Awful sex mistake - the shame :-(

[h20]

Sorry about this, but I have just had the most bizarre experience and I don't know what to make of it. I drop my sons off at School in the mornings and have noticed one of the dads of a kid in my eldest's class looking at me a lot since last summer. I often see him staring over, and have noticed him watching my arse as I walk away because I can see him reflected in a glass door etc.

He finally came up to speak to me last week and we made awkward small talk. I am thinking he is cute - not my usual type, but cute. He is a coach at a local sports club. I ask someone that knows him at work what he is like and the report back is positive. I am half thinking he might ask me out.

Anyway, this morning I have the day off and as I leave the school grounds he is there. We have a quick chat and I tell him I am off work today and tomorow. He asks me about my husband, I tell him I am divorced. I say why doesn't he bring his son to play one day. He say's 'I don't think my partner would like it much', but maybe have coffee some time? We go our separate ways.

A few minutes later he drives past, and then again and pulls over in front of me. "Want a coffee?" he says. I stupidly invite him to my house which is just round the corner.

Anyway, cut a long story short he says he is mad about my body etc etc and I tell him I'm not interested - he is in a relationship etc. I'm not sure what to do now, feeling awkward - he starts kissing me and touching my bum, and, why why why??? I did't feel able to say no and we have sex in my kitchen. It was crap. I now feel like crap.
He leaves saying see you tomorrow, like he wants to do it again, how about wearing hold-ups etc (YUK). I say I'm busy tomorrow.

How on earth do I make myself feel OK, what a total idiot I am. I am so embarrassed.

Oblomov Of course I did! I'm leaving this thread - after that foul-mouthed tirade of abuse. Clearly this is not a civilised debate.

MOSP, I know it's not the done thing on MN but sod it, have a (())

I know exactly where you're coming from. Thanks for posting.

ladybiscuit who said anything about reporting your posts? I personally prefer things to stay as written, true record and all that. Will definitely not be reporting, I don't feel insulted, more bemused tbh.

At the start of the thread I was very much in the this should not be classed as rape camp, bad experience and all that. But a some posters made what I thought were valid comments that made me reconsider my stance. However, there are so many nuances, degrees of assault, it's something that often happens in private so difficult to corroborate.

The one thing that remains a question mark in my mind is - (and I will try and explain as best I can) does the expereince colour whether we view sexual encounters as rape or not in hindsight (in situations, as I'm sure is often the case, where it's not black and white). I can thing of an example in the past where I had sex which I initially rebuffed. I did it but expressed reluctance, and genuinely wasn't sure about it. But in the end got in to it, and don't regret it, certainly wouldn't classify as rape. What would the outcome have been if the opposite was the case.

I think this is a valid POV and was therefore surprised by the fuck off retort theladybiscuit. I really must leave you to it now as I'm not sure that my further contribution will help the OP's cause.

Admitting to yourself that you have been raped can be as bad, if not worse than the rape itself in the case of non-violent rape. That is why many deny it. It is really quite simple, she told him she wasn't interested, he persisted. She didn't feel able to say no, understandable, she'd already said no, to no avail. "Why, why, why?" They had sex in her kitchen, it was crap, she felt crap. Then a cat fight starts on here, some people as good as saying she had asked for it by asking him back for coffee! Anyone else noticed she hasn't been on here for a while? Anybody else worried about how she's actually feeling right now? If she doesn't want to attach the rape label to this incident right now, I don't blame her and she shouldn't do so. If she never wants to do so, she shouldn't. She needs to do what is best for her in order to get over this.

SlightlyJaded - I think it's a really, really fine line. Some men are opportunists and while they won't assault women in dark alleys, they prey on vulnerable women. I think that your experience may have been rape. If he knew that you were not in a fit state to give consent (and I believe there's been a ruling on that) then he has to assume he does not have consent.

But it's a very grey area as I said earlier and what I hate about this thread is that if we normalise that sort of experience and say it's just one of those things, she shouldn't have been so pissed and vulnerable, it's legitimising that behaviour and that really, really isn't okay.

thebrownstuff - not sure I agree but thank you for explaining. Can you understand why I thought your one liner about whether or not she enjoyed it was offensive? If you had posted what you just have in the first place, I wouldn't have told you to fuck off! I don't think this thread is the place for a one liner - this whole discussion is incredibly nuanced

I think there's a huge issue with what you're saying tbh but I think my last post pretty much explains it.

Rhadegunde I honestly don't need sympathy. It has never really bothered me other than making me 'cringe' slightly on the handful of occasions i have given it any thought. I am not looking to turn it into something it wasn't.

Which is why I asked my question. At what point does a chancer become a rapist? In some ways it was a similar thing to the OP in that I didn't say 'no', I just felt it, but other than my inebriated state and lack of enthusiasm, how could the bloke know that i was regretting it even before I had done it? He couldn't. A very sober/sensitive /decent man might, but not being sensitive or decent doesn't make you a rapist.

What is the defining factor?

The libster - you have said what i have tried to say over and over, but you have said it much better and much more clearly than I have. I too am worried about the OP.

Seen as we are all saying xyz, you don't understand radda radda.

I have been raped mutiple times, it was a blood relative. Not violent. It's common knowledge in real life so meh. I am fully aware how you are more likely to be raped by someone you know in the day, infact I quoted it in the thread recently about marital rape, where was everyone then?

People are like sheep on here, follow the popular poster. I went through shitty relationships, abuse cycles all sorts and I had little self repsect, I was royally fucked up.

I went through years and years of help to stop that and I refuse to be a victim. I cannot abide by women always wanting to be the victim all the time with no personal responsibility.

I sure as hell would never say rape is anyones fault. However this to me is a case of things just got out of hand, and things went too far. Judging from the way op talks and describes it. All I can say after being royally fucked up myself and now in the right place, there is no way on earth some letch who had been obviously giving me signals, would I invite him around on my own for coffee. It would never happen, I would in this situ be expecting some sexual things to happen.

That is because as much as I have the right to do xyz, I know life is quite frankly not like that, and you can't do thinks because you should be able to, you have to have some self awarness, common sense, and think ahead at times. As life is not always as lovely and hunky dory as we'd like.

A bloke who has been staring at my arse for the past year in the school playground, would not be coming around for coffee on his own, alarm bells would be ringing. I do however have men over my house, on my own who help me when DH is away. This is however different, I know them very well, and although things can happen when you least expect it, they never have. If I got a hint they were that way towards me, i wouldn't be in their company by myself. Self awarness. I don't want to be a victim, I broke that cycle. But I won't kick and scream I can't do xyz because I should be able to, I know in this world, sometimes common sense and safety comes first.

OP I hope you are ok.

I hope drop off wasn't too hideous.

I hope you come back.

So because you have good boundaries emmy you have fuck all respect for a woman who has come out of an abusive relationship and doesn't have them? Nice

No I don't have any respect for women who make other women into victims all the fucking time.

That was not aimed at op, more the usual suspects who are always the same. This situation would never have happened if op had got herself sorted. That is not her fault, but hoepfully now she will get help to get her self asteem up, so she has the respect to turn men like this down before they even get into the door.

I think he's a slimy dick who took advantage yes, rapist, no. That's my opinion. Oh and I do know the ins and outs of rape thanks.

yada, yada I'm not a woman, I won't understand.

I know rape victims.

I have been the boyfriend of a woman who was previously raped; I saw the impact it had on her. No, I can't imagine what she went through, not having been raped myself.

I know she said she'd been raped.

This "processing the event"; "coming to terms with what happened" smacks - strongly - of recovered memory.

Is mumsnetHQ going to declare rape threads - or, more properly, I had dodgy sex threads - a man free zone? No.

So less of the "poor man, you wouldn't understand" schtick. You patronise me, you patronise every woman who hasn't been raped.

You have formed a view of how events should be interpreted.

Unless we accept divine revelation -it's your view. Not gospel. Live with the fact others see things differently.

emmy - other women on this thread have been raped and believe the Op was raped

So, we believe them rather than the OP; oh, for pity's sake...

See I disagree totally 100% I do think some people say no in a coy oh we shouldn't kind of way, but then proceed to strip, kiss and join in. So how is a bloke supposed to know in that instance you have changed your mind?

If you are going along with it, and touching and kissing back, how are they supposed to know?

I don't agree at all with men proceeding in that way, I think he's a cock of the higest order. I don't think anyone on this thread can accuse this man of rape, when they don't know the half of it. A jury would struggle to convict in a rape case, but the MN jury have him convicted in 2 seconds flat.

This is a real man here that people are convicting of rape, it's just wrong. When you have one side of the story. Trying to convince op she was raped and he is a rapist is not on. If she does not feel that, she does not feel that. If she does in time, let her come to that conclusion. But she has repeatedly said she does not feel that way.

emmyloopsylou you dislike the "victim" tag. So does everyone, it intensifies feelings of helplessness. That is why people are often in denial. You have found a way in your mind to accept that you were raped and yet not see yourself as a victim. Rape is a crime and crimes have victims.... I can't understand that, but if it works for you then I am genuinely happy for you. You have found a way forward, OP needs to find her own way forward, that may be to deny she was raped or accept that she was a victim of rape, come to terms with it and resolve never to be a victim again.
Whatever way, this thread is not going to help her. I hope you're ok OP. Thinking of you.

OFC I was a victim, key workd was. Not anymore.

I feel there is an awful lot of projection from people in this thread who still struggle (understandably) with things that have happened to them.

It's pretty disgusting tbh, that so many women seem hell bent on convincing op she was raped, when she says she wasn't, she says she dosen't feel like she was.

People should stop projecting their own experiences onto her, trying to convinve her something may, or may not have happened and let her work it out.

"See I disagree totally 100% I do think some people say no in a coy oh we shouldn't kind of way, but then proceed to strip, kiss and join in."

Yes, that happens. It isn't what happened to h20 though, is it.

"So how is a bloke supposed to know in that instance you have changed your mind? If you are going along with it, and touching and kissing back, how are they supposed to know?"

But most men aren't stupid, they don't lose all powers of reason, empathy, all ability to read other people in the way they do with no problems the rest of the time the moment they get an erection, do they? I should think it's pretty obvious if someone isn't into it, if someone isn't enjoying it. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between 'enthusiastically joining in' and 'reluctantly/fearfully/hesitantly going through the motions having previously said no'. Similarly saying "ooh no, we shouldn't" in a coy way is very different to saying "no, I'm not interested" in a matter of fact way. I'm sure the vast majority of people could tell the difference. Consent is made out to be some kind of incredibly tricky grey area (and yes, it is in court) but in practice, it's very rarely tricky. Where on earth did this idea come from that men find it so incredibly difficult to tell the difference?

I hope the OP finds some peace of mind too and can rise above the many thoughtless, ignorant and downright offensive comments on here.

Don't blame her for not coming back - I wouldn't either in her shoes.

'OP needs to find her own way forward, that may be to deny she was raped or accept that she was a victim of rape, come to terms with it and resolve never to be a victim again'

Dear god,will you just re read all of the op's posts and digest her words.

She states she was NOT raped.

And not all women (and men) who've been raped and assaulted see themselves as victims.

Some of us have worked through the trauma and destruction and class ourselves as SURVIVORS not VICTIMS.

Again people just don't get it do they. It's all in the written word, it's hard to express the moment and expression in writing.

You only have ops account, no-one was there, no one knows how anything was said in reality.

Some said yes sounds like this to me, other interpreted op's written words differently, See what I mean.

I am genuinely horrified so many women can label this guy a rapist on such grounds and seem hell bent on convinving op it was rape, like they want her to face this realisation of trauma or something. When she is insistent she wasn't, why can't some accept that as her pov, even if it is a "coping" strategy. Why are people so wanting the op to face the fact she was raped, when she says she wasn't? It's so fucked up.

I can see this is hitting a brick wall though as per nn.

Most men are not stupid and most men are not rapists, either. I reckon the bloke H20 encountered is a rapist, all right. I bet he's done it before and will do it again, because he doesn't care whether or not a woman consents, and blokes like this quite often will hold a woman down and keep on fucking even if she has said no.
With regard to non-consensual sex there is a bit of a grey area which is to rape what high-pressure dodgy sales tactics are to outright robbery - immoral unethical horrible behaviour which basically makes a conscious choice to use a person's good manners and good nature against them.
People who treat other people like this have a radar for those who are a bit less than assertive, who won't want to make a fuss, who will find it hard to believe that the smiling charm hides a genuine predator.
As it happens, people quite often treat the victim of a high-pressure sales person in a similar way to a victim of this type of sexual predator - 'you let the person in your house, you gave him a cup of tea, why didn't you just say no, or shout and scream, or push the person out of the house, or threaten to call the police'?
I think that this victim-blaming is another variant on the usual stupid-person magical thinking - 'it won't happen to me because I am tough and clever, and I would scream and fight and not get into such a situation; as long as I keep telling the victim it was her fault and can think of her as someone bad and stupid who deserved it, that fact that it won't/can't happen to me will remain true.'