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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Do you expect a new DP to ask before first penetration?

325 replies

OneMoreChap · 03/02/2011 17:52

I was shocked to find that some people would think that because I have never said, in effect "May we proceed to coitus" I've possibly been having non-consensual sex.

I've asked girls if I may kiss them, and even women too. I've never asked "Can we have intercourse?"

I wonder what some women expect? Should consent be in writing - as otherwise you could change your mind?

Should it be witnessed? As it could have been under duress?

Surely, the premise should be "no means no"?

I'm just stunned, but then I'm 50+ and long time out of the dating/chasing game.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/02/2011 14:12

Right. My specific comment about your being misinformed OMC was in relation to this comment in your previous post:
"....was apparently going to be made illegal."

Misinformed, because the law thankfully changed 8 years ago and rightfully placed the onus on the male to gain consent and moved the onus away from the female having to say "no". HerBex's post admirably illustrates the thinking behind that change in legislation.

However, for me this is less about the legislation and more about sexual and societal behaviour. The legislation means bugger all if rape convictions are still so low and the issue of consent relies so heavily on one person's word against the other.

The new legislation helps rape investigation to an extent, because a suspect is routinely asked whether he gained verbal consent at the point of penetration. However, the police are reliant on the CPS taking the matter to court and rape within relationships (new or old) is notoriously difficult to prove and attain a jury conviction, using the current "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" criminal standard of proof.

What interests me more is that men become aware of the gender politics of coercion and why females can still find it difficult to "say no", silently consenting to sex they don't want. I want people to think about those issues and specifically, I want to raise my son with the attitude that he must at all times check that a new partner is consenting and happy to proceed and yes, that means asking her.

I want to raise my daughter with the attitude that she should never have sex that she doesn't want and to give her the confidence to assert her boundaries. That if she ever feels she might buckle under pressure, she will not get herself into the situation in the first place and, to quote you OMC, "risk-assess" people and situations.

It's not about bringing our sons up so that they don't get caught and prosecuted, it's about bringing them up to treat women with dignity and equality. Asking someone's permission before you penetrate her for the first time is just good manners, because there could be all sorts of reasons why a woman will want to become intimate, short of penetration.

It therefore doesn't matter that a male can still be prosecuted if a woman disagrees that he asked for consent (infinitesimal though that risk would be) - what matters is that the male knows he did the right thing.

I do despair at women who think that if a new man does this, it's unsexy and off-putting and I detest the culture whereby a man is jeered at by women for not "being a man" and "asserting his will". A lot of the posts on here from women who think that "men should be men" drive me round the bend, if I'm honest. I can understand some men's frustration with these appalling double-standards, but that frustration is shared by feminist women too.

As for schools, I do a lot of work in this area and can happily report that the message being given to boys is that there is no such thing as implied consent. He should ask if it's okay to take things further, especially where penetration (by any part of his body) is concerned. The message being given to girls is that some sex can be coercive and ambivalent and the pastoral work helps them to raise their esteem and confidence in asserting their boundaries.

One of the things we've been really keen to do as parents though, is to mitigate against some of the negative and frightening aspects of sex education and affirm to them both that sex is bloody wonderful and hugely enjoyable amongst consenting partners.

MoaningMedalllist · 04/02/2011 14:44

usually if my dp are getting handsy its going there anyway , My DP has done it before when I've been practically asleep, which is a big no no for most women

its all about making a decision on what your comfortable with, and making those boundaries heard.

OneMoreChap · 04/02/2011 15:11

Thanks for the both patient and long explanation WhenwillIfeelnormal

I'd agree - completely - that sex should be consensual. In HerBeX's terms

Is she wanting you? Is she showing you she's wanting you? Is she arching herself towards you, is she kissing you back, are her arms around you, is she pressing herslef against you, is she caressing your hair, neck, back, bum? If she isn't, what is she doing? Is she trying to pull away from you? Is she still and frozen? Is she saying and doing nothing? Does she seem detached? Does she seem as if she's not really connecting with you? ARE YOU SURE SHE WANTS YOU TO DO THE THINGS YOU ARE DOING? And if you're not - STOP doing them.

Fine; it's consensual, and that I understand.

In your terms:
I want to raise my son with the attitude that he must at all times check that a new partner is consenting and happy to proceed and yes, that means asking her

He should ask if it's okay to take things further, especially where penetration (by any part of his body) is concerned

Asking someone's permission before you penetrate her for the first time is just good manners , because there could be all sorts of reasons why a woman will want to become intimate, short of penetration

Fine, thanks; I understand both positions.

Oh, and though blinder won't see this:
No-one is saying that you've been having non-consensual sex ffs.

Snuppeline Thu 03-Feb-11 18:53:34
Sorry but that sounds to me like you have coersed women/girls to sex.

Yes, they did.

blinder If consent is obvious, fine.

Which is what I've been saying...
but to make sure everyone's on the same page - you should ask.

I don't think I'll start anymore threads for a while :); maybe just join in some.

I apologise to those I've offended; I've certainly learnt quite a bit. To those who have offended me, I'll get over it; sorry for being a bit precious.

OP posts:
monkeysmum79 · 04/02/2011 15:49

What is this Mums net mafia. The guy just wanted an opinion from us. But it seems like most of you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that he must be some strange peado, sex pest or secret rapist looking for some way to justify past misdemeanor.
Conflugenglugen is right there is a double standards thing going on here, Earwicga seems to feel her playground has been invaded. Get over yourself love, they have a name for people like you.....CYBER-BULLY! Angry

FlamingoBingo · 04/02/2011 16:01

How on earth have you got that impression, monkeysmum? He asked a question, he got an answer about a century ago, but for some reason he thought he'd better ask it just a few more times - not quite sure why.

No one called him a paedo, sex pest or secret rapist.

Mouseface · 04/02/2011 16:02

I have to add to this thread now that I've read it.

OMC - I saw you on the other thread, I liked what you wrote and told you so.

I totally get where you are coming from and can say that those who have taken the time and effort to break your posts down and help you to understand maybe some of the comments made, think along the same lines as I do.

WWIFN - her most recent post had me nodding in agreement, as did HerBex

The fact that you are not a mother and a man of 50 (I think?Blush if you are younger) makes no never minds to most people here.

You are a parent as I understand it so why shouldn't you post?

Actually, even if you weren't, why shouldn't you post?

I thought all of your posts held water, although maybe some were worded a little erm, differntly to how would say it.

But then again, I'm not the brightest candle on the cake Grin

I'd like to see more of you. Take on board the constructive comments that you have had, ignore any that you have found rude or offensive.

Welcome to Mumsnet. Smile

vezzie · 04/02/2011 16:08

Have skim read so sorry if I've missed this being pointed out already; but don't assume that having had consensual sex with someone once, you now have life time privileges. The "first penetration" bit in the thread title implies that you get a season ticket

AnyFucker · 04/02/2011 16:08

^AnyFucker Thu 03-Feb-11 22:35:54
OP, you need to grow a thicker skin if you want to stick around

You see newbies who come on and throw their weight around a little (for whatever reason) don't go down too well

it happened to the best of us

we stride in here, see all that is wrong.with.mumsnet and think we can tell people what is right under their noses

it never works

you have 3 options

  1. front it out and be tomorrow's chip wrappers ie. realise no-one really gives a shit

  2. name-change and come back a wiser poster

  3. fuck off and cry

your choice^

OMC I see you are taking option (1). Wise choice Smile

AnyFucker · 04/02/2011 16:09

aww shit, my italics didn't work

that has ruined my day < grump >

Mouseface · 04/02/2011 16:12

GrinAF

Mouseface · 04/02/2011 16:13

Shock my bold didn't.

That's ruined my week

OneMoreChap · 04/02/2011 16:14

vezzie I've never asked

WWIFN suggested you should ask first time.

As I said, I've never done anything that would have raised HerBeX's eyebrows.

I'm married; sometimes I'm not in the mood; sometimes DW isn't in the mood. Consent always matters for the avoidance of doubt.

OP posts:
OneMoreChap · 04/02/2011 16:19

FlamingoBingo here, have a friedly Jaffa Cake.

You take the biscuit.

I asked because there was dichotomy in what I was told. I've made it explicit in my post of Fri 04-Feb-11 15:11:54

HerBeX explains consent in terms of actions; WWIFN in terms of asking

I've accepted the dichotomy. That's why I asked.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 04/02/2011 16:42

Italics - need to be done at the start and end of each paragraph

Bold - needs a space between the smiley and the first *

HTH Wink

Mouseface · 04/02/2011 17:06

Thanks Bertie Grin

Mouseface · 04/02/2011 17:06

Whoo-hoo!

[easily pleased emoticon]

anais53 · 04/02/2011 17:37

I haven't read the whole thread but as a 53 year old woman I find some of the comments truly pathetic (Wimple's namely).

The OP is a 50 year-old PARENT who has asked a not stupid or offensive question about RELATIONSHIPS so why the ageist/sexist reactions? As to the original question, why on earth would you have to ask anyone - it should be obvious whether or not they want to have sex. If you have to ask, then they're obviously not keen and you should just back off.

imright · 04/02/2011 18:03

What a strange thread, or is it me?

imright · 04/02/2011 18:06

Why would a 50 year old man post this? Surely you would know these things, at his age? Seems strangely pervy, even if a younger man wrote it!

AnyFucker · 04/02/2011 18:09

imright, it is a thread about a thread, that is why it may seem a bit random

can 50 yo's not post whatever they like ?

softglowsandmaybes · 04/02/2011 18:23

I have questioned the OP posting this thread, however i have never seen anything questionable in his posts and I have to say, he seems like quite a gentleman. Maybe im wrong Im not sure a perv would get off on the finer points of consent anyway.

softglowsandmaybes · 04/02/2011 18:23

AF - don't people stop having sex when they are 49? Wink

AnyFucker · 04/02/2011 18:37

soft...I'd better let DH know then

it won't be an easy conversation, there may be tears Smile

softglowsandmaybes · 04/02/2011 18:51

Why's that AF? Does he have ten more years to perform?Wink

AnyFucker · 04/02/2011 18:56

err, no, soft, he has one more year

I think I will cry myself Sad

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