My father (married 25 years) frequently "secretly" using gay porn

[TotallyFrozen]

Hi all, I am so grateful for the name change feature on this. I am posting here because hopefully there are many women on here who would be in a similar-length marriage to my mother and it is her welfare that I am concerned about here. Sorry this will be long-ish.

In a nutshell: My father is an unlikeable and difficult person. He rarely helps around the house, usually disagrees with whatever is said seemingly for the sake of being difficult, gets very angry and defensive if anyone criticises him (screams, makes threats towards you, threatens to leave), and spends his days rotating between sleeping, eating, watching TV, and using the computer. Unfortunately the feeling that I and my sibling have towards him is contempt, even though we wish we could have a good relationship with him. He has some good points (financial contributions, nice towards our pets). He has a history of falling out with others but always blames them, and has few friends or people he gets along with. The "narcissistic personality disorder" description rings very true for him (and I say this as someone who works in the mental health field). This description is basically "the tip of the iceberg".

My mother, whilst an imperfect human like all of us, is a kind and caring woman who is very selfless and giving.

The problem: My father is constantly looking up gay porn on the home computer. He has been doing this for probably 13 years, though my sibling and I only became certain of it around 2-3 years ago. Previously we attributed things we found (videos/ pictures hidden away in folders, constant viruses on the computer, etc.) to viruses, etc. He has been doing this since we were both children. Once we realised what was happening, we decided to install K9 (a child internet protection program) on all our home computers to at least stop the behaviour in the house. I know that there may be an argument against trying to control someone's use of porn but considering his horrible behaviour at home, we felt that it was awful of him to disrespect my mum in her home in this way whilst using her for her domestic services. I am OK with being criticised for this decision and would be interested in differing perspectives. My mum is not very good with technology and has no inkling of his behaviour. He thinks he is hiding his tracks, but he is not as good as he thinks he is with technology either.

Anyway, increasingly I am realising that installing programs that prevent him from accessing these sites constantly (i.e., every night once everyone has gone to bed, during the day when no-one is behind him) is only addressing a symptom rather than the core problem. He is now searching for images on Google images and on social networking type-sites which the internet protection program cannot block without blocking ALL such sites. It really angers me that he uses and puts down my mum during the day, then goes behind her back and does this most nights. My post is prompted by the fact that he did this last night and didn't even bother trying to cover his tracks by deleting his history. Is he WANTING to be discovered? Initially I was shocked finding this out, but I've now had 3 years to become semi-desensitised to it all.

My mum describes him as "a good man, though he has his problems" and has spoken in the past about how she is happy to be part of a couple and be financially secure. Most of his behaviour, she has learnt to "let go", because he gets so nasty when criticised. It is like we all tiptoe around him. They have been married around 25 years. I'm quite sure they have no sex life anymore (I say this because he sometimes goes off for "massages" twice a week or so - they seemed legitimate but I'm aware that gay porn might not be all that he's seeking out and I wouldn't want my mum's health at risk).

My question is: What do I do? His seeking out of gay porn is pervasive and frequent; before I put K9 on our computers he was doing it constantly and just minimising the screen when someone would walk past. I haven't brought up the topic, just passive-aggressively installed K9 and refused to remove it when he asked me to. We got some new computers and he installed K9 first so he could have control over what he viewed, and was watching all the porn again. Luckily I was able to hack into it, uninstall it, and put in a new version of K9 that I have control over. It is like this ridiculous passive-aggressive dance back and forth between us; however I do not feel it is my right to potentially destroy my parents' marriage by publicising what's going on.

I'm basically wondering, from women in long marriages, what you would want if this were your husband, and what issues might be important for me to consider? Should I remain quiet, talk to my father privately, tell my mum - what?

It is has nothing to do with the gender of the porn- it's a basic question of boundaries. I would say the same to a 'friend' of a woman who had discovered hetero porn. Basically- it is Not Your Business.

If the wife feels bothered, she needs to find her own support network. Otherwise, it is not for the adult children to get involved.

The gay thing is the last thing you might think of if you're married to someone miserable and narcissistic and inclined to blame you for every little thing that goes wrong, and even pick holes in things that go right. The comprehensive nature of the deceit involved makes it a very unlikely thing to suspect.

It is 100% TotallyFrozen's business -- if she's anything like my DD she will want to know if she is part of the same beard her mother is, the white picket fence image that her father has presented to the world. The child of a closeted gay man has been part of the lie he has been telling the world. This makes it her business.

Even with the bi-weekly massages and presumable lack of sex? It would have occurred to me. I do respect your perspective though, mathanxiety, and think it's valuable. I just don't think all this is for the OP to police.

Hello everyone and thank you for your posts from when I last checked. Reading some of this criticism is hurtful but at the same time some of it is valid (e.g., the fact that I am living in the family home and being supported financially in some ways, and should appreciate that - I am aware of this, which is why I contribute in every way I can and have also said nothing about my dad's behaviour for three years. However when he keeps leaving "evidence" about, it becomes increasingly difficult to not say anything and makes me wonder if he wants someone to say something - or just thinks me and my sibling are too stupid to notice). I would absolutely love to not be here at home. Soon enough, I will be able to act on that.

I really appreciate those who have said something in my defense, or who have provided thoughtful and caring responses. (I started to list all your names but there are too many!) I didn't realise I hadn't made my gender clear, but to be honest I prefer it that way because I REALLY don't want this issue to become more identifiable. It is much more important to me to keep this as anonymous as possible, than to justify myself on the internet and provide more personal details. I have read these boards quite a bit and for instance, saw a thread where a user's real-life identity was posted by another user because too much about her was given away, and someone even rang the hospital she was staying at (RB). I don't think anything like that would happen in this case, obviously, but what's written on the internet stays on the internet forever, and people are good at making links. My hope in posting was not to find out what people think/ guess about me based on the small amount I've written, but to find out what people think is best for my mum, hopefully from people who might have had similar experiences. And I have received plenty of advice in that regard - thank you.

Two things I will address, though, is that first, the things I have written are all true. There is no point pretending about certain things to make myself "look better" to people who I don't know (e.g., pretending that I don't have personal technological equipment that I can use instead of the family computer, to try to "strengthen my case"). If I had my own laptop/ iPhone, that would be a way of being able to step back from this and have some breathing space. But I don't. I'd rather get advice based on the reality of the situation.

Second, please remember the sequence of events here: I did not install spyware on the home computer, therefore leading to my discovery of my dad's habits. When my sibling and I realised what was happening, my sibling mentioned that during primary school, they had found a folder full of gay porn videos (on the family computer). They assumed it was due to a virus and deleted the folder. When I realised what was happening, a few years ago, it was because my dad deleted the webpage he'd been looking at from the history files, in front of me. If he hasn't deleted the history properly, which is often, when I click on the "open internet" button, a list of recent frequently viewed sites pops up, which yesterday included those sites he visits (prompting my initial post). When I type in a web address that begins with the same letter as one of his sites, the name of his website pops up. When I open a new tab, frequently viewed sites pop up, again including his websites. Once, I came on to the computer to find one of his "favourite" sites minimised, on the toolbar. To be honest, if he had the respect for the rest of the family to actually properly cover his tracks, it would be less upsetting (hopefully then I wouldn't even know about it). But the viewing of these sites became more and more frequent to the point where whenever we walked past the door of the computer room, he would be clicking windows down, often not fast enough (so we saw what he was doing).

In the context of the rest of his behaviour - the contempt for my mum, the lack of contribution to the housework, the shouting at us, the lashing out when he is criticised for things as small as leaving a bag of his rubbish/ food scraps on the floor or in the sink for days (which he does frequently), I felt that the added disrespect to my mum of looking at these sites throughout the day and late into the night was extremely upsetting. One day I was very upset about this and confided in my partner for the first time; my partner is quite technology-savvy. My partner suggested installing K9 to at least reduce the frequency of my dad doing this. I thought this was a good idea and still stand by this decision, despite all the criticism about that. K9 blocks sites, it's not a keylogging or spyware-type program, I don't monitor what my dad is doing, all that I know about what he is doing is due to his carelessness or contempt towards the other computer-users in the house. I also struggle with the number of posters leaping to defend my dad and think that if you knew him in real life you might feel differently towards him. Certainly in his real life he leaves a trail of work and personal relationship breakdowns in his wake, and thinks it's the world with the problem. I really don't think the way he's going about all of this is "right" - technically it might be his right to behave in this way, in that it's not illegal, but it's also not considerate of anyone else in the household and it is hurtful towards my mum. My mum is well-educated and has a life outside the home, but she just barely uses the computer, and sticks to the computer that she likes to use, whereas he uses the other one (which is further from their bedroom/ the areas where she likes to spend her time - probably not a coincidence). I imagine there are a lot of women like my mum in the world - but by their nature, they're probably not on Mumsnet!

In the context of all that I've written, I really do identify with this quote:

DD1 found the evidence of exH's amorous activities with a man on our communal home computer thanks to exH's arrogant belief that he was much smarter than anyone else in the household when it came to computers. His total disregard for boundaries was clear to me when I sat down one day and moved the mouse, only to find what he had been up to. A man who leaves porn basically out in the open on a shared computer for his children to find is a man who is deeply hostile and self centered, has no boundaries and no respect for his children, and does not value his relationships with any of his family members.

Maybe some of you can relate to this, but my father is very difficult to live with. If he gets so angry about being asked to pick up after himself or contribute to the housework (to the point where last time he erupted, screaming, verbally abusing my mum, threatening to leave if the topic is ever brought up again), then how on earth would he react to me bringing up such a deeply personal and embarrassing topic? I am not exaggerating when I say that there is a risk he could react in a totally unpredictable and violent way. I really don't want to risk that. My experience of him is that he's not open to calm, reasoned discussion - he gets defensive and blows up at anything that hints towards criticism of him. On the other hand, if I raise the issue with my mum for the sake of giving her the right to make her own informed choices about her life (and yes there are people here who have said it's none of my business to do so), and she puts up with so much already, then who is to say she won't put up with this too? Leading to, as another poster said, only bad things for my relationship with her - embarrassment, added hurt, shame for her maybe... and the possibility that nothing would change. He is who he is and I really don't think confrontation would change a thing. Hence the "walking on eggshells" atmosphere around him.

This is obviously such a contentious issue and brings out opinions that are passionately for or against me doing anything. Even though I still feel like I have no idea what the right thing to do is, before making this post both my sibling and I had searched on the internet for what would be the best thing to do in this situation, and there really is little advice out there, beyond a few articles. So I am glad that this is now out there for other children/ adult children going through the same thing. I am erring towards saying nothing and moving out ASAP, like RealName's friend did, even though I feel absolutely terrible about that (for my mum). It is all a lot easier to deal with when you're not in the atmosphere, and due to my course and other things I do, I often am not there, and maybe it's the fact that I'm around more often due to the time of year that this is feeling so unbearable.

My reason for thinking that saying nothing might be the best way to go is that I drew up a list of pros and cons yesterday to try to settle my mind. The absolutely horrible possible scenarios if I said something would be:

1. Uncontrollable angry reaction from him.
2. Divorce and him leading a very lonely life (few friends, few family members who tolerate him - yes he's not the perfect father but I don't hate him, I would feel really bad about causing that).
3. He may start engaging in real-world behaviour if he hasn't already, possibly leading to risks for him.
4. He and my mum would each be half as well-off financially as they were before.

On the other hand, if I say nothing, the one absolutely horrible possible scenario that I can think of is that if he is currently engaging in real-life behaviours, my mum's health may already be at risk. That is a really awful reality for me. The only way I can dismiss that is by telling myself that he is not doing anything beyond the internet. But there is real-life evidence that POSSIBLY - not definitively - suggests otherwise. I know about the massages and the "solo nights out" because he mentions them, by the way.

So anyway... I feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't with this whole situation. And I know this is a massive post, but this is a real-life situation with lots of implications that I did not ask to be pulled into.

It took me a long time to write that post and in the meantime more posters have responded. Thanks ilythia and mathanxiety, so sorry to talk about this issue that is "close to home", it is upsetting but the idea of just "staying quiet" forever seems pretty unbearable too. I don't want to behave like a "bad person" in this scenario and it seems like there a vastly opposing opinions in terms of what that would mean.

I don't really know what to suggest at this point, but I would like to say that I sincerely wish you good luck and hope you find a way through this- I appreciate that it's not as simple as any quick summary can convey.

Thanks very much, BitOfFun.

I so feel for you. I still think you should tell your mother. There is a chance she has no clue, and that's what I would find hard to live with, knowing when she didn't.

Lots of women on here, on finding their husbands have had long affairs, feel most wiped out at the not knowing. They cannot believe they didn't see the signs, and worse, when others knew and said nothing.

I don't think it needs to be said in a huge deal kind of way. I don't know your mum, obviously, but if it were possible I might try to say in a casual way that I was surprised by the sites I'd discovered dad browsing. She may ask further, she may not, but you have at least gave her an in.

I realise how hard this is, you didn't choose to be party to this and a lot of posters think you should leave well alone. All we can ever do is out best, and follow our instincts in matters like this. I know what mine tells me, but that's easy as it relates to people I know.

I wonder if your father wants to be found out?

Long thread and it's late at night, but I just want to agree with perfumed's suggestion that you 'hint' to your mother about what your father has been looking at on the net. See if she takes up the hint. You might then get a clue on how to next approach the subject with her (if at all).

If I were you I wouldn't bring it up with him at all - from your posts I don't think you would anyway. I can't see any good coming from that angle at all.

I hope it all works out for you. I would try working out how to move out asap; that's probably going to be the healthiest solution for you. This has been going on for so long that there is a good chance your mum does have an inkling anyway. He's not hiding it very well, but with your mum's technological not-very-savvy-ness (sorry, am a bit tipsy!) - then he won't expect her to find out about his internet interests; he has a medical reason for the massages so they may be innocent; going to plays and suchlike may very well be innocent. I actually used to go out with someone whose father did those last two things, and he was suspicious that his father had homosexual tendencies as well - in fact your whole situation sounds almost exactly the same as my ex's (you're not a twin, are you?!) - this was before the web really took off so that wasn't an issue!

For your own sanity, try not to overthink it - hopefully your mother isn't actively unhappy? Do you think perhaps things might just continue as they are without any disaster or hurt? I'm sorry if I sound naive, I am about to go to bed and may not have taken in all the nuances of the situation.

All the best to you and yours x

Mathanxiety,

I am arguing for parental respect and people's right to privacy, nothing to do with privilege or the patriarchy (the one lens which always distorts your otherwise intelligent posts). The OP could be a man and some here have speculated that he/she is. In addition, the argument would not have changed if it had been a man and his mother.

You obviously (as you have explained) have some history here. I do think that your daughter should not have read any of her father's love letters, though I agree it is easier said than done. Where I really take issue with you is your use of "come across". If you look at the history file on SOMEONE ELSE's computer, you are snooping. It is as simple as that. There is no reason to open it at all.

OP
has it ever occured to you that your mother may have made a "deal" with your father? The deal would be she would ignore his possible sexual preferences and the emotional abuse as long as he provided for her.

There is absolutely no way that you should talk to her.

If you want to talk to anyone then talk to your father- it is his behaviour that you have the problem with.

I suspect you do not want to because you are frightened of him, and you possibly want to drive a wedge between him and your mother, siding with her.

It really is not your role.

The emotional abuse you talk of is subjective- it may be nothing more than the usual family arguments when one partner is bad tempered.

In any case, meddling in other people's marriages is never right- even, or especially, if they are your parents and you live with them for convenience.

Oh I am so glad you came back totally frozen!

It is awful to be afraid of your father. I can understand that to some extent - my dad, though I love him terribly, is extremely childish and volatile. I am not frightened of him anymore but unfortunately because his relationship currency is fear he is pretty intimidated by me pretty often now just because I now stand up for myself.

Do you think maybe both you and your brother could speak to him together for your protection or might this only antagonise him more? Maybe tell your partner what you are doing and have him wait upstairs just in case? I think anyone who behaves in such a negative way in his relationships with the people closest to him normally has a reason. This reason doesn't excuse terrible negative behaviour from him but it is the key to changing the behaviour by tackling the problem at its source. Don't think for a minute that difficulty entitles him to be a bully, it is a behaviour that must be changed. I always find trying to be sympathetic and understanding is more helpful than trying to be confrontational or controlling though which is why I am posting the suggestions I am.

Has he been violent with you before?

I do think you would need to find out more than you have now if you are going to tell your mum. He could easily just deny the porn and blame it all on you if you mention it to your mum at this stage.

TF
I posted before Ihad read your recent post.

I am sure now you are male.

I think you have to behonest with yourself. This is not just about your mum's safety, it is also about you being angry with your father for what he IS.

You are upset about his sexuality and you do not approve of his behaviour. You don't like/love your father. You also think your mum has got a raw deal from the marriage.

Sticking my neck out- I think you need a rude awakening.

You are controlling*. You are trying to control another adult because you do not approve of their behaviour.

*You are meddling with something that is not yours to meddle with.

*You are censoring your father's behaviour. (because you are homophobic, or because you have similar repressed leanings even? Only you know.)

You have involved both your "partner" and your sibling to help try to control another adult's behaviour whilst you live in their* home.

*You say this is to try to protect your mum - possibly from STDs. well your mum is an adult. Plenty of families have knowledge that a parent is being unfaithful but they don't tell. You discredit your mum if you think she is blind to this.

Those posters who advise you to tell because they had wished they had been- well, that's not the same at all. They were not meaning by an adult child in the same house, I bet.

I do have every sympathy with your situation but you are way out of line- confusing your own disappointment and disapproval of your father etc with a need to protect your mother.

Step away- you are far too involved .

sorry- the bold was a typing mistake. Don't know what happened there!

Cabbageroses - I think your last post is awful. You have made so many assumptions, judgements and unhelpful unnecessary criticisms and frankly I think they say way more about you than they do about OP (makes you seem obsessively paranoid about keeping your own privacy from your own grown up children - understandable) with respect I think perhaps you should step away from this thread for your own sanity and to protect the OP's clearly sensitive feelings but obviously that is quite genuinely up to you.

Larrygrylls I'm finding your posts on here infuriating.

The op has already stated many times that her father is using the family computer. The computer that he is well aware the rest of the family use. She has also said that the names of his frequently used sites pop up, and that they come up when she types a different address with the same first letter into the search bar. Also that he minimises the screen when he is looking at this porn, often too late for it not to be seen when someone walks past.

She/he is not snooping. He is practically showing her what he is doing, which is horrible and deeply unsettling. This is his child!

Also Cabbageroses, the emotional abuse the op speaks of is not subjective at all. I work in domestic abuse service provision and so feel I can say with some authority that verbal abuse, screaming, and threats to leave when simply asked to pick up his own rubbish, therefore creating a fear of violence in the rest of his family are not normal or ok behaviours that can be dismissed by saying that he simply has a bad temper. They are the bullying and controlling behaviours of a domestic abuser.

This man is basically leaving porn lying around for his children to see, and terrorising his entire family.

I am extremely concerned by the op's posts as I think it a very real possibility that if confronted, or if faced with any real change in the dynamics of this situation, this man could very easily decide to use physical violence in order to maintain his position of dominance and control over the family.

Op you are not responsible for your fathers behaviour, no matter what course of action you decide to take. Neither are you responsible for your mother. I realise it must be terribly painful for you to see her being treated like this, but ultimately she is her own woman with her own choices to make. You can support her though of course. Have you considered broaching the subject of an organisation like Women's Aid to her? What you are describing is domestic abuse. It is unnacceptable, no matter what your fathers personal demons may be.

curious- quite frankly,you are out of order.
Just because you hapen to disagree with my posts does not give you the right to tell me that I should leave the thread. I shall post what I want when I want.

FWIW I think you should step away from the thread- if you want to play that game. Your post encouraging the OP to talk about this etc is completely irresponsible.
I don't retreact a single thing I said.

The more they say, the bigger the hole they dig for themselves frankly.

If he/she doesn't like seeing porn on the family pc then they ought to say to the father, instead of scouring the web for instances of this type of behaviour in the hope of finding a solution.

I don't know why the rest of you cannot see this for what it so clearly is- a child who despises their father and feels the only way to exert some control orpower is to shop his behaviour to the other parent.

I also do not believe that anyone doing a masters does not have their own pc. or access to a computer at uni. I work in academia and have 2 DCs who have done masters.

MYODD - yes, I agree with you in principle that he may well react violently and the OP should think very carefully about the possibility of that and trust his/her instincts/take sensible precautions/not do it at all.

That said I dont entirely disagree with the point that we haven't established whether the dad is actually emotionally abusive or grumpy and actually I dont think it matters - that is actually for the OP to decide and nothing to do with us. If she feels it is abuse then that is what it is. It is likely that it is abuse if he has a big issue with repressed sexuality.

My parents are horrified that I feel abused by them... I should be on the "but we took you to stately homes" thread(!) They make excuses, laugh things off, think I am dramatic and exaggerating, my siblings do not believe they said or did certain things. We all are very comfortable in our positions and honest about what we feel now - I have given myself permission to feel as though I grew up in a toxic environment whether or not they believe it. A certain amount of negative abusive behaviour is very common in familial relationships and it always needs to be tackled in some way when it occurs either by working to confront and change the behaviour or by withdrawing from the relationship if it is unsafe to tackle the behaviour.

Gah, clearly we are all influenced by our own rl experience - OP I do think really you need to trust your own feelings about this more than any advice.

Cabbagroses - I don't disagree with some of your sentiments about privacy within relationships and I didn't tell you to leave the thread. I feel the way you are posting is excessively judgemental and you are extrapolating assumptions you have made to a ridiculous degree which is very confrontational, unnecessary, insulting and rude not to mention that it is absolutely impossible to know any of the things you suggest based on what we have been told and therefore totally inapropriate to get so wound up about things which are so completely assumed and imagined. I suggested on the basis of me feeling that that you may want to leave the thread which is upsetting you and your comments attacking the OP but also said that it was up to you whether you wanted to or not. If you want to read things that are not there into what I have said that is up to you.

Curious- okay points taken.

However, everyone/most people who post here extrapolate.

I don't think I was being rude; I was being brutally frank which is what I think the OP needs a taste of.

My sanity is quite under control thanks, and is not in danger of being affected by someone's post on MN!

I think that some posters here have lost a sense of perspective about the OP's behaviour- though that of course is purely my opinion.

For an adult "child" to put nanny controls on their father's/family pc, be judgemental about the father's behaviour, and be making it clear they have a very low opinion of them, is not really admirable behaviour.

To dress this up as as attempt to protect their mother from her DH's behaviour, is not good IMO.

it shows a certain naivity and TBH I think they would bebetter off talking to a group of their peers for advice on how to live at home when things are difficult. That really is the essence of it. Being a "gooseberry" in another couple's marriage ( even if they are your parents) is not right.

a forum like [www.thestudentroom.co.uk]] might be helpful.

PM#d you frozen.

FWIW if you have an abusive parent confronting them is not a good idea.

Cabbageroses - I knew it. Your view of this whole situation is led by your assumption of excessive judgmental on the part of the op. Your disapproval of that informs every word, despite your earlier denial. The homosexuality is no excuse however for appalling domestic abuse the father is inflicting on the family. You have grown a.little world of assumptions around your disapproval - that the abuse is subjective, that the efforts. To protect the mother are somehow fake etc. These are things you have imagined or invented. Your "advice" is based on these random imaginings and is utterly worthless. I would really take a breath, take stock and examine what is really motivating you here.

I've read the whole thread and have to agree with Curious where Cabbageroses' posts are concerned.

OP, you said earlier it was almost as if your father wanted to be caught. In that case, your father may on some level be trying to put you in the position of upsetting the family applecart. Please think carefully about whether that is true and if so, what responding to it would mean. Are you falling into a trap where you will be the scapegoat for the family fall-out and your father will get to be free, or even get rid of your from the family home?

I agree with someone who posted earlier to say that his aggression and abuse is the bigger problem. If anything, perhaps gently invite your mother to talk to you or someone outside the home about that, or ask her advice on how you can deal with it.

Appletrees- I really understand very little of your post due to the poor grammar etc.

I also think you are singling me out rather unfairly as furhter back in this thread, many other people have said the same things.

The OP asked for a response from women in long marriages and what would they advise.
i have answered that.

What my breath is taken away by is the lack of outrage by some of you at an adult-child putting k9 on their father's pc, and trying to control what he does.

Additionally, the other points I made were suggestions.

I am truly astonished at how some people here cannot see this for what it is .

The OP needs help- but that help should be about distancing themselves from her/his parents' lives.