How do you feel about prostitution?

[BillieH]

Hello everyone, I have name changed for this(no sinister reason) but i do post on here from time to time.

Anyway, I would love to know what your thoughts are on prostitution. I don't mean political views and I dont really want to get into a discussion on whether girls are trafficked, pimped, druggies. Just what you think as a whole.

I am talking about girls who willing become escorts or work in massage parlours under the guise of 'masseuses' when really they provide extras.

What do you think of men who see them? Are that losers, sad and lonely, 'sex addicts'or what? Would you think your dp/dh was cheating if he saw a prostitute.

I ask just out of curiosity, I do not think my dp has ever visited a prostitute! Also, apparently 1 in 10 men see prostitutes. Do you agree with this. If this is true what hope do we all have eh?

My take is that i belive some girls use their looks to earn money an 'easy' way. By easy, I mean that they do not have to train for yrs to get a decent paid job, or they do not have to work 9 to 5 in an office when they can earn a wks wages in a day.

I have asked my own dp and he beleives that there is something missing from a relationship if a man sees a prostitute.Obviously its different with a single man. He also thinks that some men have issues sexually with their wives/partners and are inhibited. Therefore, that is why they pay for sex acts that they can't ask for at home. These are exactly my thoughts.Anyone agree or disagree?

I'd like your thoughts or experiences!

Fibilou, I'll admit I got no further than the "entry" page; it's a long time since I'd have qualified. But I'd heard of the site before.

Many of us do actually pay taxes. We may not describe ourselves to HMRC as prossies (they don't care, what we do is legal!) but pay the taxes anyway; do you see a whole lot of respect on this thread? (Someone even said we were lying about that, no such thing as an honest WG, though she was rather less polite than that.)

The safest way for WGs to work is incall, in shared accommodation. However, as the law stands, a place that is used by more than one WG, even if on different days, at different times, is a brothel. And where a brothel exists, there must be a brothel-keeper; I have heard of two indie women sharing a flat, and each being done with pimping the other.

Just as horrifying, there is an on-going case where Wgs in a brothel were attacked and robbed by baseball-bat-wielding thugs. The WGs phoned the brothel-keeper, who phoned 999 - she now has had her bank accounts frozen etc while the police investigate her. The men who attacked the women, although identified right down to workplace, have no charges against them, and no further investigation.

Why did this happen? Well, you'll know that under the Proceeds of Crime Act, profits from such "illegal" activity can be confiscated, and the police get to keep 20% of the proceeds... there's no profit in prosecuting the thugs.

I'd hate to be thought cynical, and I don't think this is widespread just yet, but with Goverment cuts in funding and so on, I can't help but wonder if this will only get worse. :(

I was a prostitute in NZ pre decrim days, it was not legal to be a prostitute, even though it was being passed to de crim the police obviously still had to uphold the current laws, this resulted in working girls being thrown out of their safe flats onto the streets literally, it was a terrible time.
Now it has gone through the industry is so much better, girls can safely work from apartments with other girls, brothels that did exploit the woman are now not able to do so as they are licensed and health and safety often inspected,unsafe practices are illegal, ie condoms have to be used for oral,vaginal and anal sex. They are no longer able to 'fine' girls.
I do pay tax on my earnings, I am registered as self employed, I do not know for sure but I would imagine that most girls in the circles I am in do also.
I think parlours should be regulated and licensed and I know any decent owner would welcome this.
Two girls working from the same flat for safety reasons should also be allowed, as it stands we are vulnerable because of this.
Being able to advertise in the papers like other legal professions is also a start, then you will be able to keep an eye on who is who and where is where.
I think you are right that when it comes to the scene you are talking about I would like to think it would make a difference, how about these safe zones? But again these woman in these desperate situations are not primarily caused by prostitution.

DOes any of the women here think it's a coincidence that society has been structured in a way that means prostitution is a good option for women because of their economic weakness in society?

Sakura you seem to be unaware that there are woman in the industry that are very highly trained and skilled and can earn a very very decent wage out of the industry, but at what cost? This affords them a very good living to be able to devote time to other interests.

Sakura, I'm sorry if we seem to be ignoring you. As a regular MNer, I have a lot of respect for your postings, because you seem to question and not just accept propaganda straight off, but you're approaching this from a radfem analysis that we simply don't accept as valid.

I do know that prostitution is the one business where women doing the same job as men routinely earn way, way more than them. I can't see that as abusive.

Yes exactly Sabrina, for example it gives them the time to acquire a far more in-depth education and real knowledge of history allowing them to think independently rather than spouting some inane regurgitated drivel.

Last comment was not aimed at Sakura btw. And I appreciate you trying to discuss your viewpoint in a polite manner.

OFFS, thank you for your last comment. I can take you seriously too. My view might be a radfem view, to me it's just common sense.

sabrina, yes at what cost indeed. David Cameron, our PM, was born into a world of privilege and has his position because of no other reason than luck. That's the reason he's never been a prostitute/rent boy. The way society has been set up means that women are vulnerable. Tory governments don't want to change the status quo.

MissHOney, I resent the absolute stereotyped imaged you have created in your mind about MNers. That's like me creating a stereotype about prostitutes. You'd hit the roof if I did that, and yet you are quite happy to lump "other" women into some homogenous group. It's you who is creating an 'us and them' idea, not me.
Every time you use this stereotype, I just wonder who you're talking about.

It does seem some people on here simply have ulterior motives for their stream of posts. It's ss if they have this big need to justify the industry and they do that by attacking other women, the 'mumsies' on MN.
DOn't you realise that the type of language and the distain you have for women in general shows how much you they have been affected by this work?

It's like you believe all the shite the punters feed you about their wives 'not understanding them'. There is a reason women don't like these men.

But it's more than that. Some men can get women quite easily and still pay for sex. That's because they enjoy not having to deal with a real woman. In other words, they are inadequate men.

DO your job, by all means, but why are you trying to justify what these men do?

I'm very late to this, but I'm a prostitute and also a mother of 2.

I frequent PN and also MN (especially the relationship threads) although I actually found this thread on MN relationships forum , not Punternet.

I'm not going to say that the job is brilliant or "belle du jour" like however the attitudes towards women who work in the sex industry on this thread have been utterly disgusting.

I pay taxes, registered as self-employed and I do not see anyone who I have the slightest inkling may be disrespectful towards me.

There is however another side to this industry - the addicted/trafficked woman which I am against and volunteer with a charity organisation.
I will defend to my death the right of sex workers to safe working conditions and choices with what we do with our own bodies though (btw I rent sexual services , I do NOT sell my body - it is still mine at the end of the day). It is legal in the UK for someone to offer sexual services on her own, but not legal to share a place with another girl for safety. Crazy , no?

Ah, Sakura, it was all common sense to me too, until I learned a bit more. (I really was a Women's Aid worker before I became a prostitute; there were years in between. At that time, I believed what you do.)

Political analysis is one thing; actually living the life is totally different. What I have learned is that radfems sound like they're talking sense, and they certainly appeal to the human in all of us; trafficking is awful, sexual slavery is dreadful... well of course it is! No Uk born/raised citizen, whore or not, is going to say/think anything else.

But we are not trafficked. We are not any kind of slaves.

Why can we not be left in peace, to conduct our legal business as we choose?

But OFFS in one post you have made an entire group of incorrect assumptions about me.

For example, my generation (now in my twenties) have been basically raised with porn culture and brainwashed , basically, into thinking individualism and liberalism are right and good. The "As long as it's not hurting anyone" mentality. THat's how most people think.

Except I have realised recently that the sex industry does hurt people, trafficked or not, prostitute or not. It hurts all women. Nobody lives in a vacum. It hurts society, and it's going to affect the society my daughter is raised in because it contributes to this idea that all a man has to do is organize the time and the place and he can buy a woman.

there is too much wrong with society- too many rapes, too much rife sexism, too much rampant misogyny for this to be okay with me.

I understand why women go freely into prostitution, and I know some might not mind the job even, but the fact that an industry exists in the buying and selling of women's people's bodies shows that we are not yet part of an evolved society.

And everytime I hear one of the WGs on here say they pay taxes I think 'OMFG, the gove doesn't even let you keep what you earn What business does any government have making revenue out of women's bodies??

I am very late to this thread but have to comment...

First of all, I'm a little surpised that the women here who say they work in this industry cannot understand why some MN'ers on the relationships forum of all places may strongly disagree with you and your profession. Is it not quite obvious that some, if not many, have had their lives turned upside down by a husband's betrayal? With WGs or with other women...You come here and defend it, some even lay blame on the wives for not being attentive enough. Can you not empathise and see that, for women who are going through divorces from cheating lying husbands, reading your comments that the poor poor ickle diddums hubbies weren't getting enough love at home, is devastating? And most likely untrue in many situations. Just as a cheating man will often tell his mistress how mean and nasty his wife is (whilst his wife waits anxiously at home, because she loves her husband and doesn't know he's out shagging someone else), they will spout this to you too. Because it eases their guilt.

Why is this discussion necessary? I don't come on the relationships forum to talk about my job, why would you? I understand that this industry is present, many want to work in it, some enjoy it. Fine. But don't come onto a forum where women are trying to seek advice and comfort during some of the toughest times of their life and extrapolate on the virtues of banging married men. It's just self indulgent bullshit.

What did you expect? For the women here who have been used and abused, cheated on, beaten, controlled, raped, lost homes, dignity, love etc. to say "oh yes darlings, you shag away, suggest that it's my fault for not being some tired 1950's stereotype of a wife. Go ahead".

Please.

There have been some very interesting, well written and factual posts, which I don't believe were intended to hurt anyone. But some of the posters here are clearly trying to justify their actions (why?) and, in doing so, are bashing the women who use this forum on a daily basis.

Wow I got a little rant going there!

Yes, but it's not even about the wives, really.

Loads of MNers don't have husbands or partners. Some of the best feminist posters on MN are single mothers who disagree with the sex industry because of the reasons I gave in my last post.

I can't abide this notion that wives and prostitutes are competing with each other. Urgh, it just feeds into the mother/madonna/whore complex that these inadequate men thrive on; the type of men who can't see women as human beings on the same level as them.

Wow! what a thread! I'm a Mum of a 17 year old teenager. I split from his Dad when he was 4 after having years of mental abuse from him. I took myself through University and got a post grad while going through the divorce and maintaining 2 part-time jobs. I worked hard and got qualified for a career in Education.

I did this because I wanted to be self sufficient and make my son proud, give him aspirations and the drive to go to University himself. By the time he was 6 I decided to become celebate. I found men prayed on the vunerable and as I had not got over my divorce still and wanted to be loved so badly, I was an easy target.

For a while I was doing ok workwise and managing to maintain the mortgage and look after my sons needs, but then the place I was working at got sold. I got another job further a field from home (there was nothing local) and basically started to burn out. On top of this I had been lied to at interview and offered training and extra money for taking on extra responsibility. When this did not happen I found myself again in financial trouble and was only seeing my son for half an hour a day. I got the union involved and left the job.

Years later and having not secured another full time job as I couldn't get a reference from the last job I find myself losing my CSA payments as my ex has left the Country. I am faced with losing my home, I have accumlated debts and my son is taking his GCSE's. I needed to keep his equilibrium, after all, he did not choose to be in this position and I divorced his Dad, so it is my responsibility to prepare him for the future and give him what he needs.

At this point again despite having part-time jobs (I've never not worked) I was faced with failure and I won't have it. I decided to try selling some pictures on a website. Three months later I met my first client.

I like most of you having lived a very moral life and being monogomous by nature was convinced that I'd not be able to do it and justified it in my head by telling myself that it is better for a man to see me than to have a one night stand and upset an innocent woman who thought they were single and they would see each other again. Believe me there are thousands of married men on dating sites doing exactly that. I've been trying to find a partner on the internet for years and got no where, as there are very few actual single men on there who want a relationship.

Anyway, I have been completely surprised by the type of man I have met. I have met men between relationships that don't want to hurt anyone. They have respect for women and would rather be honest that they just want sex. I have met men that have social skills problems and have not been able to gain a friendship with a woman in order to be in a relationship and wanted to lose their virginity. They just wanted to know what it felt like to be close, have cuddles and kiss etc. This is sad and I feel very much for someone in this position, I wish it could have been different for them, but when faced with this in your 40s, how long are you meant to wait for it to happen? I have met men who have wives with terminal illness. Some have permission from their wives and some just need some respite. Terminal illness can last for years. As a sole carer of someone you love dying there is plenty of stress. You can't have sex with the lady you love, but you still have needs. It's another heart breaking situtation.

I'm not saying that all the people that use escorts are like this, but there is a real mix. I'm not saying that I don't still have a niggle about men seeing wgs while in relationships. In fact while I was touring recently I had one client not turn up for a booking, he later apologised, told me he was married and had never done it before and got cold feet, but still wanted to see me. I told him that if he had any doubt then he shouldn't and if he felt he needed to see me, then maybe he needed to ask himself why? I told him to talk to his wife and try and sort out what ever problem they had, because she may not be happy either. Funnily enough he still wanted to see me, but I told him to wait and if he still wanted to when I came back I would.

Do I enjoy the job? Far more than I thought I would. In fact if I am honest, yes I do. Does my son know I'm doing it? No! He is 17 and I've brought him up to respect women and think of their feelings and needs. Where I believe escorting isn't the vile thing I had thought it was previously, I don't think the media would support me on this and it may well change our relationship. I need him to respect me and why upset him and make him feel responsible for doing this? It's not his fault, he was my motive that is all.

Reading this thread what I find upsetting is the 'them and us' attitude. We all do what we can to support our children, this is 'mumsnet' is it not? I don't expect you to support what I am doing, but to show some understanding. I personally hate women that go out of their way to take someone elses man. I have never dated someone who was already in a relationship or made a move on a friends man. I just wouldn't do it. There are women who marry for money. Again I could not do it, although I have heard that be described as a form of prostitution.

You don't have to accept what escorts do, but why hate? They are not the reason why a relationship may break up, but merely a symptom. If a man is going to stray he will find his way. The difference is, we are not approaching them, they approach us.

Very well said, EternalCynic!

I wish the prostitutes on here would spare us their sob stories.

"I have met men who have wives with terminal illness. Some have permission from their wives and some just need some respite. Terminal illness can last for years. As a sole carer of someone you love dying there is plenty of stress. You can't have sex with the lady you love, but you still have needs".

That is the most repugnant and vile thing I've read on this thread. Truly horrible and hugely insulting to those men who manage to care for a dying wife without the selfishness of thinking about their sexual needs.

Nobody dies from a lack of sex, those wives who give their permission have probably been brainwashed all their lives to believe that a man's needs are a priority.
If a man truly loves his wife, the thought of paying some random woman for sex would be horrific.

How is it that no-one ever suggests that women caring for a very sick husband should have paid sex as "stress relief".

It's sickening.

I like Dittany's idea, well said Dittany!

I'm going to start a registered charity called "Shag a Prostitute for free". It'll be designed for those men who no longer wish to tell prostitutes stories about their wives dying. r being disabled and instead just want to get on with the fucking, sucking and licking.

So please, please, please give all the money you can to the men of the dirty mac brigade so that they can shag a prostitute for free!

I hope everyone's noticed how all the punternet trolls have invaded mumsnet.

Just be careful to talk about prostitutes generally and never specificaly otherwise they'll go and whinge about you on Punternet and be egged on by their male acolytes, ponces and pimps.

Well said, Malificence!

As a 60 year old mother of four and a grandmother of 3 I am totally disgusted to read the bile and excrement that is coming out of the mouths of the non WG mothers on this thread.

I happened upon this thread by accident as I was babysitting my grandchildren yesterday and it seems the moderators or whatever they call them, make it too easy for people to make up multiple personas in order to lambast others with more than one posting.

It is very obvious to me that the girls on here that claim to be working girls are not silly, pressured to work girls. Infact, they respond to the lambasting very eloquently which shows they are nothing like the people you make them out to be.

Why is it so hard for females that are not in the adult industry to understand that many, if not the majority, of these girls DO INFACT, choose to work in that industry.

I must admit I am totally against trafficking and all the other sordid things that happen to females but it is very obvious that the girls who have answered all posts in this thread without using the obscene language that some of the other ?ladies? and i use that word very lightly have.

What does jump out to me in the postings from the non working girls in this thread is the fear and terror in their lives. Are you really so insecure in your lives that you have to retort in such an infantile manner because as you thought (very wrongly) that the working girls were not of the intelligence to respond in the manner they did?

It is nice to know that I am not the only open minded adult reading this thread (thanks Jean for your input). It appears that many of the MNers have a lot of growing up to do and perhaps they should perhaps look at their own lives before they start throwing mud or spouting bile !

I?m sure there will be another set of retorts to this posting but as stated earlier in this thread ?Live and Let Live? and ?Mark One Card? ie look at yourself WITH HONESTY before you start looking at anyone else. None of us lives an error free life (not even me) so get over it and let these girls get on with their jobs. Stop being so narrow minded/blinkered.

Many of the MNers state they are SAHM?s and that is through choice. Why can you not believe that the working girls who have replied to your postings have made the same choice and prefer to work in the industry rather than rely on a SO/DP/DH to hand over money to pay bill/eat/clothe their children (if they have them) or even worse to live off the government. You would really have something to complain about ? and no doubt you would ? if hubby?s tax went up to keep these ladies fed and watered. But that is another thread altogether.

It also appears to me that many of the previous posters seem to spend a great deal of time at their laptops/pcs or whatever, how on earth do you get time to look after your children/do your housework/write postings. It does seem that many are neglecting some of their obligations in order to do so. There also seems to be a lot of repetition of postings which implies the posters cannot think of anything new to say.

I know not a lot will agree with me, but I HAVE MY OPINION TOO, and it is worth the merit that others have also been given.