When a man tells you what he is like,,,listen! Or, red flag time

[Janos]

You know, the men who just drop into a conversation that they aren't nice people, or think it's funny to drop kick bunny rabbits, or that they did this awful, really bad thing one time but will never do it again, honest guv'nor?

They are telling you something. Listen. And don't ignore your instincts.

It's been said before, I just feel that this is worth repeating.

I agree, Janos, that if someone's unpleasant they'll find a way to show it - I just didn't like the idea that you can tell what someone is like from one thing dropped into conversation. Sometimes you can, but often not.

Don't get me wrong, I've (and been) a woman who gets sucked in by men who quite blatantly parade their nastiness as if it's something to be proud of. But I would worry that you could go too far, and imply that men should never say anything negative about themselves ... which feeds into a set of macho stereotypes I suspect none of us want to see propagated.

I think there is a tendency to feel that we have to tell our dc - and maybe girls in particular - "be nice to everyone"; "don't be nasty to anyone"; "don't be intolerant"; or worse still, perhaps, "people who are mean to you probably have problems so you should take pity on them". I hope I have encouraged dd to develop her twat radar, so that she can trust her instincts and be her own person. But I do really agree with ButterflyEffect that it should be taught in PSHE. Not everyone IS nice, or by any means well meaning. Kids need to be able to sort the sheep from the wolves, to mix a metaphor.

I reckon that what we are calling a twat radar - just walk away, and say fuck off if necessary - used to be a radar for evil in more religious times.

soxhound - or an "ineligible as husband" radar when religion wasn't uppermost in mind. Because we don't have to think of every man we might want to go to bed with as a husband nowadays, we can accept crap behaviour as it's only temporary/ not serious etc... forgetting that relationships sometimes have a momentum of their own.

LittleRed, of course you're right, men should be allowed to say something about themselves without it being misconstrued and their woman leaping up from the table and running for her life.

I think it's unlikely that the geniuine sincere person who expresses self-doubt is going to be misunderstood.

The kind of scenario that we're thinking should be a warning is very subtle, and it's the INSTINCT part that is so important - like we said in the beginning.

This book,The Gift of Fear is really good on what this thread is about.

It gives loads of case studies of women who heard - on one level - what violent/stalker men said about themselves, but overrode their fear instincts out of pity, "niceness", wish not to cause offence, etc.

"Grooming" is a very useful word in this context - I hadn't seen it that way. Effectively you are being tested to see what you are prepared to put up with, against your own instincts and interests. If you make a stand, the groomer will walk away.

Good thread OP.

Interesting how girls are conditioned to be 'nice' from a young age. Mary (mother of Jesus) was 'meek and mild' in the carols; little girls are made of, "...sugar and spice and all things nice..." in the nursery rhyme and you're encouraged to be 'ladylike' - whatever that means .

If I ever have a DD I'd like her to be nice to (nice) people, obviously, but more than that I'd like her to be feisty, confident and not afraid of telling anyone to get fucked.

In fact I might just buy her Thelma and Louise, Aliens and Terminator 2 for her 5th birthday!

I do think it's a pity that compassion is so distorted by these manipulative people. It should be such a positive - not a chink in the armour through which a manipulator will manoeuvre.

Rhinestone, I am only on the second of Stieg Larsson's Millenium Trilogy - don't know if you've read them - but the heroine Lisbeth Salander doesn't muck about when dealing with men who hate women. No bleeding heart there.

Soxhound, read the first one and yes, Lisbeth is a very good literary role model! Much better than the Jane Eyre types -

"Reader, I married him the miserable, controlling, probably NPD twunt.

I would also add the following:
WHen someone says 'I don't want a serious relationship.' LISTEN. That person doesn't want a serious relationship. If you do then seek it with someone else rather than telling yourself that everything the person does that is nice means the person really wants a longterm monogamous relationship with you.
And, conversely, when someone says 'I promise I will change', never mind what the person says, watch what the person does. Because sometimes it means 'I will change... maybe... but not just yet. RIght now I'm going to continue doing whatever it is that you don't like, but I've promised^ to change so shut the fuck up.'

twat radar. I don't have a daughter but if I did I think twat radar would be the single most important skill I could teach her.

I am definitely helping DD develop her twat radar!
Tippytap that was great what you said to your DD - my family get pissed off if DD(5) doesn't kiss them goodbye or sit on their knee but I always tell her (and them) she doesn't have to kiss/have physical contact with anyone she doesn't want to.
I also think this applies to potential friendships too. Twice I've ended up attracting new friends who tell me "everyone always lets them down", "they don't trust anyone but me", "other people don't like me" which invariably leads to them sucking me dry emotionally because I am their sole source of support. Luckily I have a great group of friends who have a far better instinct than I do and are able to warn me!
Hope that makes sense - its very early and DS2 been up alot in the night!

Also beware of men who slag off their ex wife too much. I wish I'd known this 5 year ago when I met XP.
On our first date he time me his ex wife was a lesbian, she cheated on him and apparently took everything in their divorce and poisoned his DS against him.
Now he's telling everyone I am a lesbian, I cheated on him and I owe him money, all because I couldn't put up with his drinking and abuse and spent time with my best friend and moved on and met someone else. I have also poisoned my dc against him because I won't let him see them as he is always drunk.
His ex wife is a really nice woman and she deserves x medal imo for putting up with him for 20 years.

red flag for me is when a man claims all of his ex's were mad (or he could say hysterical, unhinged, over emotional, needy, high maintenance etc). what he is saying is that he doesn't like women and that he has the depth, empathy and self awareness of a slug.

also, conversely, if he has the right answer for everything, seems exactly like you, seems to agree on all of your values etc he's a mirror, just reflecting back what you want to see and eventually it will crack and you won't recognise the new creature.

This is a really good thread.

It's so easy when in the beginning of a relationship to confuse 'nobody's perfect' with 'this one will make you miserable'.

One of my ex's used to tell me about how he had kicked in a cupboard door once - when he was angry and during a row with someone he now idolises (she's dead now)
Apparently his family came round and told him he was a loser for doing it and he was told never to do it again.

Thing is though it was about 10 years previously, the fact he hadn't really had a proper relationship since made me wonder if when he next did have a proper relationship he would get that angry again. It hadn't been tested.
Also the fact he was so devoted to this woman yet still had managed to kick in a door during an argument made me think, 'Hmm, he says he is really devoted to me. This could indicate his passion will go the same way, ie enough to be violent'

I didn't say anything at the time but I inwardly logged it and it contributed to my leaving him quite soon after.

Also - I'll say it again - men who are cruel or disproportionately angry at people in shops or public positions, such as receptionists. If he is quick to be demanding, angry etc with them ('they're not doing their job, it's not good enough' etc) then he will continually embarrass you and worse still, he will eventually be like that to you, too. Probably.
(never tested that one out)

It is a good thread. This sort of thing takes up so much time and energy.

I have a friend who once told me that her dh 'literally does not care what people think about him.'

She sees it (saw it?) as a sign of inner strength. I saw it as a sign of something quite wrong in his head. (There was more, of course...loads.)

It went predictably badly. She explains everything away as him being stronger than the rest of the world (who are weaklings) or there being a vendetta against him.

I think if someone states that they don't care about anyone's opinion of them, then that is going to include their partner's as well

I had a brief relationship after my horrible marriage ended with someone who was rude and racist to the taxi driver on our first date, making nasty comments under his breath etc and when I said something about it said "Oh you know me I will always be a bit racist, but not in a nasty way".

Later on he said proudly "Oh I have a very childish sense of humour". So he was in fact a Childish Racist and he actually told me so himself. Lord he was awful, him and my ex H have put me off men forever, I haven't even thought about men for a year now and not sure I ever weill.

as already mentioned above:

• if he tells you he does not want a serious relationship. Well, in most cases it actually means "I don't want a serious relationship with you", but it does not mean "I will change my mind later when I discover what a lovely woman you are", as we would like to think.

• if he tells you that all his ex-partners were horrible bitches. Either he really does not see that he had something to do with the break-ups as well or he has a horrible taste in women and no ability to learn from experiences. and when you become an ex, you know how he will talk about you.

• if he tells you about his agressive behaviour, stories when he just was not able to control himself, about violence, his hot temper, beating someone up and so on. He is probably an abuser checking out new territory. He will, of course remind you later, that he warned you and you stayed anyway..

My ex told me about himself in a slightly different way. He always talked very warmly about previous girlfriends, but always about the things they bought him and the money they spent and how they took care of him. I thought it was sweet. Ha! He took everything I could possibly could (several times emptying our joint bank account to spend on himself) and demanded more, more, more. He sucked me dry and raged at me when there was nothing left.

Frrrrightattendant - so true about men who are rude to receptionists, shop assistants etc!! (In fact, you've obviously observed my father?!)

On a positive note, men who like animals tend to be lovely, calm, trustworthy guys. Not just their own pets though, all animals be they squirrels in the park or exotic animals on TV.

Will be advising any future DDs to go out with vets!

oh that would have been a clear, 'wants a mummy' warning for me nickname - one big boob to suck the life out of.

Yes racism is a BIG red flag too

Ex also used to tell me that he 'had a bit of a temper'. This would come up in stories about things that had happened in the past - he always emphasised it was only shown selectively, ie he took it out on objects, not people, etc.

This coupled with him telling me he had shouted and sworn at some nameless young person in a call centre didn't seem to add up.

I hate people who do things like that.

I'll know next time, Wallows.

Oh anyone who claims to have been 'let down' or mistreated by most if not all of their previous partners is a self-obsessed loser.

this message - 'when a man tells you what they are like, listen carefully: that is what they are like' is probably the single best thought I have learned on MN, and I have emphasised it very carefully with my teenage DDs

(who of course don't listen to me!)

But I think it also applies to women as well: some of the things I have learned about partners were things looknig back they actually told me about very early on, but i wasn't paying attention.