Can't forgive him for birth trauma

[Unwind]

And I know it wasn't really his fault.

My DH wiggled out of going to antenatal classes and appointments with me, and would not read the books I tried to make him read, but otherwise did his best to be supportive.

That best was not good enough - he let hospital staff ignore and undermine me during labour and after our daughter's birth, when she was in SCBU. It was an unbelievable nightmare to me, and I did not stand up for myself or for her - so why do I feel so bitter that he did not? We were both naive, we trusted the professionals, who were in positions of authority, we were first time parents and did not have confidence in ourselves in that role.

But I have not been able to feel the same way about my DH since then. How can I get over this? I have tried counselling, it did not fix things.

Unwind - so sorry you've been through this.

There's lots of great stuff on this thread, but I just wanted to post my DH's take on this, to counter some of the frankly horrifying attitudes from male posters.

DH came to antenatal classes and read all the books, because he wanted to be as involved and knowledgeable as possible.

The main thing he took from the classes was that he needed to be (a) aware of my wishes pre-birth (b) well-informed as to what each pain-relief method and assisted-birth-method involved so that he could be my voice when it was being discussed and (c) be totally and utterly on my side so that I didn't feel completely helpless.

He learned that from the classes.

He applied those lessons so successfully in the birth that - despite a succession of eight mad midwives who all contradicted one another and often tried to bully me and treat me like a child - I felt safe and secure because I knew he was fighting my corner.

I can't express how much that mattered - and still matters.

A healthy baby is the most important thing, yes - but you still matter.

There are so many extraordinary posts here - I want to reply to everyone individually, but I can't keep up, and I am getting very upset about a lot of them - but in a good way. I think I have had a lot of support here, and got new perspectives to help me move on. I have been feeling stuck in a loop of futile anger and bitterness - mostly with the hospital, but they don't care.

I especially appreciate the posts from all the parents of children with SN. It is true that I have blamed myself, and to an extent DH, for letting DD down, wondered if we had been more assertive, or just planned to formula feed, her life might have been easier. We will never know, and it is just destructive. You have been so generous in helping me.

Unwind, have you had a de-briefing with the hospital? This is a meeting (usually arranged via the PALS service at the hospital) where you can meet with a midwife etc who can explain, from the hospital's point of view, why certain decisions and actions were taken. It can sometimes help but does need careful consideration. Especially in my case as I harboured urges of the arsonist nature, ie I wanted to burn the hospital down! Think about this with your counsellor.
I'll tell you another thing that helps, Unwind - time. Accepting that sh*t happened and it will have to be dealt with but giving you and dh time to enjoy your dd as she is now. And breathe.
Hope you have gone to talk more to your DH, even if it's only about tonight's telly.

Unwind, just let it go. your Dp wasn't to blame, what happened happened. Concentrate on the here and now. If there were professional failings then make a complaint. Blaming your dp, really isn't helping.

springlamb - I will try and organise that, I will find it hard to contain myself.

CoinOperatedGirl - that is the whole point, I have been trying to let it go, and failing. I did make a formal complaint against the hospital. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve.

I've had friends who have had a debriefing, either through obtaining their notes and having someone independent (for example an independent midwife) read through them with them, or by having a senior midwife at the hospital guide them, and it did help, just to have it clear in your mind what happened and when, although you have to bear in mind that sometimes the notes are written very oddly - mine said that I was "happy" to go into hospital, whereas at the time I was crying my heart out, that wasn't (in this case) because the midwife didn't see me crying, but because happy is often used where "agreed" or "consented" would be much more accurate. So don't get your notes and read them on your own.

Also PALS can be a really good resource to guide you throguh possibilities, and there should be (I think they are still around) maternity groups too which are about liaison between the community and the hospital. So there might be some options for taking things forward that don't mean you have to be adversarial if you don't want to be.

Unwind Also, in defense of your husband, I think it's a fairly recent phenomenon for men to be admitted to assist a labouring woman in the form of either doctors or as partners.

Usually it was a an all-women domain, as it still is in most cultures. In Japan a woman would never dream of having her husband at the birth. Usually her mother is the birth-partner.

I think you just trust your instincts wrt how let down you feel, and an acknowledgement from your husband about your feelings on the matter will help you put everything behind you.

Definitely think about a doula if there's a next time. Then again, I knew exactly what I needed from DH the second time round [no phone calls to his mother on the way to the clinic, for example ] and he was able to manage it very well. Perhaps your husband will be able to too.

Nooka, I am in Scotland, so there is no PALS. I am considering writing to my MSP though. It is probably the only option left besides sueing the NHS.

Thank you Sakura. But I just don't want to have another baby. We had intended to have more than one, but I feel visceral horror at the thought of going through it again.

feel free to ignore this post but...
the pesky thing is that women are designed to forget how terrible birth is.
Another baby is not for everyone but I'll always remember reading the moving words of a woman who had suffered birth trauma, something along the lines of,
"The moment came when I realized I'd go through anything to have another baby, and that's when I knew I was healed."

I don't think that anyone is blaming the DH for what happened. A bad birthing experience is either pure bad luck (like mine), or because the staff are overworked and can't give enough support, or because a medical professional made a bad decision (also a cause in mine).

The DH didn't cause the bad experience, but he also didn't support his wife. Which is something that I think he needs to acknowledge. I think that it's completely understandable and ultimately forgivable why he did it. But he still did it.

Ah, you see sakura, I wasn't healed when I had my second. I only went into fertility treatment because I thought it wouldn't work and because I was getting older and thought I would regret it if I didn't give it another go. So that I could look back and think "at least we tried".

I was in complete shock when I became pregnant and a little bit horrified (literal meaning). I had nightmares through the pregnancy of being strapped to a trolley and wheeled down hospital corridors. I was shouting "I don't consent, I don't consent!" and the doctors and nurses were laughing at me. :(

Luckily, I found a very sympathetic GP who signed me on for counselling to get me through. And the second experience was so healing, even though no-one would describe it as easy. :)

Yes, I've heard that second births are often healing in themselves.
DO you think the second birth was healing because you knew more about yourself and you partner, your limits and vulnerabilities, MrsTittleMouse? .

Unwind - Can I just say "thank you" for beginning this thread? I realise you've begun it because of the pain and difficulty you are experiencing in your life, so perhaps "thank you" is the wrong thing to say? I don't know what the correct phrase might be.

But I've found it so thought-provoking, and helpful. And the responses it has generated, especially from others who have been through something similar, or who have drawn on their experiences (of birth, and of empathy) , also so generous and thoughtful.

All the best to you, Unwind.

Coming to this from a slightly different perspective. I have no experience of birth trauma (dh was fine, I was not particularly upset, disabilities were not diagnosed until much, much later).

But I do have experience of being the person who is blamed, not necessarily because of actual things I did wrong (though I've done those too), but because I was the person who should have made everything well and I couldn't.

Both my dcs were diagnosed round about age 8 with painful and potentially crippling disorders. Both have gone through several years of being very very angry with me. Ds is still angry. This is clearly not something I have deliberately done to them- I didn't batter them or anything. I made mistakes, too, I did not always support them in the right way, but tbh I think they would have been angry even if my behaviour had always been 100% immaculate. Because they trusted me to protect them, and I couldn't do that.

And I would say to the OP that this is a perfectly normal human reaction. Yes, you know it is wrong, but you still feel it. Don't feel guilty about it: it's how the human mind works. But do try to get some help: debriefing, counselling, family therapy- whatever it takes. And also accept that he may need counselling for his part in this (I have had some and will probably be getting more, about my part in what went wrong for dcs).

I went back to the same hospital to have dd, seven years after ds (and after the hospital had paid out my compensation claim for wrongful operation). Everyone thought I was mad. The preparation began when I was six months pregnant and culminated in a very relaxed birth and post-natal period. I had a designated midwife right next to my head whose only job was to tell me exactly what they were doing with the baby.
As I have told you Unwind, for over six years DH and I said No Way. Then December 2000 I said 'I think I might want another baby'. DD was born the following November, nine days after DS's 7th birthday. It's OK to be saying Never Again at this point, you still haven't made your peace with it. IME this next year will begin to see you peep out of the tunnel. Seeing your dd grow and progress will help.

Animula, I so agree.
Too often these days people are under the impression that you think baby, you have baby, you do a Snow White and live happily ever after. It ain't necessarily so. There are still women out there carrying scars like this around inside them, never realising that these things are eating away inside them, wondering why they can't seem to feel at home in their minds.
My mum gave birth to a still-born son in the 1950s when things were very different. It was a terrible experience and culminated in her being kept in hospital despite being physically well during her baby's funeral. I truly believe this had a profound effect on her and tainted her marriage and her ability to feel true happiness for the 40 years up to her death.
I wish it were easier to say to the world that this natural miracle you've just gone through has actually left you feeling pretty weird and scared (and that's without the night feeds).

I think there are two separate issues here that are compounding one another.

The first is your terrible experience during and after the birth of your daughter.

The second is the fact that your husband did not support you when you need him most.

It sounds like (from everything you have said including the title of your thread) that the second problem is the one that you really want to address here. It may be that when you manage to resolve this issue with your husband you will finally feel supported enough to be able to deal with your traumatic birth experience, including getting counselling, making further complaints etc. Or it might be that once you have resolved the issue with your husband you will also get some sort of closure with this trauma and will have no need to take it further.

I think the point people are making about husbands not necessarily being good birth partners is moot here and is one of those things that is great with hindsight but doesn't really help you with where you are at the moment. Your husband was your birth partner and he didn't do what you needed him to do.

He didn't attend antenatal classes with you. He didn't attend appointments with you. He didn't read the books you thought were important. He let hospital staff ignore you. He let hospital staff undermine you. He did not stand up for you. He did not listen to you (about the horrible nurse in SCBU). He actively went against agreements you had both made before the birth (when he looked). And he is failing you further by not properly listening to you now and getting hurt and defensive when you try to talk to him about this.

It doesn't matter what his reasons were for all of this. It doesn't matter if he has the best reasons in the world. What matters is that you felt so completely unsupported and let down by him that it is now affecting your relationship and you don't trust him anymore.

If I was you I would write everything down in a letter to him. If you write it down you can say exactly what you need to say without having to deal with feeling guilty like you do when you talk to him and you see that he is hurt and defensive. You can give him the letter and then go out for a while to let him read it and have a think. I would write about all the ways he has let you down but without being too blaming if you can help it. Concentrate on the action he took or the thing he said and then how it made you feel. For example... "we had explicitly agreed before the birth that you wouldn't look. When you looked I felt very hurt and betrayed because you had broken this agreement. There was nothing I could do to stop you from looking, I was completely powerless and I felt that you abused my trust and made me even more vulnerable by breaking your word and going against my wishes."

Then I would talk about what you need him to do for you now. I don't know what this might be but its important that you give him a way to at least try to make things better. Something that you can ask from him that he can give you to start to make up for the the things that you asked for that he didn't give you.

"I know this is very hard for you to read. Its very hard for me to tell you these things because I love you so much and I don't want to hurt you. But I need you to know how much you have hurt me so that we can start to rebuild the trust that we had in each other. I can't trust you properly again until you acknowledge how much you have hurt me with the mistakes that you have made. I know that you didn't mean to make them, I know that you were very scared too but they still hurt me deeply. In order to start trusting you again I just need to know that you have listened to me and understood how I feel. I am going to come back from the shops at 3.00. When I get back I will know that you have listened and understood if you tell me that you love me and you give me a very big hug." Or whatever it is that you need.

Best of luck x

GOod GOd springlamb What they did to your mother...

Oh I know, absolutely barbaric. I knew nothing of this until I eventually brought my own DS home from the hospital. It explained a lot about my beloved mum. I think my experience had brought back a lot of her own demons. She was kept for two weeks on a post-natal mum/baby ward until she walked out. A couple of years later she gave birth to my sister and was then put in a bed next to a young girl whose baby had died as 'she had had the experience'. Barbaric. Trauma? Not in the 1950s.
Now we are much better nowadays, but nowhere near perfect. We are asked at our 6 week check how we are feeling in ourselves but it is very easy to miss someone who is silently suffering, especially if their baby is doing well. And if the feelings don't emerge for some months, it's difficult to know where to turn. I struggled on like a zombie for 13 months before crumbling.

Sorry everyone, I'm doing the ironing - too much thinking time..
To Unwind - consult solicitors if you think it necessary. But it's not that which will heal your family. That will be a paper exercise with many months between bits of paper. And by the end of it you will realise that you can't litigate for feelings, only for £. It is the therapy for PTSD that will do the healing. The week-in, week-out therapy. I told my story scores of times for two and a half years and each time in the telling some other little part got resolved. And I got slowly better.

Again, it goes back to the root of trauma, the essence -which is mothers' feelings must be listened to. Mothers must be respected, before, during and after birth.

I wanted to refer to a silly comment made earlier on this thread about medical staff having to make snap decisions and overriding the mothers.
No decision needs to be made without asking the mothers' opinion first and running it by her.
The US has most highly medicalised birthing environments on the planet, and spends more money than any other country on birth technology, and yet it has the second highest infant mortality rate on the planet and it ranks 42nd in the world, after some African countries for its maternal mortality rate.
Amnesty INternational sited many reasons for this, but what interested me was that they said the US was particularly bad for its unwillingness listening to the needs and wishes of the birthing mother.
I should imagine this could cause helath problems during and after the birth because mothers know their bodies (pains, feelings etc) and their opinions must be taken seriously by medical staff (who after all, are only there to help and assist the mother. Gone are the days of the 50s when doctors were Gods)

sakura - regarding the second birth experience.

I think, no actually I know that the biggest difference was that DH was clued up and knew exactly what was going to happen.

He had my birth plan seared into his brain, and he knew exactly what I wanted to happen if the baby was in distress and high in the uterus, if the baby was descended and in distress, if they wanted to induce, if the first stage stalled, if the second stage stalled, under which conditions I would consent to episiotomy, the lot.

We had gone through my old notes with a very senior midwife. She explained a lot of stuff to DH (like the fact that if they were standing around discussing the instrumental then the baby couldn't have been in distress, they would have been running into theatre instead). Plus she OK'd our new birth plan (actually the same as the old one :().

DD2 was better positioned and I was able to push her out (with some problems). But I felt that even she'd got stuck, that DH would have backed me up and we'd have had the delivery that I wanted (while keeping the baby safe - a couple of clauses in the birth plan were for the very rare instances where I would have accepted them hauling me around if it kept DD2 alive).

DH was a fantastic birth partner the second time around, and was so proud of me for coping with the difficult delivery and kept telling me how great I was. :) It was very healing for him too to have been able to really step up to the plate and be the birth partner that I needed, and redeem himself too, I suppose.

SpringLamb -- what moving posts, and what wisdom.

I'm so sad for your poor mother.

springlamb...your poor mother

I could weep for her (and have, a little bit)

Ta muchly, she was a tough old bird, and deserved better. Don't we all...
Hope you're continuing to talk Unwind but don't to regale your DH with all the funny and fab things DD's been up to today.