Sunday Night Row - Am i being ridiculous?

[Esme69]

Ok, another sunday night spoiled by a silly disagreement. Help me out here, and give me your opinions.

We have a tv room and also a "good" sitting room in our house. Me and Dh have been using the good room now more at this time of the year as it has a fireplace and we have been lighting the fire a lot.

In this room, instead of a coffee table there is a beautifully and expensively upholstered ottoman which I got done a few years ago. It is not possible to wash or clean this as it is totally upholstered into the wood frame, so if I am putting my feet up on it which I often do, I would always remove my shoes first, and have asked my dh to do the same. Usually he ignores this request until I remind him, or ask him does he want me to put on the loose cover so he can put his fett up without removing shoes but he usually takes off the shoes at that point. The thing is my dh would come in to the house with wet feet, not wipe his feet, never removes dirty shoes before going on to carpet and its one of his pet hates people who excpect you to remove your shoes in their house.

I am not requiring him to do that, just ot not plonk the shoes he has been wearing outside in the wet on this lovely fabric in the nicest room in the house. I dont think this is unreasonable.

Tonight, he stuck the shoes up on the ottoman, I asked him to remove the shoes, normally he would do so, this time he just rolled his eyes and said this was ridiculous and he just wanted to relax in his own house and that if he took off shoes his feet would be cold, FFS in front of a roaring fire, and then he just went ahead and put the feet up shoes and all.

I am PISSED off with him cos even if he thinks I am being silly, he could respect my wishes, not LEAST becuase he messed up our weekend by going out drinking really late with his brother fri nite (till 3am) and came home and passed out in the kitchen, I was awake till he got home and then couldnt sleep for ages after cos he has form on this, and was so tired the next day I could not take my dd to ballet lesson in the next town, and had to look after our dc while he was hungover, AND we were having people to dinner last night and I had loads to do to prepare for that.

This evening he apologised profusely for being a selfish prick and disrupting our saturday and promised to not repeat that. but in those circs i would have thought tonight he might have at least respected my wishes even if he did not agree with them

I feel that he is such a selfish man who really always puts himself first and even when he says sorry never really practically tries to make amends or show his remorse..

This is a bit long and rambling, but feeling really disprespected, i went up to bed early instead of watching a programme we were meant to watch together, i said goodnight but did not kiss him and now he will come up soon and make a big deal out of this, my not kissing him, will say that I a making way to much out of this whole issue and that I am pathetic for reacting like this

Am i?

Shit, do you really think that I have been conditioned to accept abusive behaviour?? I like to think of myself as a nice, but also assertive intelligent individual who would not take shit off anyone, least of all my dh, this is a bit depressing if it turns out that in fact I have been once big doormat all along.....not sure what to think now tbh

Re age, okay that's not an issue, then.

Oops, skimmed posts and missed wall punching thing. That is abnormal. Does it make you feel afraid, or do you just think he's being a prat? He sounds awfully immature. Like you I'm not seeing 'abusive' here, unless there's lots more which you've not said.

Also you say that you can be a bit control freakish but are trying to control it (good!)...what things do you think he might say about your behaviour which are reasonable concerns to raise?

Re doormat thing - these things always creep up on you, Esme. People rarely notice as that sort of pattern is developing. The question is whether that's what's happened in your situation.

Anyfucker - sorry, did mean to answer that one way back, it IS an important one, I dont know the answer though except to say that we have had some huge rows in our time and he has never lifted a hand to me, nor have I ever seen him hit anyone. He has hit the wall on occasion, 3 or 4 times this last year, and maybe once a year before that, but has never hit me, but he is quite verbally agressive in that when annoyed or irritated he uses swear words a lot which I dont like at all.

Speedy - The guy is immature, of that I am quite sure, also low self esteem and needs approval from others.

I am not sure if he is abusive but I CAN say that I do find myself spending an awful lot of time and energy trying to avoid irritating him because he is so easily irritated, I find I have to "manage" how I deal with him, tiptoe around him to a dgree.

Actually, now I think on it, I am not sure that I AM that controlling i think it is more that HE has tried to make me feel that I am, merely becuase I have asked him to do, or not do certain things around the house ,for eg the furniture, or wiping his feet when he comes in, thats not really controlling though is it, just basic manners?

Cross eyed with tiredness here, but thanks for all the replies all, you have given me a lot to think about. Back tomorrow. x

"Managing" your own behaviour...reads walking on egg shells, reads you fear his reaction if you don't

I hope I am not putting ideas in your head (if they aren't true)

Could him calling you controlling be him projecting/putting up the old smokescreen ?

ok, goodnight x

Please do come back. You will get support here. And contrary to popular opinion, you will not be harangued into leaving your husband

Hmm. The tiptoeing around him thing? Definitely manipulation going on here. That should NOT happen in any relationship of mutual respect.

Hi, AnyFucker!!

hi, Speedy !

OP - If the hitting the walls (or anything else he does) makes you think he actually might hit you then leave. As soon as you can get things organized well, sooner if you feel in immediate danger.

I do not mean to suggest by anything I have written that you should stay with someone who might do you physical harm or is abusive.

The impression I got from your posts was that although the thumping the wall was intimidating it wasn't intended to be. And on the other fronts you seem angry about his treatment of you but not particularly vulnerable to control by him.

I don't actually mean to suggest you ought to stay with him at all. Reading my posts I think they come across as quite adversarial and that's unreasonable of me. I'm sorry, especially if I added stress at what is obviously an upsetting time for you.

What I'm trying to point out is that if you do want to stay married and change the relationship that you have with your husband, you aren't going to do it by trying to make him fit in to your ideal. It has to be a shared vision of family life.

It may be he isn't prepared to change at all, that he has no interest in finding a shared ideal with you. Or it may be that even though you both try, you want incompatible things. So there are no guarantees. But it certainly isn't going to work if you're aiming for just your version of what family life should be.

Look at something you recently posted:
"I said that I did not think I was that difficult to communicate with ... As this discussion went round and round in circles he then did what he always does which is to say that I am much more articulate than him ... and that I tie him up in knots with clever words."

I realize that you said the bit about not being difficult to communicate with in the context of your discussion about him thumping the wall, but I'm guessing it's also a reasonable reflection of how you do feel. But if he's often telling you that you tie him up in knots why do you think he would find it easy to communicate with you? If you were always telling him something, wouldn't you likely be doing so because it's how you feel?

Could you try to use your language skills to help him articulate his position better so that you can better understand it? So instead of arguing take a step back and end up building a shared picture of how you both feel about something?

I wonder whether his saying that you 'tie him up in knots' when your discussion went round in circles is his rather accusatory, insight-less way of expressing something which is apparently very common to men? Namely, that they typically process information better in bullet-point form. Women are usually much better at handling circuitous convos but men's brains seem to work differently.

I was trawling through the internet a couple of days ago and found this. I don't know who the writer is, but his advice for how men should communicate with women is spot on, IMO, so I can only assume that, being a man, he's equally spot on for how women should communicate with men.

Does any of this chime with you? My DH also finds bullet points more easily digestible than long, exploratory conversations, and much as it pains me to have to alter the way I speak to him, if it will facilitate smoother conversation over our differences, I'll give it a go.

Your DH really does need to find a more mature and less aggressive way of dealing with his frustrations, though. Punching walls is simply not acceptable, and all the more because you have children who will be learning from him.

Esme, you know it's perfectly possible to love and admire a quality about someone, yet not enjoy when one is on the sharp end. I'll give you an example. My cousin, also a lawyer, is brilliant at her job; has high ethical standards, she volunteers doing pro bono work, has 3 great kids etc. We had a misunderstanding a few years ago, and she absolutely launched into me. Wow. On one hand it was truly impressive, and even once we cleared up the miscommunication, I was left reeling.

But I still really admire her advocacy skills and her ability to articulate, just didn't really enjoy being on the receiving end.

It seems to me that what your DH is saying is that he doesn't know how to communicate with you at times, so he defaults into snide, sarcastic, sneery which isn't very helpful. It's his way of coping, so what he needs to work out is what he can replace this pattern with.

"I am not sure if he is abusive but I CAN say that I do find myself spending an awful lot of time and energy trying to avoid irritating him because he is so easily irritated, I find I have to "manage" how I deal with him, tiptoe around him to a degree."

:(

That is so sad.

You deserve so much better than that.

Esme: the key think with abusive men is that they do not have horns and drag their knuckles on the ground. It's not immediately obvious that a man is abusive - if he punched women in the face and called them cunts on the first date, he wouldn't get many second dates, would he? OK so there are some men who are completely unable to control their tempers and lash out at anyone and everyone, therefore have long criminal records and can't keep jobs as well as usuing their partners as punchbags, but most abusive men have their behaviour under very good control. They don't throw things at their workmates or shout abuse at other large men in the street as there would be immediate, unpleasant consequences for them. But they choose to bully their wives. They start by making sure they get their own way over little things, very little things, by sulking or being awkward: the woman gives in, thinking it's not worth having a row about. Then they move up to slightly bigger things; again the woman gives in, because it's not worth a row. Slowly but staedily, the woman is learning that the man must always get his own way or else there will be a row. Sooner or later, though, a difference of opinion arises where the woman doesn't want to give in, it's something that's important to her. This is when the man will escalate - usually the first time she resists he won't go as far as violence but there will be shouting and maybe threats. Men like this know perfectly well that they only need to tantrum occasionally to keep the woman in a constant state of fear and guilt, and to get their own way all the time.

I think some people are unable to see things from another person's pov. If it doesn't matter to them - it doesn't matter full stop, you know?

So how about sitting down and saying "look, I know you don't understand why this matters to me. You don't have to understand why - you just have to know that it does.

You love your golf clubs. You take really good care of them and you polish them all the time. How would you feel if I started using them to kill spiders, to flatten the flowerbeds, to prop open the door - or even just took them out of the bag and let them get dirty or scratched? How would you feel if you came to your clubs and found that instead of being nice and shiney - they were muddy and a bit scratched? If you can just remember that analogy and think how you would feel, then perhaps you can understand how I feel on this. If you don't like bare feet, then why don't we get you some 'indoor shoes'? You can keep them at the door and swap over when you come in?"

Would that work?

so it s ok for him to act agressively - hit walls - because it's your fault for the way you talk?

nope - he hits walls to intimidate. it isnt on he is an adult.

(my exP also blames me for "making him2 smash his fist thru an internal door - becuase he couldnt communicate to me his anger etc..

if your children start hitting walls in anger what will you do? -because tehy will learn this is the way to deal with things...

there seem to be bigger issues here than ottomans and loose covers.

go talk things thru on your own with a counsellor.

start keeping a log/diary of his behaviour and how you react. think about changing your reaction. you cant change his behaviour - you can change yours.

look back over your al-anon notes

I think this is being blown all out of proportion completely esme. Your post was that you didn't want him putting his shoes on the sofa but he wanted them on. I really don't know why people have to over react on mumsnet. Now its turned into abuse and next they will be saying you should call domestic abuse line. Some perspective here wouldn't go amiss. Noone is perfect we all have our flaws. I get the impression with mumsnet unless the man or woman is acting like mary poppins everyday then you are classed as abusive - get real and get into reality . I bet none of you are mary poppins yourselves! Everyone has flaws within reason that they need to work on.
Personally I would not want my hubby to walk round with shoes on and put them on sofa but here you both just sound like you want your own way. His way is to have shoes on probably was like this before he met you so that's his way but your beliefs are that he should take them off and should be that way. Neither of you are right or wrong. What you need is to work on compromise as your both stubborn and want to control the situation. If you can't find common ground you are both going to carry on struggling for control and wanting the control isn't good, people should be who they want to be that's how it becomes relaxing. You can only control yourself not anyone else.

Hi all, just back after a hectic couple of days, would like to respond to some of your posts as you have all been so kind with advice and thoughts.

SuchP - Thanks for coming back to me, and no worries re tone, I appreciate all advice. There is a lot of sense in what you say, I guess if he feels I am talking him down or tying him up in knots then that is how he feels and I have to deal with that.

I still cannot see though how thumping the walls is a proportionate reaction to verbal frustration, but then, I dont knpw, maybe that is a testostorone thing..he knows it was wrong, but it happened, and he cant undo it.

Anyfucker and Dittany - I am going to read the books that have been suggested to me, as with some conflicting advice on here, I really am stumped as to whether my dh qualifies as abusive or not, or maybe he is just prone to acting like a prick at times, maybe that is one and the same thing, I really do not know so I will read whats out there and hopefully can find a way forward on that basis.

Speedy - Thanks for that link, very useful and worth giving a try I think.

ILoveMyDog - I know what you mean. Tbh and speaking as a lawyer myself, I find many lawyers to have that adversarial or argumentative streak that probably makes them very good at their job, but does not always go down too well in their personal interractions.

I am a hugely analytical and logical person. Whenever my dh and I argue I analyse all his points and hold them up to scrutiny to basically expose them as wrong, and this is probably not the best approach to conflict resolution in marriage, i recognise that, and after what you said, it suddenly clicked with me how frustrating and even threatening that might be to be on the receiving end of, but thats just the way I am, if I believe I am in the right I feel I can make my dh see that by the power of reason and logic, but unfortunately it doesnt seem to work that way!

Sparkling - Things are nowhere near as bad as that with us, but I appreciate the point, that it is a gradual development that can creep up on y ou unawares, and thats why I intend to read up on this.

Hecate, unfortunately he flat out refuses to wear indoor shoes, slippers or any other form of footwear other than what he has walked in the door in!

Cestlavie - Thanks, I do intend to keep tabs on this and to be more aware of how he behaves and my reaction.

Finally RachynMeg, thanks for those wise words. I am not at all perfect and yes, in this situation I certainly do not want to back down, and suppose I do want to control the situation in some way, but the way I see it is that I would not treat something my dh liked by putting my feet up on it, and i dont think its a big ask to say put the loose cover on first or take off the shoes, I feel he should cede to me in this small issue cos he gets a lot of leeway in all the larger stuff, golf trips away , nights out etc.. But yes, is he abusive to me or is he just acting like a spoilt prick..I tend to the latter view, but am going to arm myself with the info and then judge it.

Thank you so so much to you all for putting up with the long posts and for all the kind advice. x

I've skipped over a few posts but I couldn't wait.

Him hitting walls is him being physically abusive, he may not be hitting you but he is showing what he could do to you. The threat from that is so great that it will only take one small occasion from him to go from the threat of violence to actual violence.

It's so common, I've seen it time and time again through working for Women's aid. It also appears that he has no respect for you or your opinions, I'm not sure whether that is because he's pissed off with you or whether he thinks that women are inferior.

I would advise you to contact Women's aid, just for a chat and let them give an unbiased professional opinion.

Racheyandmeg - I've come across a few of your posts now and they all seem to be "lets all get along as friends". The people on this thread that are talking about abusive behaviour all have some experience of similar situations. Mumsnet does not have a bunch of rabid men haters who are all out to "get" men and ruin relationships.

It's nice that you like to try to bring some balance to the threads but it's also people like you that mean women experiencing domestic abuse don't feel they can come forward and get help. Your viewpoint, whilst well meaning, is actually very harmful.

Well it sounds as if loose covers need to stay on all the time then

But I think he´s really rude & bad mannered to put shoes up on furniture.

Sounds daft, but I´d lose a lot of respect for him.

Nothing daft about that diddl

I too would lose respect for a man who flat-out refused to take care of family belongings, and appeared to be deliberately ruining them to make some kind of juvenile point that he is The Boss

And who expressed their frustration by punching walls.

This is a man who appears to think he is deserving of respect without actually earning it.

Sounds like you two have some issues that need to be worked out, Good Luck, dont let him away with the wall thumping thing though!