Gaslighting....how do you know?

[fairyfart]

How do you know if it's happening to you?

WWIFN, they will, I have known people who were forced to live together in a bad atmosphere in the same house when proceedings went through with their divorce.

fairy...who has vilified you?

You have posted several threads now about your husband.

All I see here is support for you.

What did you want us all to say? If you want to stay with your husband, and everything is hunky-dory why did you post?

We can only tell it how we see it. It would be very wrong of us to tell you that everything is fine, and just get on with your life. many of us have come from homes where our parents were afflicted with these disorders, and so we know what it is like to be trapped, and what that does to us in our adult lives...how it affects our relationships and our mental health.

One of the big signs of a narc is that they miss the point spectacularly...just saying.

co-dependency
we all, all of MN, have vilified her...
that's quite a grandiose claim along with the entitlement to gaslight us all in response because she doesn't want to believe the truth, freight trains of truth.

correct: we did not vilify her, so we shouldn't be told that we did. Get it, yet? Pointing out the damage caused to children in such circumstances is just stating the facts.

Enmeshment is blinding to one's own behavior. Mirroring his behavior in the guise of 'playing a game' is two wrongs that won't ever make a right. This isn't a judgement. It is a survival tactic, subconscious brain activity to cope the best way possible.

Coping for survival. Not normal. Not healthy: mentally, emotionally, or physically for adults or especially children. Thus exit the circumstances.

FairyFart-Please consider seeing a counsellor, asap. It sounds like you need clarity and validation for what your intensly sincere and honest support group here has told you. "Light bulb" moments often come with a period of shock. Please don't let that translate into dismissiveness, or a degradation of the importance of the discovery.

I have not read the other threads, but from what has been stated here, this would render an affair on his part rather irrelevant, imho. An affair on his part would actually be a good thing!!! Yes, let him find someone else to do this to, (gets you off of his radar). And if you ever meet her, look her in the eye and say, "Thank you".

Just saying.
Good luck...you will obviously need it.

Fairyfart you seem to be seeing the fight in material terms i.e. you could lose your fabulous house. Frankly, from your threads that I've read, that is the least of your problems.

I'm not a big fan of aggressive analogies, but continuing on the fighting theme, I don't fight all of the battles - I want to win the war. My war will be won when my darling, gentle and kind son (who hasn't seen his father since he was 1 month old) grows up to be the fine, young man that I suspect he will be. If I'd stayed with his father (or tried to play mind games with his father) he would probably end up as f*ed up as all the previous males in that family were. So, I ignore a lot of provocation (I do consult my very wise and not-very-litigious solicitor), I don't care that I don't get child support and I don't care what he says about me to others and so I only pick the battles that are necessary for us to continue as we are.

I know there will never be a time when my ex will say sorry and really mean it - narcs are just not wired that way. I'm fine with that - I don't need him to validate my truth.

When my son becomes an adult and enters into respectful and equal relationships, that line of abuse and control, that has lasted generations, will die out with his father. No large houses or superficial 'aspirational' lifestyles would ever, ever be worth seeing my child become a damaged adult, screwing up some poor woman and their children (and so the cycle goes on and on ... )

You have received some great advice on your threads, including some posters sharing truly personal experiences. AF has given you the insight from a child's point of view. I do suspect that you may have a little bit left to travel on your journey before you get your true lightbulb moment, and when that moment comes you will get tons of support on here; we all understand better than you can imagine. I wish you well.

This thread is really frustrating to read. People here genuinely want to help you. But at the same time I'm finding myself feeling very frustrated with your beliefs. I don't see how you can think that your children aren't affected by his attitudes and behaviour. I cannot understand why anyone would prefer that their kids live in a big house than live in an emotionally healthy environment.

My childhood was similar to AF's and the one you are giving your children. My mum chose living in a big house with a narc over a smaller house and healthier environment. Only now at almost 30 and after years of therapy am I able to be in emotionally healthy relationships. It took a lot of work to get here. My brother probably never will be, he has modelled himself on my dad.

'No he will not leave. This is his house, as he states, so he will not leave.'

Go to your local CAB and ask if it really is his house and if he can be removed. He may have led you to believe that the house is his, but remember where your information is coming from.

Your DH may well fight you every step of the way wrt selling the house, but you have as good a chance of winning as he does, maybe even better. Even if it must be sold, you could argue for time to allow the economy to pick up again.

They don't get their own way when you disengage. They lose. What they see as winning is you living your life as a satellite of them. They don't care about the quality of the exchanges between you as long as there is some sort of dance going on. They don't care if they live with you under the same roof and the two of you never speak. Every time you pass, and are conscious of each other's existence they score a victory. The only way to win is to live in a way that tells them that you are indifferent to their existence.

My ex is turning into a serial litigant. Why? Because by bringing constant motions against me on ridiculous grounds he thinks he has me paying attention to him, living my life afraid of what he might do if I do my own thing, a planet orbiting his sun. We have been separated for almost four years now and he is still desperate to keep me in his orbit because he can only live in relation to someone else, and in that relationship he has to have the role of dominator. Engaging and fighting is just fuel to his fire. We do not speak much at all. Communication is the minimum required to convey basic information about the DCs' weekend schedule on weekends when he has them.

I am in the process of selling my own 4 bed house to retire the marital debt after divorce, and though it was difficult for the DCs to learn what had to happen, they have settled into the routine of keeping everything tidy so the house can be shown, and have accepted that I will do my level best to find a nice alternative for us when someone buys it. It was very hard to tell the children that their familiar home must be sold, and it took me months to work up to it. They took it well, considering, and fingers crossed, all will work out and I will find somewhere reasonably decent to rent and then we can all get on with our lives. We will still be a family no matter where we live. The cat will come with us to the new place. We will still have a somewhat burned dinner together every day, spend a while chatting together at bedtime, they will still go to the same school and have the same friends, and their books and things that are now packed away will all be taken out once again when we are settled. They have taken comfort in my assurances to them about their lives. Sometimes I think the children have their heads screwed on better than I do.

It is very hard to let go of the family house, because it represents the children's lives and the hopes you have for their happiness, the feelings of failure and guilt you feel for 'quitting', not to mention your own hopes and everything you have built your life around. I went to see 'Up' and nearly had to leave the cinema because the story was so poignant and immediate for me.

Quattrocento, the point of gaslighting is that it is done without leaving any hint of evidence behind it. The effect is felt but there is no way you can prove it was done. Your last post generated more heat than light.

FF ...'lose his family. If he is a narcissistic personality then surely he won't care anyway?'
He will care because conflict over the children gives him the chance to engage with you. If you divorce, get a rock solid visitation agreement that covers every day of the year, with times of exchange stated. Leave no stone unturned. He won't care about the children pr about being a father per se. He will be concerned with issues of entitlement and the possibilities generated by the need for communication about the children for bullying you.

'My DH has already informed me that he would not be a weekend father anyway so he will not have lost anything.'

My exH informed me he would have just as much contact with the children as he had when we were together. Well, DD1 no longer speaks to him, hasn't since she was about 15, and DS will have nothing more to do with him once he turns 18; he only goes every second weekend now because he has counted the weekends that are left until freedom and realises he can put up with it until the magic 18th b-day arrives. The other DCs are not far behind. He has alienated every single one of them. Your DH will want to be a weekend father if he thinks that would make him a thorn in your flesh or if he thought he was somehow winning at some aspect of the anti F game he plays.

'In fact, because all he cares about is himself, he will actually have gained by not having to actually look after his own DCs at weekends. He will be free to do whatever he wants.'

It is actually a victory for you if he withdraws completely from the children's lives, and definitely a victory for the children. All he wants is to be antagonistic. When he realises how much he needs the emotional sustenance that he gets from dominating you he may change his tune and grasp whatever opportunity he can lay his hands on to exert that domination. If he thinks he can be more antagonistic by insisting on Father's Rights he will fight you for access. Plus, he may want access to the children because children represent little orbiting planets to someone like him. He has this access now. He may find that he desperately needs it when it is taken away from him. If he is a narcissist, he will use the children the same way he is using you if he has that weekend access to them.

For my DD1, a tough cookie, the result of exH's narcissistic behaviour was that she refused to be bullied, stood up to him, and made it clear he would have to strike her to get her to jump when he commanded, which was his thing with the children -- he loved to see them afraid of him. She also made it clear that if he laid a finger on her she would not hesitate to go nuclear and call the police, and I backed her up. He had to admit defeat. He knows he has played his trump card and lost with DS too but insists on exacting his pound of flesh every second weekend. He misses the point spectacularly with the children. I consider myself and the children to be very unlucky that exH decided in his lawyerly way to insist on his rights wrt the children. Consider yourself and your DCs lucky if he decides to ride off into the sunset. Involvement with a father like this brings only pain.

Yikes, very long post there...

ff I live in this kind of relationship and I am out of here as soon as we can sell. It does affect the kids, be in no doubt. Oddly I am now standing up to (d)p, the first time in 15 years. Of course he is on the charm offensive.

FWIW

My Father is the main Narc' in my life...my Mother is his feeder/enabler. Father had/has no choice about how he is/behaves, he was wired faulty from the start...my Mother however chose to play the game...it is her I have the most angst with. Us kids used to talk about how good it would be if she left ...we didn't care where we went...just somewhere other than there would've been good enough.

I had two relationships with Narc's when I first left home....to me at the time the Narc' personality was the one I recognised as being an example of 'partner' material.

My Mother stayed to win the war and keep the material things. If Father bought a car...she would then play the game to get herself a holiday costing more than the car so she became more important materialistic wise. We always new 'we' - her kids - were her weapons of choice...her big threat was if she left she would leave us behind...to punish Father for whatever the latest slight was. Why should he be free of ties and not her?

Anyhoo...they are still together 40 odd years on...locked in the angry power plays...still miserable...still friendless...the only difference is they are now also alone family wise...all of their siblings are no contact (8 of them) and all three of their children are on minimum contact and 'duty' visits only.

We are one fucked up family - my sister is an immoral drama queen and my brother the perpetual manchild - neither have formed any long standing relationships...none of us escaped unscathed.

Do what you will, just be aware this 'game playing' could last a whole lifetime.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Yes, my parents have left a similar mess behind. My sisters are well on the way to doing exactly the same thing with their children, and on it will go. I am no contact with all of them.

I hope that the hard work and therapy that my dh and I have put into not just our marriage, but ourselves as individuals will have been enough to save our kids from this hellish, yes hellish, example of existence.

When you are in it, you can't see it. I can see so clearly now, and I love my children so much that I never want them to be sentenced to that insane family model for themselves.

Think, take a step back, and really think about your priorities. Is it really so important, living in a four bedroomed house? Isn't unconditional love of ones children worth so much more?

Wow some amazing posts here. I salute you ..all you fantastic amazing people who have escaped and survived.

I had two parents who were narcs, and a sibling, and all my extended family save one uncle. I also married a narc, and got pitched into his family of mind-fucking weirdos.

I won't go into long descriptions, but now at 50 I am in psychotherapy, and will never be 'right'.

BUT, my children are saved! I left and survived hell on earth, but MY CHILDREN ARE SAVED.

I haven't read all your threads FF but I just wanted to add to what others have said and say that as someone whose father is like your husband, I so dearly wish that my mum had the strength to leave him and enjoy her own happy life free of his toxic influence and the burden he places on her. I have no idea why she doesn't and I can't do anything about it. I was reflecting recently on the fact that my sister and I are/ were so emotionally "screwed up" in similar ways, and I believe this is because of the negative emotional influence of our father.

Narcissistic people are fundamentally the way they are; this is how they are structured. They relate to people in the same way, and view people as "functions" that meet their own needs, rather than people with thoughts and feelings that matter. Your husband isn't just going to restrict his behaviour to you. Especially as your children grow older (it sounds like maybe at the moment they're comparatively young?) your husband will probably start treating them the same way he treats you, just as my dad started treating me and my sister the way he treats our mum. I imagine it's some kind of control thing - you start getting "too big" and "too independent" to be controlled through physical punishment, and you no longer blindly look up to your father, so he resorts to other, more subtle ways of attempting to control you and "keep you in your place" - e.g., through put-downs, screaming, ignoring you when you speak as though you just don't exist, etc.

In short I am just trying to say please, never think that material privilege is more important than an emotionally healthy environment. In fact, through my work I am beginning to see that the most important thing of all for people is an emotionally healthy upbringing/ family environment. I so envy people who have had an emotionally healthy upbringing. Confidence and belief in yourself and NOT having been exposed to years of horrible emotional manipulation and negativity means so much when it comes to your future wellbeing, good decision-making, and success. Your children will pick up on the emotional undercurrent of the house, no matter how well you may think you conceal it.

Ultimately, though, you'll make whatever decision you want to make. These kinds of issues are so exceptionally complicated and difficult. By deciding to stay and remain in material comfort to "score points" against your husband, you obviously feel that your own emotional wellbeing doesn't matter. I wonder who taught you that?

just to second (third/forth/fifth) this. It was having a little girl that made me face up to the EA and get him to leave, I just didnt want her growing up and seeing her father treating me like that, I didnt want her to think that was 'normal'
I wasnt aware of the whole Narcisstist thing at that point - later I did question whether he had some kind of mental health issues, but having found MN I am realising that a Narc is what he most definately IS.
DD had no contact for 3 1/2 years, after she witnessed DV between him and the next but one victim (has subsequently left this one with a DS, who he seems to be intent to develope into a 'bad boy' like his dad when he sees him) He wouldnt acknowledge anything he had done wrong - lied and diverted and tried to imply that DD was a manipulative liar. Wouldnt do anything to sort out the problem because it would mean that in front of everyone he would have to be seen as not the 'perfect' dad that he portrayed, and that I was the evil bitch who wouldnt let him see his daughter.
He now has contact with DD, but only supervised every 2 weeks for an hour or so with my mum, who can be civil with him but can see through his constant lying, and often laughs and challenges it.

A man like this will always try to 'win' at any cost. He doesnt have the morals of other people. He wont care who gets damaged in the process - if you are engaged in the game, and that means even trying to get on 'for the children' he will find ways to undermine and destroy anything you try to create for yourself. He will use the children to control you - even stuff like not bothering to turn up. The only way you can win is to totally detatch and refuse to engage. Set firm boundaries and remove yourself.

I just want to add that in my case it's not only the parent/child relationships or partner relationships that are difficult...my own sibling relationships are all screwy too.

When and if we are together, we all interact in child mode - we all revert to being 10 years old and assume the identity of that time. We have been triangulated so effectively that a one to one adult sibling relationship has become impossible.

This means the only option has become minimal contact...the therapy needed to sort all three of us out would be enormous and even that would only be possible if my siblings would be open to self examination...but they aren't..so we are stuck in our assigned roles.

'We' could be your children one day.

Well, it looks like I have no choice but to let him win for DC's sake.
Might as well go and start packing our stuff up now then as I am so obviously wrong to put up any fight.

mathanxiety, amazing post.

It's not 'letting him win'. It's not a fucking game.

FF, please stop being so indulgent.

Your solicitor tells you to stay, because legally with a normal human being, you have a chance for reason. By the looks of it, this solicitor has not been blessed with a Narc or anyone like this combative character.

There are many here on these threads that may know the law, but they ALSO know what it is to live under the control of a damaged individual.

You know your H, you say he'll fight you tooth and nail, and he'll take you down in the process.

If you remove yourself and your DC from that situation, an experience that can mentally destroy you AND your DC, why on earth would you consider that a LOSS?

You know your DC can't be witness to this.

You can go to court for a possession order, due to his emotional treatement of you, you can divorce him and force him to pay you or sell the house and give you half the proceeds. If all else fails you can put a caution/claim on the deeds of the house so that he can only sell the house if he gives you your share. There are plenty of ways to protect yourself.

Staying in a house with this poisonous character will never be your best bet. You have to look at the end prize and do what it takes to get there.

Sit yourself down, look at what you want to achieve and see if there are ways to get there.

If you end up free of a person that harms you and your DC, then how can you be anything other than a WINNER at the end of it?

I think FF when all is said and done, your children won't give a rats arse where they live, so long as its happy secure with no bad atmosphere. you are effectively choosing your house over your children's comfort.

I ahve no idea about all these disorders/conditions (narc, controlling, gaslighting) etc that always get talked about in these threads. But blimey FF, you sound like hard work!

Have to agree with Quattro - there seems to be no evidence of anything (though I dont understand why Quattro saying that made FF feel less 'vilified'. Doesn't seem to make any sense in this context).

This thread kind of highlights for me why I often feel uncomfortable with the way some of the relationships threads go. You never know what is going on, or who you are advising and its all so emotive but who's to say it's not the narc/controller/abuser that is seeking advice?

Anyway, just a ramble. Not casting any aspersions on anyone, after all how would I know?

Like I said, your points have been made and we will move out.

Glad to hear it :) love your new name.

She's as bonkers as he is, ridiculing anything she doesn't want to hear.

How am I ridiculing anything?
Have basically gone along with the majority on here and will be leaving. So how is that making me bonkers?
is this not what you all advised me to do?

It seems to me that, if I agree with the majority, I am wrong...if I disagree with the majority, I am also wrong.
Can't really win either way can I?