My sister's DH tried to get her to have an abortion at 23 weeks

[motorway]

I've name changed for this but I feel a bit deja vu because I posted about almost exactly the same thing a copule of years ago.

My sister's DH has been married before and already has teenaged children. Before they got married they had quite a lot of conversations/arguements about her wanting children and him not wanting any more. She (stupidly/naively) 'forgot' to take the pill and got pregnant. This resulted in loads of rows, and eventually he persuaded her to have a termination at 18 weeks. Amongst his arguments were him being too old, it not being fair on his existing children (even though they have a half sister with their mum and they love her to bits), they can't afford it (even though they both have very good jobs and end up with £1000 per month disposable income AFTER all the bills, mortgage, ex wife payments, etc have been paid). But the money is beside the point, it basically boiled down to him not wanting any more children. I posted about this at the time because she has such a horrible time, and went through with the termination because she was scared of bringing up a child on her own. I was the only person she told so I've had to keep that secret since. Part of him convincing her that a termination would be the best idea was him saying that once they were married he might change his mind about having more kids.

Anyway, they got married, and seemed fine but she phoned me last week and said she's pregnant again - 24 weeks gone! I was excited for her but she burst into tears saying that her DH hates her for becoming pregnant again, he has three times convinced her to book an appointment for another termination, but three times saw how upset she was at the thought of it and they didn't go. But then he booked her another appt at 23 weeks and took her there. She had 50 minutes of counselling, during which time she said she could feel the baby kicking. She has also in the meantime been going to antenatal appointments and had even found out the sex of the baby at the 20 week scan. Her DH hadn't gone with her to any appointments and refused to even look at the scan photo.

Anyway, quite rightly the counsellor said she definitely couldn't go through with a termination so they went home and her DH kept shouting at her saying she's ruined his life, wished he had never met her, etc. Part of me understands how he much feel cheated because he's had his kids, and now he's got his own lifestyle where he can go out all the time, go on lots of holidays, etc - he's also a very anxious person and is always tidying up - I think he may have mild OCD - so the thought of a baby 'messing that up' would probably really stress him out. But its happened, his wife is pregnant, they are both healthy, well off, etc so he needs to deal with it, and how he's treated my sister is shocking I think.

I asked her why she had kept the pregnancy secret for so long - they've known since October and she said she daren't tell anyone because she didn't want to end up with everyone slagging off her DH.

I know she was very stupid and not fair on him to 'forget' her pill twice as she knew he didn't really want a baby (this time she thought as they were married it wouldn't matter - she still should have told him she'd missed a pill). But how he's treated her since has, in my opinion, amounted to emotional abuse/bullying. I don't think they should stay together - they disagree on one of the biggest decisions of your life.

Anyway, I spoke to her this morning and I offered to go with her to tell our parents - she was nervous of telling them of her own because they would wonder why she had kept it secret so long and would get really upset. But she said this morning that her DH has suggested they both tell them together. I think this is so she can't tell them what he's been like. She's also said that he doesn't know that she's told me and she's going to 'tell me' at the weekend and I have to act surprised as though I didn't know. I'm guessing so that he can put on a happy face and pretend he's fine with it. I want our parents to know what she's been going through because I think they might be able to better convince her that her DH is being a bully. But that would be betraying her confidence and should I just stay out of it?

Thanks for reading if you've got through all that!

I've been thinking of you and your family, and that unborn baby.

Hope you're doing ok...

Motorway- what a horrible position for you to be in. And your poor sister- what an awful thing to be bullied into.

Truthsweet makes a very good point- and I think you need to make your sister aware of this possibility too. She needs to figure out a way of protecting herself and her baby- it is a horrific thing to have to face up to, but a man who would bully his wife into a late termination could probably consider engineering an "accident"- especially now he's performed the whole proud father act. He doesn't sound like somebody whose problems stem from mild OCD- he sounds like a brutal control freak.

Is there any way you can get your sister to talk to Women's Aid, so that she gets a neutral perspective? Could you arrange to drive her to antenatal appointments, so that she can talk to midwife with your support, rather than her husband taking her? Does she know about the system of stickers on notes, which women can use to indicate that that they feel at risk from their partner but can't say anything in front of him?

I don't know what you say to your parents, but I think they need to know- but it needs to come from your sister, not you. I sincerely hope your sister has a safe, happy pregnancy and birth, and that all is well within the family once the baby arrives. But, hand on heart, I fear that your sister might need your support, and perhaps that of your parents, because I really don't think this man is going to turn things around and become the model father once he's got a newborn baby to deal with.

'I don't know what you say to your parents, but I think they need to know- but it needs to come from your sister, not you. '

She won't tell them. Ever. This has been going on for years.

In the meantime, she expects motorway to lie to their parents and keep incredibly profound secrets.

It's an awful position to be in for the OP.

What I'm afraid of if the OP doesn't just come clean is that, in the even the sister's husband does something really bad, poor motoway will feel incredibly guilty.

It's not fair for her to be expected to lie to cover his abuse.

Inertia - I have OCD and I'm not abusive, nor have I ever threatened and bullied anyone into a termination so I'm quite sure it's not the OCD thats doing it .

That's not to say the H doesn't have OCD but that it doesn't usually manifest its self as abusive. In fact on a CBT course I went on we were assured that even if you have intrusive thoughts about committing acts of violence/sexual deviancy/heresy that we as a 'group' were actually less likely to do those things because we were constantly on our guard against them. Well, I hope that was true or I'm in big trouble!

Not implying that you are saying that OCD is causing the abuse just trying to clarify that if the H had OCD it probably wouldn't be the reason for his abuse.

knitpicker "My DH absolutely didn't want our third child. We were broke and living in a two-up, two-down. He made me see a doctor about having an abortion. He was beside himself with worry and there was a lot of shouting. WHen baby arrived he begged me never to mention again the way he behaved. Our little girl is the image of him and of his mum - he absolutely dotes on her. He is a great dad"

knitpicker, reading that, I honestly don't think your dh sounds much better than motorways BIL What if your daughter looked like you or your Mum? Would he not have loved her then? And he asked you not to mention it but you haven't forgotten, have you?

motorway, I agree with everything expat says. If he was beating your sister up, you would tell your parents, wouldn't you? Emotional abuse is every bit as damaging as physical abuse and if this man is capable of bringing his 23 weeks pregnant wife to an abortion clinic against her will, God knows what else he is capable of.

Very good point someone made down the thread about domestic violence often starting during pregnancy. Your BIL is already a controlling, abusive bully. Very frigthening. No idea whether this means you should tell your parents and try to get her out of there, or whether it's better to keep her secret for now so that she can continue to confide in you. Someone suggested calling Women's Aid - they might be able to advise you.

This man is absolutely an abuser. If he felt that strongly he should have had a vascectomY or the very least,condoms. OP's sister was very silly to have two pregnancies 'accidently'. She does not deserve this though.

I am a midwife and a termination for social reasons at this stage would be hideous.

This is such a horribly complicated situation... I also felt tempted to be judgmental when I read the first OP, but I have controlled myself (it would be a first for me) and tried to see this from everyone's point of view.

I don't want to have children. I have always been sure of this. If somehow somebody tricked me into having them I would be more than angry... I would be in a fury!

However, I would never let that situation arise, because I would never stay with a person who adamantly wanted children. It would be unfair for me, unfair for the other person, and even more unfair to any children who could be born out of trickery or failure in birth control. I told my DP on our first date that I was adamant I wanted no children, and if he did, then we should part ways. I have had this same conversation more times during the time we have been together, because I want to be 100% sure he is in my same wavelength. I would never want to make his life miserable and prevent him from being a father if that is what he wants to do. Only, it would have to be with a different woman. If at any time he changed his mind, I would have to let him go, because loving someone means you want that person to be happy, even if it means it has to be without you. I could never live with a person that is mourning the lack of children.

OP, your BIL should have left your sister a long time ago, when he learned that she wanted children. He should have been consequent with himself, and let her go. Choice is the most important thing in a person's happiness. Having or not having children is a decision that is usually never regretted, as long as the person has been allowed to make a conscious choice. It looks here that neither have.

Many women believe that men who do not want children "will automatically change their minds when they see their baby". Well, this does not always happen. And the chance of it not happening is too high to risk a "surprise pregnancy".

Having said all this, your BIL has allowed many wrong things to happen: first, he chose to trust your sister after she fell pregnant deliberately the first time. Second, he lied to her telling her he "might change his mind about children once he had married her". Third, he married a person who wanted children, when he knew he didn't want them. Fourth, when that person fell pregnant again, instead of leaving her and refusing to have to do anything with her or the child (I have to say, this is probably the best he could have done), he decided to bully her into an abortion. This is unforgivable.

In my opinion, the best thing your BIL could do is just leave. Go, and never look back. Forget his wife, and his unborn child, because he will be no good for either. And I do believe your sister should also erase his memory from her mind, not even bother to chase him for parental support, and live a happy life with her child. Hopefully she will find a man who can be a true father for him/her and will not resent them.

And as many other people has said already, your position is far from enviable. You need to be there for your sister, because I foresee she will need tons of support, love and companionship now and in the future. Best of luck.

I think the difficulty now, motorway, is that your sistr has been under your BIL's thumb for so long that she is actually now becoming complicit in the abuse and the secrets and the lies.

You've already said that you really don't know if you can trust her due to the miscarriage (either real or made up to give credence to this current pregnancy).

I have a really nasty feeling that if you were to say anything to your parents and your sister found out, that she would turn on you. She will be (a) furious with you for betraying her confidence, and (b) desperate to protect her "D"H. I wouldn't be surprised if she accused you of fabricating it all because you're jealous/unhappy/any reason she can think of.

You're in such a difficult position, OP, but I honestly think the only step you can take at the moment is to try to sit down with your sister alone and try to get the whole truth from her on how her H is feeling, whether the miscarriage really happened, etc. Only then can you get a better idea of what you can and should be doing.

So sorry for you

I remember your thread 2 years ago too and also found it incredibly distressing. I cannot believe she went on to marry him!!! Did she have any counselling after her abortion??

It must be so hard for you motorway to know all this, in a way you are too involved and your sister is now making you a small part of this dynamic she has worth him by expecting you to lie.

She is being abused, emotionally if nothing else. I have no advice but i have a lot of sympathy for you.

Truthsweet- the OCD was mentioned by the OP as a possible explanation for BIL's behaviour - I agree with you that OCD isn't the problem here, the problem is that he is an abusive bully.

Expat - I suspect you are right, which makes it so hard for motorway. The dilemma motorway has is that her sister might cut all ties if motorway tells her parents. I don't know what the answer is - perhaps getting herself, sister and parents together and trying to get her sister to talk about it first? This is why motorway probably needs advice from the professionals about how best to help her sister.

'The dilemma motorway has is that her sister might cut all ties if motorway tells her parents.'

Yep. But the other side of the coin is that if this man because physically abusive or worse, motorway will carry the guilt of having known about it and said nothing.

I completely agree with aurynne as well. I was once married to a man, we were young and foolish when we married and just thought the future would spin itself out, who came to the conclusion in his 30s that he never wanted children.

We divorced.

But the situation here is that the damage is already done.

This sister has put the OP is a real bind, and she needs to get some help on what to do that is best for her, because she counts just as much in all this.

sorry, became physically violent.

Thanks again for all your support and advice. I don't get a chance to use the computer much with two young DCs trying to jump on me!

Just wanted to say it is really helping just to read people's different perspectives and experiences. I've told my DP about it - my sister didn't even want me to tell him but I can't hide things from him. He thinks we should ask my parents to come round tonight and speak to them together about our concerns, and to ask how my BIL was when he told them the news, and ask what they think about the whole thing. But it would be betraying my sister's confidnece especially as we'd probably have to tell them about the first abortion to explain why we are so worried. I was the only person my sister told about that (although my DP knows too) and she seems to have put it behind her - when I last spoke to her she said that was a separate thing not related to this pregnancy and she's forgotten it (I find that hard to believe, surely terminating a wanted baby can't be that easy to forget - and it IS all related to this pregnancy and the whole thing about them both wanting different things).

Thanks for your comments about OCD - I'm always trying to think of logical reasons for things - I find it hard to believe that someone can just be nasty with no reason for it. But I don't think for a minute that having OCD would make you a bully. I was just wondering out loud whether that might be part of why he likes to feel he is in control. And how the thought of a baby and all the unpredictability of it might really upset him if he likes things in order (apologies if I am misunderstanding OCD here - I'm just trying to think of some kind of explanation really).

I'm still not sure what to do - hardly slept last night for worrying about it.

Re the suggestion of going with her to the midwife - I'm not sure she'd be up for it - now that things are 'fine' with her DH and he's 'happy' about the pregnancy I expect he'll go with her. She is so fixed with the idea of their happy family together I think she is trying to forget what he's been like and they're now trying to pretend they're a 'normal' couple expecting a baby.

Me and my parents live an hours drive away from her too so offering to give a lift, etc isn't really practical.

sorry, motorway, but I'm with your DP here.

i think it is completely unfair of her to expect you to keep such things in complete confidence at the expense of your own emotional well-being.

you're worried sick, your DP sees this.

you're being expected to be complicit in his abuse by lying to your loved ones.

this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

it may mean she will cut you off, but motorway, you've supported her as much as you could now it is costing you emotionally too much.

i'm all for supporting my sister no matter what, but when if it involves lying to cover abuse and starts taking such a toll on my emotionally that even my partner thinks it's time to call time on it, i'd have to draw the line.

I agree expat. I think your DP is right motorway. I think it also depends on your parents - for example, I know without doubt that were I in a similar situation, I would be able to talk to my parents about it without them revealing anything to my Sister - but be happier with the knowledge that it is 2 more people aware of the situation and 2 more reliable caring people keeping an eye out for her.

A few years ago, my brothers partner revealed that he had left her - they have 4 children togther but to be honest never really got on, but he never said a word to anyone and I was the only one who knew and she asked me not to tell anyone. It sounds like nothing really (and certainly is nothing in comparison to your situation) but at the time it was an awful stress and burden to carry and I did end up telling my parents in confidence. It just helped the whole atmosphere and helped certain things make sense to my Parents - but they never revealed to my brother that they knew. He did eventually tell them - but I think it was almost 3 years after the event believe it or not!!

It is going to be far too stressful for you to carry this on - you will end up ill.

motorway, I think I'm with expat - like I said in my last post, I think if you tell your parents the fall out will be huge, and you need to be prepared for the impact this will have on your relationship with your sister. Equally, you may need to be prepared for the fact that it might get a bit nasty as she attempts to protect her "relationship" and current situation.

However, if you have a good relationship with your parents, and you feel certain that they will accept without question the information you'll be telling them (let's face it, it's quite a lot to take in!), then you should speak to them.

You may find that a two-pronged intervention from both yourself and your parents may outnumber her and force her to take a long, hard look at what needs to be done.

I have to confess that I too worry about the possibility of an accident or at the very least some form of domestic violence..its true that it quite often starts in pregnancy.

Many years ago when I was a teen one of my friends fell pregnant at 16 and was pushed into marrying the father..he was a controlling bully..who obsessed about the house being clean..I can remember going there once and her husband dragging her out of the kitchen by her hair because there was a toy on the living room floor..

she fell pregnant again and he was not happy (despite his refusal to use anything) on the outside he appeared chuffed..but one night..when my friend was about 7/8 months..he calmly rolled over in bed and kicked in the bump..he then dragged her out of bed and threw her down the stairs..as she lay in a crumpled heap..he phoned for an ambulance declaring that she had tripped..

thankfully by some miracle her baby was fine..and she summoned up the strength to leave him...she has re married and her two grown up children have nothing to do with their father

I do so worry about the op's sister and find it hard to beleive that a man who just a week ago wanted rid of his unborn child will have turned over a new leaf

I feel a bit better at the minute - I've told my parents. DP suggested I phone them and the subject of the pregnancy would be bound to come up (they stayed over at my sister's last night and celebrated with them) and I should try to tell them that all is possibly not quite as it seemed to them yesterday.

My mum said BIL had been really excited, it was him who announced it, they then went to the pub and he got quite drunk and was telling everyone in the pub. He said he was happy because my sister's boobs had got bigger (an odd thing to say to your PIL I thought ) and was talking about names, and extending the house. Then this morning he was talking about going out to get a new car for my sister so they could fit the baby things in).

So my parents were very shocked when I said how worried I'd been. They said I mustn't tell my sister I'd told them otherwise she won't trust me and might not confide in me if there are any more problems. But they were glad I did tell them and my mum kindly said now I'd shared the problem I shouldn't worry so much because its their job to worry too.

She suggested we all just try to act as normal for now, and I need to ask my sister if her DH is completely on board now and just be there for her.

My mum did remind me of how controlling he is (and she likes him) - when him and my sister moned in together he made her get rid of all her furniture, photo frames, pictures, etc and decorated everything to his taste. He chooses where they go on holiday and he chooses her cars (they seem to change car a lot!). She also said that when my sister told them she was a bit sad that she'd have to go back to work full time after the baby was born because they can't afford for her to cut her hours, her DH was on the internet ordering new ski equipment. His priorities are clearly different from hers.

Anway, now I've shared the burden as it were I feel slightly better and I know I'm now having to lie to my parents and keep it all a secret. Will try to speak to my sister in the week to see how her DH is being.

moved in not moned in!

not having to lie to my parents. Not now having to lie! Sorry typing in a rush trying to get dinner ready!

I'm glad you got this off your chest, motorway.

It's not your fault she stays with an abusive man.

That sounds like it went as well as you could possibly have wanted it too, and I'm glad that your parents also agree that your sister shouldn't know that you've told them.

Pleased you can share the burden, and I hope that everything works out for the best, whatever that may be.

motorway, I am so glad you told your parents. Your Mum sounds lovely!
And you know, your sister didn't have to tell you, did she? Perhaps in some small way, she would also like your parents to know? It can't be easy for her, keeping that from them.