unsure where to go with daughter

[Mummiehunnie]

I am a single parent and the youngest has always been hard work, this has been noticed by everyone who has seen her in action, it was always worse with me than with her father however she was the same with him when he was around. He is the most controlling person going and he could not control her either! She is good at school! I took her with the ex a few months before he left to see the gp to get a referral nothing happened, I took her privately and asked if she had adhd or something they said as she sat in school she did not... ex blamed her behaviour on me, our other child is normal range of behaviour...

I am sick to the back teeth of being beaten up, I am sick to the back teeth of being a slave to her physically and emotionally... I feel trapped and the situation is bringing me further down...

I have escaped abuse from other people and I feel I am trapped with her, there is no one else around, they were all abusive and would not help anyways, I have begged twice for social services to take her on short term care, they say they would go to the family, if that happened she would just beat me up more...

i am having therapy for the abuse from the past and the therapist knows the situation, she is trying to help me build up my self esteem.

I had a ed psy come for two years to the house, dd would not engage, I worked on myself...

A friend once suggest dd had oppositional disorder, I am worred getting her counselling as I am scared she will say something wrong, for example if you go on the computer once for half an hour when she is watching tv she will say I am on the computer all the time.... and I am worried that someone will believe her. I am also scared as ex told lies about me to the authorities in the past... I feel trapped I know she needs help, I feel if I get her help she will hang me, and I am sick of being hanged for other people's issues...

Have seen the references in your posts to bullying in the school. It seems to me there's a big problem there. The voodoo girl is a new twist on the issue of bullying -- full marks for originality for coming up with that one.

If you think it would help at all, could you bring up the question of bullying with the school?

For your DD, this atmosphere where bullying seems to go unchecked probably brings her right back to life with her father, as you mention she was very afraid of him. It sounds as if she is reliving the atmosphere of fear every day in school -- no wonder she is still acting out. (I think PTSD may well be a factor here for the DD)

I brought it up with the school who have done their best, the thing is with the group thing the head said he had to take it easy so that there would not be repercussions, the class teacher has done a few things so they are good in this school.

The other girls were also bullying another girl and the voodoo doll girl was getting everyone to put pins in the doll for a boy, the group were bullying the voodoo doll girl. I am thinking about what to do re voodoo doll girl, I want dd to tell the teacher herself, and stand up for herself as she does not want me to speak to the school and I think she should deal with this herself! I must look up on the internet for now ptsd in children, feel foolish that I did not think it could be happening to her poor love!

What is sad is she was best friends with voodoo doll girl, until I one day said no to voodoo doll girl when she asked after school to come over there and then, after that she got nasty to dd and joined the gang of girls who then kept trying to get to dd, who did brilliantly in not engaging, eventually as I said voodoo doll girl and the other girl both complained of the group bullying them! There are some other nice girls in the class, dd plays with them, however voodoo doll girl has now gone for one of them that dd was getting friendly with after having gone to her house, where voodoo doll girl was also with others, voodoo doll girl beat the hell out of another girl there and made her nose bleed the others were scared of voodoo doll girl after that, this week she has been squashing between dd and that girl and today the girl was not nice to dd, not sure what went on, dd thinks voodoo doll girl has been spreading lies to other girl who knows! it just seems to never end these problems and issues! I have had to deal with it on my own with no one to bounce off for a long long time now, and it gets a bit much as every time I think things are settled, a week or so something else will come up!

I had a look and if dd did get ptsd as has been suggested from her first bath and from swimming lessons at four months old then she would have shown a lot more symptoms than seperation anxiety and she did not show any of the symptoms they listed on the site I looked on!

MH, I can't respond to your speecific issue and haven't read the whole thread yet ... I'm very sorry you're going through this. Also, I feel sure that DD will find herself as you do. All of you have been through some dreadful times. Children interpret situations with childish logic, as you've said. They also respond very quickly to a parent who is responding to therapy, as you are. She's lucky that you're gaining so much in wisdom & emotional strength - I bet she will start to appreciate this before long. I just hope that happens before her hormones go crazy! (For your sake as well as hers.)

I wanted to tell you about one of my nephews. He was labelled the difficult one, was bullied inside and outside the home, and was expected to be more mature than he could be, at any given age. Eventually his parents obtained a diagnosis of dyspraxia, after the school had labelled him with ODD. The school provided access to support mechanisms for him. He found the school's 'quiet room' service very reassuring and began to gain confidence.

In his late teens he began fitting. He's epileptic. Now he takes medication, has regular checkups and is in control of his condition and his life. Nobody can know whether there's any connection between early abuse and his present condition, however it seems possible he was, indeed, 'different' though not in the ways everybody assumed!

I thought that, perhaps, your DD2 may also be 'different' - which doesn't mean worse by any measure, but can make it even harder for a child to adjust to major life changes. Does she see herself as different; can she express what makes her special?

And while we're at it, my love, can you express what makes you special?

Oh no, PTSD would not be from the bath or from the swimming, but from constantly living in the atmosphere where she was afraid of her father and where she may have picked up the general tension of the household.

My DD3 was a 'difficult' baby, very high gear, very demanding, very inclined to scream for hours, very hard to settle, and continued to be 'difficult' through her early childhood. She is a much more relaxed person now that her father no longer lives with us but she went through a phase where she was very cutting with others for a while, had sleep disturbances (sleep walking, insomnia, lots and lots of talking in her sleep, pretty withdrawn in school). I call her my little barometer as she senses 'atmospheric conditions' so accurately. Maybe your DD is just as sensitive? Some people sense the general atmosphere very strongly and have a strong response.

dd1 was a hard work baby, and then quite normal range of things, dd2 was a lovely easy baby (apart from swimming) and got to toddler stage and seemed to stay there in n that angry stage, she was actually the golden child to her father his fav and he was hers, his family adored her too, she used to get enraged that they did not treat her and her sister the same, dd1 used to grivatate towards me when father was about, the tension was very very low grade until the few months before ex left, and he was not living in the house when it was very bad! The bits that were wrong was I put myself in lower rank as did he, and he was in control of the house when he was around, he was at work long hous so was really only around at weekends! he also two or three times a year would go off on business trips which I used to ask (as he could take most as and when it suited him) to be during half term so that we were free, as if I was not back in time for him home from work, he would ring in a panic and it put pressure on me if he was at work and we could do what we wanted and I did not have to think of him and dinner for him etc... I was one of the few women I knew who did not mind him having a business trip, I remember one freind in particular had to have someone around every night her dh was away, not me, I loved going out and doing things and coming back when it suited me!

Grace thanks for sharing the exerience of your nephew! She told me that when she spoke to the head master not long ago, he said he observed that dd was quite anxious about things would not worry about, dd has taken this to heart and realises that is the case, however she then does not worry about thigns others do, for example she has noted she is not bothered by sats where as peers are, maybe that is because I always told her and ds that sats are for the school not the children and not to worry! who know! I don't think she thinks she is different, she has not said so!

DD has spoken tonight about voodoo doll girl, and told me certain things about the girl that are not right, one thing she touched on was that voodoo girl would walk off when there was some difficult work or work she was not interested in and leave it to dd to do when they were working in pairs, that particular bit i jumped on and said that was how she was too, dd said I know I am trying to sort that out, so there is progress.... she reassured herself that these things are voodoo doll girls issues, and said she wanted to cry so many times today due to voodoo girl, but would not let her see, dd does not want to tell teacher, she said she will do her best to not let voodoo girl know she is upset, dd said she is worried she will have to partner at school now if things progress, with the boy who can't speak properly and is hard to understand, who from the sounds of it comes from a family that don't have english as a first language and is struggling with english! she has always been one to share her worries with me, which I know voodoo girl can't do with her mother so that must be good!

oh I really hope things settle down again and that this is over, I am sick to the back teeth of it all!

dd said I know I am trying to sort that out

FANTASTIC!!! Well done, all of you.

You know, mh, your voodoo story has reminded me of something that happened at my school! All of a sudden there was a voodoo craze in my class. We all had dolls and huddled in groups to name them & stick pins in them. We also had a lively debate in RE about whether curses can hurt you (answer: curses work through psychology so, if you don't believe in them, they can't hurt). I am now wondering if this craze was a clever teacher's response to a similar bullying child? Maybe you could get all the other kids round yours for a Saturday morning doll-making session!

I don't know if that's actually a good idea, but I like the thought of it

When dd told me about the voodoo doll I explained that it was brought in and deomonstrated to class and her telling them she needed hair so that she was giving the doll power! I don't understand why shops sell them, why a parent would buy one for a child and teach the child to use it! I explained that her getting everyone to put a pin in for that boy the first day was to show them all the power of the doll which she has keyring attached to her pencil case at school! I am surprised the teacher does not know about it, and if she does to allow it!

I think the other parents would be alarmed if I invited their daughters around to make voodoo dolls at mine personally, get the logic in it Grace! I am soooo not into black magic etc...

Mummiehunnie, when you mentioned that your DD was the golden child and the other DD was obviously not treated in the same way, I wondered if your ex is a narcissist, as this is how a narcissist parents. It does a number on a child to be treated like this, as the golden child knows her preferential treatment is very conditional but never knows the conditions or when the wind will change suddenly.

The golden child represents for the narcissist parent the idealised image of the N's mother or father - the parent reverses roles, and this mind game can be very hard to recover from. The child has no feeling of security at all, feels she has no real parent, knows she has a role instead, tries to play it and earn love -- tragic.

The rest of your description of life with your ex says Narcissist to me too, especially your relief and feeling of freedom when he wasn't around.

I have diagnosed him as so, he has a diagnosis from a psychiatrist (found out by court of a disorder not narcacisim though) I think his mother is too along with his sister no3 who is ten years older then him and next to him in age, she was the golden child followed by him... My father was diagnosed as bipolar, which I understand goes with npd, which I think he has too!

My father was his mothers golden child and I suspect my bro is also, he is with his second wife and mid thirties, her first husband sounds a lot like my ex regarding her children with him, she has a child with my bro, he has live abroad for years!

MH You know, we're only up to 6 pages on this thread and look how you're getting a handle on things!

I would reiterate what I said about making DD feel safe and that her home is her sanctuary. As long as she keeps hearing those words and you keep reinforcing it, then it will sink in. Maybe it will take a couple of years - maybe not. But you will be reinforcing the idea.

I wonder if she is in a round about way, grieving for the loss of her family life as it was before with your ex? I know that it sounds very odd to say that and other posters will correct me if I'm wrong, but the life before was familiar and now it has changed. Does this make sense? Now she may well be feeling anxious because things aren't the same and feeling more vulnerable. In my case (which I know is different) we went to CRUSE bereavement counselling. They may be able to point you in the direction of an organisation which might be more appropriate.

I am not a counsellor/MH expert etc. but I really don't think that your daughter has an MH issue. I think that she is over-sensitive and over-anxious, which is completely understandable given what has happened to her over the years. It will take time for her to settle but you are switched on and not floundering like you seemed to be before, and I think you'll all get through this.

But I have to say that I don't think that sending her away every second weekend is a good idea at all - that will be reinforcing her anxiety. If mobility isn't an issue at the moment, can you take the opportunity of heading off for the day instead of getting cabin fever?

HTH

Hi Leomony, her sister has a party and sleepover this w/e, so I had already said we will do something nice, if she does not sabotage it agin like she tried to last w/e, probably as it is just the two of us she won't! Leommony, I have had to shoulder this for a very long time alone and when I posted this I was kind of at the end of my tether again with it, it goes in cycles like that where I just want a break from her and then things will settle and I will feel ok again, normally i feel ok when her issues settle where as sharing has made things ok this time, so thanks to all that have posted and I will read the posts near the beginning again at some point!

I think in regards to the bullying at school , i would aproach them. This stupid voodoo doll shouldnt be in school and im really surprised the teacher hasnt noticed it.

On occasion with my dcs , they have had a problem and not wanted me to say anything . I have done anyway ,because its not their call .
Ive made it clear i want it dealing with , that the dcs are not to know ive raised it but i want it sorting .

I would say i dont want the voodoo doll in school , why is this girl allowed to wander away from her work leaving your dd to do it ? Id say i want her to be vigilant about fallings and and whisperings / dirty looks ect and that dd is not to know youve said anything . I would do this directly with the class teacher either on the phone or face to face.

The teacher sounds a bit poor to be honest , in a primary school its not hard to pick up on an atmosphere or to spot a child who looks unhappy. Our teacher has often had a random move around and this works well in changing group dynamics , often putting someone like voodoo girl on a table with the boys .

I dont get why the head teacher said what he dis about consequences ?

MH I totally understand. It goes in cycles with my son. It is just something that you have to grit your teeth about. Please don't think I'm preaching or being patronising when I post - I know I sometimes do come across like that. My thoughts as I read your posts and then reply are : "Oh, that happens to me - this is what I do", so please don't think I'm being rude or belittling your problems.

Dignified you are right, I have left a message for the teacher to call me back, they asked what is it about I said voodoo dolls in class! I await a response! I had another chat with dd this morning that voodoo dolls only work if you think they do, she siad she was nervous going into class this morning! I saw voodoo doll's mum this morning, felt like sticking a pin in her for getting that dammed thing and bringing grief to my door!

I think the vast majority of people mean well and want to help, it is for us to take from it what we can, I find it easier at this point in life to do this online strangely than in rl, i can re read other posts over again etc...

She told me that when she spoke to the head master not long ago, he said he observed that dd was quite anxious about things would not worry about, dd has taken this to heart and realises that is the case,

But its not the case at all and he shouldnt have said that to her. He doesnt get to decide what she should and shouldnt be anxious about , and neither does anyone else. Hes blown it off as her problem when its not.

Schools often label a bullied child as " oversensitive / anxious " ect , when really they cant be arsed to deal with the bullys. This could be resolved in a matter of hours , it only requires a vigilant teacher to keep her ears open for snotty remarks and challenge them / a class move around and a word with the lunch staff and playground supervisers to all be alert. Its not hard.

If i was working in this sort of enviroment where i was ignored , bullied , had lies spread about me i dont think i could stand it. Its no differant for kids .

I dont think your dd can deal with this herself or she would have done . The head has already blown her off and decided her feelings arent valid and shes too sensitive.
That was wrong of him and she doesnt have the skills to assert herself with adults , and especially not one in a position of authority.

I think youll have to step in here Mummie , i would make an apointment at the school and sort it . It can be dealt with without any of the kids knowing youve said anything so theres no need to worry about consequences .

I wonder if youll be better to arrange a face to face meeting with her where youve got time to discuss the differant aspects of this and what you want doing. She might think the voodoo doll is the main problem , and its not.

Teachers sometimes make these calls on their break from the staff room . You would then have the opportunity to write down what you want to happen and what they can do to make school more enjoyable.

Do watch out for any remarks about your dd being too sensitive and challenge them if they happen. I would firmly state that i dont think its for them to decide what she should or shouldnt be upset about.

Is there a particular teacher that your dd likes who she could aproach ? It bothers me that this is going on in school and she is not able to tell any of the adults there whats going on.

He said if he went in too hard on the main bullies that it would not work, which I understand, I feel quite unequipped to deal with this, I have done the best I could so far, which is better than what I used to do, I used to be like the third girls mother and let things go too far before, I have been on top of this until this bit, I feel a nag etc I have spoken to teacher and head already, who have dealt with this so much better than other school dealt with anything that came up for dd's! I will mention that the voodoo doll girl bloddied a girls nose the other week at a party, where the kept it quiet, the mother had no idea that had gone on until I told her, she said it was odd as they told her about every other issue, someone had split a drink, someone fell and banged their head, yet they kept the bloody nose quiet and hid it, vooodoo doll girl gave someone a bloody nose, she did it under the guise of play fighting, dd said she was so scared that she hid in the corner of the room, the girl who's party it was acted like it was nothing to her Mum and is the one that voodoo doll girl has possibly said something to!

I feel sick to the stomach dignified... thanks for helping me break this down, what would you say is the main problem then?

A bit of back ground when we joined the school, one mum came to me and told me if there was bullying that all the mum's went in and spoke to the teacher together, I think this may be the crux of the problem, as that very same woman was not nice to dd, because she could not contol dd to share in the cost of the present she wanted to get the teacher at the end of the year, dd wanted to get her own as in last school, I told head who aluded to me that woman has mh issues! DD was told by another boy his mother was disgusted at that woman and told her off at the time, no one apologised to dd for that outragious remark!

I am wondering if the voodoo doll girl is the one who has engineered the group to be horrible to dd, as she has accused another child in the past of doing it, and the teacher labelled another child as being a trouble maker, and now this new girl too it all seems to be the voodoo doll girl what do you think?

Its hard to know what to do isnt it , ive got better with each dc fortunateley , but occasionally i look back on certain incidents and feel really guilty because i know i didnt handle it properly at the time .

There was one particular incidant where my dd was quite badly assaulted , she pleaded with me not to say anything in case it was made worse , and im ashamed to say i didnt. The bully got away with it and my dd was going into school afraid every day.

Schools go out of their way to make you feel like a nag and a over protective mother , and its not on.

The head sounds like a wanker to be honest , in saying that if he went in too hard it wouldnt work. Of course it would if he did it properly . Hes basicly tiptoeing round these bullys and not doing his job properly because he cant be arsed.. Bullys are not be tiptoed round , they need confronting and punishing and the message sent that its not acceptable. Im actually quite annoyed on your behalf.

I would have a chat too with your DD about what to do if ever she is in a situation where she is afraid again. She couldve felt ill and had to come home , or texted you , or needed the loo .

We have a code re phone calls when somethings wrong ie
Kid texts or one rings which means "phone me "
Me - Hi , you ok
Kid - yes yes great ( meaning No )
Me , loudly - you rooms a mess , you need to come home and do it
Kid - Aww , thats not fair
Me - Tough . Get home .

You can engineer a range of scenarios where she can signal to you that somethings wrong , even if its just a phone call about nonsense to just take her out of the intensity of the situation. Mine have me on speed dial and one ring me discrretly if they need to. Ive called back and its been usefull on occasion to give them a distraction or get them out of a situation theyre uncomfortable in.

W If theres further invites with these girls i wouldnt let her go , she can blame you saying your tight or whatever . When kids are bullied they often try to be freinds with the bullies to appease them which drains their confidence even more .

Bullyonline are brilliant for advising you what to do , and so are parentline plus , do ring them if you need someone to talk it over with.

I am not at all surprised the mother is like this . If the parents are loud and bolshy the schools often dont want to deal with them.

My school actually said to me once that " Mrs x can be very volatile , are you sure you want us to raise this as it might cause problems for you in the school yard ".

My take was tough shit , its not my problem to deal with , and that i expected them to make it clear to Mrs x that she discusses it with the school , not me .

My experience is that usually where theres a bully kid theres a bully parent. You might find that the other parents are fully aware of whats going on but are intimidated by her and dont want to complain.

Could you get in touch with any of the parents to see if their children are experiencing the same ?

Did you ever say anything to this woman about being nasty to your dd ? When did this nastyness towards your dd take place , as in , in the school yard ect ?

'Do watch out for any remarks about your dd being too sensitive and challenge them if they happen. I would firmly state that i dont think its for them to decide what she should or shouldnt be upset about.'

This is SO true. The school doesn't sound great at all tbh about the bullying. Sounds as if the head teacher has stuck his head in the sand.