'm not sure that makes much sence but it was the best I could explain it xx

countingto10 · 16/02/2011 16:37

Oops, was in middle of posting when had to collect a DC from an after school club and didn't realise WWIFN had written one of her wonderful posts.

SecondMrsS · 16/02/2011 16:41

He gave you permission to hi thim, and you didn't Confused Grin

I'm so sad and sorry to be reading another thread like this. And it sound slike you never thought it would be you writing it OP.

Isn't it strange how you knew it was this woman on facebook just from looking at her picture. I once came across a picture of my ex in a group of old friends at a pub. One face jumped out at me and i just knew there was something going on with her... I carried the thought around for months then one day he confessed something had happened that night with her. Odd. Women's 6th sense.

I left him, but we weren't married so different.

ValentineBombshell · 16/02/2011 16:42

Actually no, Countingto10, not at all ( a question I can quickly answer). He is known for being very honest, even blunt, part of his upbringing I think. It's one of his strengths at work and why I think this comes as such a shock - to me, to others once/if they find out.

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TangledScotland · 16/02/2011 16:43

I don't know if I made it clear I thought he was doing the emotional stake raising, so I thought I would clear that up, he's not been sure how to connect with you maybe and now he's found a way in

countingto10 · 16/02/2011 16:52

Another thing that the counsellor pointed out to my DH that we live in a society that doesn't put another emphasis on men being kind, honest, good, not enough praise for them, indeed they can often be derided. It was like my DH was rebelling big time from being good and kind if that makes sense.

It was all quite in depth at the time and TBH I was still in a state of post traumatic stress to take all of what she was saying in. But I do remember her saying it was hard at times to be a kind, gentle man in today's society.

Our counsellor could have been talking crap of course or trying to convince me my DH was a kind man despite all that had happened and to be fair, everyone (and I mean everyone) was completely stunned by what he had done, last man on earth and all that.

ValentineBombshell · 16/02/2011 16:53

Blimey, you lot are good.

No SecondMrsS, I never did think I'd be writing this...still feels surreal and I keep forgetting for a brief while and then catching myself. I hope I wasn't smug in our marriage but I had complete faith in it. In us. And family & friends have said too that we are so good together.

In response to TangledScotland's " you have probably talked more in the last few days than you have in months, in a strange way you probably feel closer than you have in months too, when this happens there is a danger of raising the emotional stakes to keep that almost high going. (is this making any sence?)."

Total sense. I was worried about this but again not able to quite put it as well as you. I wonder if he's doing it because it's brought our marriage to crisis point, as he's enjoying the high of reconnection. I wonder too if I am doing the same, picking at a wound, enormously satisfying but not helpful. But then that wars with the desire to know everything (but also not to, as it hurts) so that there is nothing left to come and shake us further later on.

I think I have certainly been guilty of that myself. I said some things last night that were a shock to him, things he hadn't known, and when I'm able to sit and think about WWIFN's points, I'll hopefully be able to explain.

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ValentineBombshell · 16/02/2011 16:56

Have to get dcs from a club after school and might not be on til later but am so glad there's a MN and thoughtful posters like you on it. It helps more than you can know.

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robberbutton · 16/02/2011 17:17

It helps us too that you're sharing and being so open and honest about it. I know people are giving you great advice, but I'm sure there's lots of lurkers like me going through similar who are also benefitting from it, so thank you. Keep posting!

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/02/2011 17:21

I recognise that emotional stake-raising too. What a good point. The drama of revelations like this almost have an energy of their own. I often describe this period as very energising, as though all one's senses are on high alert. It seems so strange, because people in affairs describe feeling suddenly "alive" but the aftermath mimics this too, in a way. Sadly, there is usually a horrible slump and crash once the crisis has passed, but knowing that's going to happen (I didn't) can help, I suspect.

I agree with your counsellor Counting. I do think it can be difficult for men to be kind and emotionally honest in society and in some workplaces, especially. I'm currently on a thread in the Feminist section about the expectations placed on men by fellow men and women. I also think that gender politics play an enormous part in affairs, but this is less well-documented in books and research - and what there is, is often hopelessly out of date and inappropriate for 2011.

TangledScotland · 16/02/2011 18:26

I completely agree with wwifn that it is difficult for men to be emotionally honest, I also think it can be for woman, not so much in very personal relationships maybe but in their relationships with the outside world.

How often have you said "Joe and Jane Bloggs have split up? but I thought they had a great marraige/relationship".

I myself am reasonably happy in my relationship but it's no Disney movie Hmm, when on Valentines day my partner had 2 dozen roses sent to my work the other women were green with envy saying how fab he was at that sort of thing and even taking pictures of the flowers on their phones to wind up their husbands. I agreed happily that yeah he was great but inside I was thinking, if only you knew what a shit he had been on Saturday and this was maybe more to do with that than the day.

I hope you don't think this is off topic, my point is really our expectations of a relationship can sometimes be out of whack completely and we need to stop believing other peoples hype, everyone has issues, don't let yours grow out of preportion just because life isn't always a bed of roses,

Really a comment to all posters rather than just you and your OH vb (but deff for your OH too lol!)

HotIron · 16/02/2011 22:54

Have read through this all and I think there is a lot of hope there for both of you to fix this, you seem to have a pretty good relationship. I'm just wondering what prompted your OH to tell you? was it guilt? Although he kept the other infidelity from you for years! Hope you are doing ok xx

nje3006 · 17/02/2011 10:05

WWIFN has many excellent points again. The issue here does seem to be DH's lack of boundaries. I think you will find the NJF book very helpful.

The hysterical bonding that can come with realising the risk to the marriage is very normal. It will subside though and that's when the tough work starts, that may be when your anger kicks in.

This does feel salvagable BUT DH must be willing to look really hard at himself and what he can do to put in place extraordinary precautions for the protection of your marriage. And he has to be willing to do this for the rest of his life. As they say on marriagebuilders.com, 'recovery is not for wimps'

ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 11:51

Thank you for the positive comments this morning. Not sure where I am at the moment, lots of thinking.

"BUT DH must be willing to look really hard at himself and what he can do to put in place extraordinary precautions for the protection of your marriage. And he has to be willing to do this for the rest of his life."

Totally, totally agree. I just don't know if he understands this, wants to do this...just wish he would wake up.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 11:58

I asked Dh to read that big post by WWIFN?s & he said it was uncanny. He mentioned it again this morning. I said did he want me to email it to him so he could think about it? He said if I did he would forward it to the OW as it explains the situation exactly. I said ?why do you care what she thinks?? , although part of me relishes her reading WWIFN?s assessment of her, I don?t want her involved in us right now at all (which I told him) & I now suspect this would be dh?s way of keeping the drama heightened.

Last night, apart from reading what WWIFN put & also Countingto10?s & TangledScotland?s insights re emotional stake raising and yes the need for counselling, we didn?t do the whole unpicking/talking thing because we were so tired. So although physically we cuddled, there is no doubt there was that ?slump? this morning, which I understood/was prepared for thanks to MN but don?t think dh was. I could feel the emotional disconnect. Tried to explain to him why (re the drama of it)

And I?m not sure I explained this well, but was feeling it somehow down to me to keep us connected and that if I stepped off, he would disconnect again?how impossible and one sided it that? Which is why nje3006's post just hit the mark, as it's got to be him that needs to do the work/make it work.

I was even more upset when he apparently just walked away and started shaving. He then came back and hugged me and said that he was upset and also cried in the shower this morning. That he was feeling disconnected?that he was not feeling connected to me, to the OW. To himself. Cried. I said he needed counselling & he nodded this time ? but still not sure he will. Hugged the children, hugged me & then left for work. On the way he texted ?feeling warm & fuzzy for you now? ? his attempt at reassurance/connecting I guess.

Actually did I talk to him about going away next week, which he thought was a good idea & made a suggestion about where to go (unusual for him). I suggested maybe best to phone PIL from work so they can?t ask lots of questions. If they phoned me I would text something back (would be too upset & now have dc2 at home ill, plus roofer in) briefly outlining the situation & , although possibly they?d be angry with him, for the need to be supportive of us. But again he seemed reluctant/incapable. And PIL certainly haven't rung yet (although he might not have had time yet/not in a job where he could just slope off and make a personal call). Think he?s afraid of them knowing. I could take matters into my own hands re both PIL & the counselling (although really because of taking time off work he needs arrange counselling), people are making lots of time demands on him at work (victim of being good at what he does) & unusually he?s feeling the pressure.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 13:04

I?ve been slowly unpicking WWIFN?s ?uncanny? post.

Has he told you why he decided to come clean when he did?

He?s sort of answered/and this is also a bit of inferring from me ?but will ask him outright when we talk properly again. I think it was because I asked absolutely the right questions and he just splurged, prompted by guilty/intense unhappiness with himself/the situation?if I hadn?t, he wouldn?t have said anything. He recalled a while ago me asking if we were all right (that distance again) and he?d lied and said of course we were, but we weren?t. He says he has no idea why he spilled because this is just awful.

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robberbutton · 17/02/2011 13:21

"I asked Dh to read that big post by WWIFN?s & he said it was uncanny. He mentioned it again this morning. I said did he want me to email it to him so he could think about it? He said if I did he would forward it to the OW as it explains the situation exactly. I said ?why do you care what she thinks?? , although part of me relishes her reading WWIFN?s assessment of her, I don?t want her involved in us right now at all (which I told him) & I now suspect this would be dh?s way of keeping the drama heightened."

Ugh, no no no! Does he not understand he needs to cut all contact with her completely, and if that's impossible because of work, then keep it to a purely business/professional level only. You are spot on about this, I am so Angry for you that he said that.

ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 13:42

Me too AngrySad that his thoughts were immediately of her & that in some way this would open up a channel of communication to her again. Or whether it's to put her 'box' and pack her away.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 13:44

Was looking at WWIFN's next point:

I'm interested that he spoke about marital unhappiness, because from what you're saying, that would be news to you. Was that a lie on his part - and his own mirroring of her tales of marital unhappiness?

Again something to explore when we talk about the elephant in the room, the OW?I?m guessing yes, to a major degree, he has been mirroring & creating a false connection based on this. He said there were times of disconnection before, where he did not love me (wonder what he means by ?love? since he?s used/ascribed/then questioned this word ). I said I felt the same at points, but that I knew that it was temporary, that there would be good times too & all that marriages can go through peaks & troughs. But he mentioned not spending enough time together as a couple. I also said I felt guilty about persuading him to have dc3 but his said don?t be silly, he would never regret dc3, he's lovely, and although initially I was keen, him not, he had gone away, thought about it, talked to lots of people with 3dc, and loved having him. So that as far as he is concerned, that wasn?t the issue.

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ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 13:56

Meant to add that although I felt the same - sometimes not so connected/maybe questioned things a bit - I still had faith in us and thought sometimes that's what a lot of married couples do who've been together a long time think sometimes. Until all this shook us, I still found him very attractive (he said on Monday he finds me very attractive too), that there were plenty of shared little moments, sideways glances, real pleasure in each other's company.

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Sympatico · 17/02/2011 13:56

Just a quick thought in amongst all this emotional turmoil...

It's great to try to understand all the reasons behind his current behavour (and your reaction to it) and I'm sure those insights are helping you both to work through this process.

But, I'll just put in a word for the elements of any relationship which don't involve feelings, emotions, hopes etc - which are all vulnerable to changing on a whim.

I think your dh needs to develop some maturity here. Marriage is a legal contract and a spiritual covenant. It involves making promises and having cold-blooded intention to work for a good future for the two of you.

Loving you requires your dh to be unselfish, looking to act in your best interests, behaving with self-controlled morality and having the willingness to make decisions about the future based on what are the right things to do, and not based how he feels at any given point.

He comes across as very self-indulgent. I think perhaps you need to make sure that in your quest to be understanding you don't dilute his responsibility to behave decently.

ValentineBombshell · 17/02/2011 14:04

He sounds very low on the emotional honesty scale

Yes he is. He really isn?t open with his feelings (his vulnerabilities) & in turn that has been part of the disconnect problem. It?s also meant that I?ve shared as an example to him, sometime successfully but that at other times I felt he was not ?feeling me? & I?ve quite alone emotionally (maybe he has too? although not for want of trying on my part). It?s been easier to share those with friends (out of necessity) to get my needs met - my PND after dc1 lifted when I returned to work.

It?s quite frustrating as I know he feels things, I can see it in his face, but he won?t verbalise.

In times of real crisis he?s been there ? I had a tough time delivering dc1, had post birth complications and developed PND and he was home ASAP after work to look after dc1; he was like a protective guard dog when I went back to the same hospital for dc2, & when over the years there have been a few medical dramas he?s been a tower of strength.

I?ve just noticed something about the timing of the EAs, although whether or not I?m making it fit, or there?s something in it, am not sure. In revealing these details, I?m aware I might be outing myself but hey ho. The first EA happened after I had pancreatitis/thyroid problems (where he was totally there) & starting on a tough first work placement for both of us ? where the OW was also working. The 2nd, after I busted my knee & had months of physio & after he connected with someone at work & this one, the third, after the arrival of dc3 by C-section ? all instances concerning me & him giving a high level of support.

Dh is not socially inadequate, if that?s how I?ve made him sound, he?s funny, perceptive about situations & he assesses other colleagues in a honest but supportive way, he?s actually more outwardly sociable than me & for instance when he plays computer games on-line there is a regular gang he talks to/laughs with. I also see part of the problem being where we?ve moved to which is distant from both our places of work/family, and where previously we struck up friendships with other couples through work and socialized together, the distance now makes this harder. We have friends here but they are superficial/pass the time of day kind. I?ve talked about moving close to my place of work (for schooling reasons/more facilities than here) or even tentatively moving towards PIL & extended famuly but I always drive these things, DH does not.

My friend suggested that I am too capable, that I generally instigate nearly all the key decisions, although in consultation with dh, who then ropes himself in, and that dh liked being needed and missed that when I was back on my feet again.

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