Can't forgive him for birth trauma

[Unwind]

And I know it wasn't really his fault.

My DH wiggled out of going to antenatal classes and appointments with me, and would not read the books I tried to make him read, but otherwise did his best to be supportive.

That best was not good enough - he let hospital staff ignore and undermine me during labour and after our daughter's birth, when she was in SCBU. It was an unbelievable nightmare to me, and I did not stand up for myself or for her - so why do I feel so bitter that he did not? We were both naive, we trusted the professionals, who were in positions of authority, we were first time parents and did not have confidence in ourselves in that role.

But I have not been able to feel the same way about my DH since then. How can I get over this? I have tried counselling, it did not fix things.

"The registrar told my DH to come have a look - he said no, we had agreed beforehand that he would not, I said I did not want him to look, both midwife and registrar told him again to come and look, so he did. He apologised afterwards, but doesn't think that was a big deal. I felt humiliated at the time, moments before our daughter was born - not so much because he looked, but because he went against my explicit request."

i dont think it's fair to hold this againt your DH - lot s of plans ar e made before birth especially a first one - but hard to stick to in the throes of the moment. there had already been trauma - the medics are telling himm "do this" - what was he supposed to do?

agree more trauma counselling. also agre on teh oint s made about you asking him to pay a role in your work - why would he do this? is he in your line of work? is he a supervisor at your work place?

more importantly -

how is you daughter now?
does she have any special needs/developmental delays/disabilities due to the birth?
how is the relationship between dad and dd?
how much does he help with her?
what do you do together as a family?
how do you both feel towards her?

you need to focus on now - trauma counselling for he birth but find a way - with help - to move forward. focus on today's issues and bringing up your daughter...

if there are broader issues of trust or whether you feel DH would stand up for your dd - then address those.

Again, just thoughts, to kick around ... .

Unwind, you sound as though you feel violated by this experience, at the level of body and psyche. Unsurprisingly. When I say "sound" and "feel" I don't mean this isn't real, or justified, I simply mean it's at the "top" of what you say, coming through "first", and so it suggests it is important.

I wonder if it is the violation that is significant? It might lead to a desire to "close up", to make yourself invulnerable, un-hurtable, not having to rely on others, inviolable.

Part of being human is being able to not only trust ourselves, but to accept that we need, and must accept, help from others. It's a very deep thing. For many of us, it is an extra challenge when something has happened to us to make us wary of this very basic human need and dynamic.

Some of us have been vulnerable at some point, and, instead of help, and aid, we have had the misfortune to have that trust violated, and our vulnerability exploited in some way, or the "help" proffered not be help at all. It is then very difficult, but very necessary, to learn to be open towards others, and to trust, again. But it is not an easy process at all.

And part of that leaning to be open towards others is based in an acceptance that others are equally vulnerable, limited, and needing of support at times. That, really, is what being fully adult and human is about. I don't mean that in any trivial way. It is really, really hard.

I think it takes time and help to get there if you have been through an awful experience.

If you do go for further counselling, as an individual, as a couple, can I just suggest asking very carefully about the form of counselling. For example, Relate tend to do a lot of CBT-style counselling, which I don't think would be helpful.

I think people are over-focusing on the comments Upwind made about her DH helping her with work. Those were made specifically in response to ChippingIn asking her to think of "manly", protective and supportive stuff that he could hypothetically do to try to build up that kind of relationship again, and she couldn't think of much that could fall into that category.

I feel for you so much, what an awful experience you have been through, I second everyone who had said about getting help from the Birth Trauma association. What happened to you and your daughter wasn't right whasoever.

As for your poor husband, I feel for him too. This was a crisis situation, in which he may have feared that you or your baby would die or be damaged, and the fact that he didn't adhere to everything agreed beforehand and was torn about what to do on the spur of the moment seems reasonable, but obviously not desirable from your perspective. For what it's worth, I was mad at my husband for the opposite, for reminding me that in my birth plan I said I didn't want pethidine and not encouraging me to have pain relief. He was trying to help but I felt he was unsupportive about the changing situation and about the amount of pain I was in.So, sometimes husbands can't win in these traumatic, crisis situations.

I was very angry at my husband's behaviour in the weeks after my second birth (I felt let down and unsupported). I felt so angry I thought I'd never forgive him, even though I can see his perspective on why he acted the way he did. Time is a great healer (and 20 months is not a long time really when you are that distressed). Talking about being angry also helps, I have felt much better since telling him how much he hurt me (even though he doesn't agree with my interpretation of events). I hope you find a way to get a handle on this.

op, i feel your pain.

you expect the person cloest to you to stick up for you and protect you when vunerable.

he didn't put the effort in, by doing any research before hand making you feel alone

im not sure you can ever really get over things like this tbth

i think you can get over it - if he makes up for it now e.g - how is he with the dd?

was he a reluctant father? sounds like it.... but how is he now as a father and partner ?

To give more info, my DH did pressure me to have an epidural, because he could not bear to see me in pain. With hindsight agreeing to that was a huge mistake - I was probably in transition when it was administered. The gas and air was broken, and could not be replaced, DH could not bear to see me in so much pain, and neither of us knew I was so close to giving birth. I had a top up too, just before the birth, when they said that I would have an emergency section. It meant that I could feel and move nothing from the arm pits down for several hours after the birth, and physically lacked confidence in tending to my DD - I was afraid to try and pick her up myself. When DH had gone home and staff would not help, I was still too nervous to pick her up, I mostly had feeling back, but was trembling and unsure of myself. I also had not eaten in days, bar a single slice of toast just after the birth.

I don't blame my DH in the slightest for pressuring me to have the epidural. I think that, with the information he had, that was the right thing to do, though with hindsight it was wrong. I do think he should have tried to insist on staying longer with me, and on finding me something to eat.

Cestlavie - I am begining to believe that my daughter is fine

The prognosis we were given was basically one of uncertainty - they said that it was impossible to predict the extent of hypoglycaemic brain damage, but that we could hope that she would be fine. She was very late hitting most milestones (but not fine motor skills, so not global developmental delay). She has been discharged from her paediatrician, but referred on for physio and speech and language therapy, where there is a waiting list. Since then she has come on a lot, and I think she is catching up with her peers, though still behind if I look at the milestone charts.

She is making good progress though, and we are very proud of her. DH is a devoted father, we work well as a family, and do a lot together. He bonded with her straight away, it took me longer, but it happened.

I am proof that you can get over it. I am even over my traumatic birth. I am bored of it - except when someone boasts on the childbirth board that it is all about preparation and that anyone who had done hypnobirthing/yoga/read Ina May Gaskin would have the same experience.

But I am still a bit about some of the apologists for her DH. He was frightened of her pain and under pressure from the professionals, but he still did something wrong. He deserves to be forgiven, but she deserves to have him admit that he was wrong and do what she needs him to do to get over it. All of the "it's worse for the person watching" crap (heard on RL, not on this thread BTW) makes me really angry. DH wasn't the one waking up in a cold sweat at night from nightmares about the delivery, and wasn't the one in permanent discomfort. I deserved compassion.

While I'm on the subject, I also had a lot of "your baby is healthy and that's all that matters, put it out of your head" stuff from doctors afterwards, which I also think was wrong. I was damaged, and it was very likely at the time that the damage was permanent. I heard two messages from that, one that I wasn't important and that I didn't count any more, now that I was a mother, and the other that if I truly loved my baby that I wouldn't care that I couldn't ever have sex with my DH again.

it was not your DHs call re the epidural, it was the MWs etc.. if they gave you an epidural in transition, then that is not a call your DH is responsible for

havng doulaed at a number of births and supported women postanatally, i can say that it is not the 'fault' of your DH that he let you down.

i've seen even the most prepared dads just shut down in labur and freeze or just nod along with the MWs even if it's not what was discussed beforehand

it is utterly terrifying for the father to see his wife in pain, and possibly screaming, and he has to stand there powereless, OR can encvourage more pain relief or go along with the HCPs as he beleives they will make it all better

you need to find a way to move on and a therapist specialising in birth trauma is a good start

but there is no magic wand, you have to face painful things, and work with the tools yoiu are given

many parents don't go to AN classes or read all the books and even if oyu do, it is no guarantee that things will be perfect

i do think it is worht re opening your complaint

I am struggling to accept he's done anything wrong, certainly not deliberately wrong, unless I have missed something.

why is his fear.feeling out of his comfort zone any less real and deserving of support?

you say 'we were both naive..did not have the confidence'

so you know deep down i think, there is no real fault or blame

exactly mrstittlemouse... he deserves to be forgiven and the fact that he is a doting father is marvellous BUT the fact remains that he let OP down and should be able to properly listen to her, accept responsibility and offer her reassurance, so they can properly mend this fracture in their relationship.

you've not answered the question about counselling unwind- why did you have solo counselling and why not arrange something so you can talk about it together?

lulumaam- in MY eyes, he's at fault due to the combination of not attending antenatal, not reading any books/info and then not offering support during labour (no doubt not helped by the first two thing)...individually they're not heinous acts but combined, they left the OP feeling isolated and unsupported.

that's my perception of it anyway.

i think it is really hard pre DCs to understand why and how to prepare fully

i've also known plenty of parents who've attnded various antenatal classes and felt theyu're unprepared/confused/more frightened than before

and reading/atntending classes does not guarantee a great outcome

i understand the OP feels let down, but pointing the finger and blaming him, is different to feeling you didn't get the right support

i find it hard on occasion to discuss things with HCPs in the throes of a labour, esp if things are spiralling out of control or taking a negative turn.. expecing your equally terrified husband to suddeny be able to put their own fears aside and become stronga nd assertive if perhaps they are concerned that arguing will delay things or make HCPs more hostile is unreasonable IMO

Having no direct experience of this, I'll stick to one point. Your posts scream PTSD, Unwind. One of its effects is to rob you of feeling in charge of yourself & your life. It's a horrible thing to have happen - and you are right to blame the hospital, imo, they DID this TO you PTSD also makes you hypervigilant (constantly on the alert for threats) which is very tiring and certainly not conducive to happy relationships.

However, the thing is done and what to do about it? Seek specialist therapy. If you can find a birth trauma specialist that you trust, great. Otherwise, please seek a therapist with PTSD experience. There are several techniques that can act quickly to release pent-up feelings, and allow you to take a step back from the anxiety & blame. The right therapist will also be able to help you address the issue with your H constructively.

You might choose to sue the hospital, but please consider this after you've found your therapist and addressed the psychological shock. Wishing you well.

id ont think all the reading and preparation can actually preapre you for the first birth, espec if things start to go wrong.

op - i am glad the prognosis looks good, but it is traumatic to have a baby with (possible long term) brain issues and i am wondering if all the focus on the birth is also tied up with this? that it could have been prevented?

otoh blinks is suggesting that you end your H to acknowledge and "say sorry" for what he did or didnt do - to move on?

thing is... thinking of things my ex has done - no amount of sorry can make up for what happened- it is more about accepting what happened, beieving that "next time" it will be different - and moving forward.... ?

"DH is a devoted father, we work well as a family, and do a lot together. He bonded with her straight away, "

there is a lot there that is good, to hold onto.

Unwind - Hi again.

I have just caught up on your thread, sorry I kind of posted and ran before, we've had guests from overseas so it's been a bit hectic!

A few thoughts:

• I still don't think it's too late to write to someone higher up in the Hospital/Heath sector to make another formal complaint. I think you would be able to state your case more clearly now and demand to know what they have done/will do to improve their shitty service - name names - get it all off of your chest as far as the medical staff are concerned. They let you down badly, very badly and it's not at all suprising you are still reeling from the birth.

• Go to Birth Trauma counselling - they are trained to help you through this exact situation x

• I still think you need your DH to be 'a man' again in your eyes, to take some control of things and to do 'manly' things. I do not see this as you wanted your husband to act like your Dad. I think that no matter how equal we see ourselves (and make no mistake I am fiercely independent - no sappy little need-a-man-to-do-it sook at all), I do believe there is something primal in us that (most of) us need a man who acts like a man :)

Your DH could have done more to prepare himself (by attending classes & reading books) and even if it hadn't helped, I think you would feel more like he had tried and he had done his best, whereas right now, it seems he opted out of most of the pre-baby/birth/new baby stuff and wasn't there for you, when he could have been. I can see why you are angry with him, whilst not entirely blaming him for how it went.

I can also see that you need to find a way to explain all of this to him, because I can see why someone who hasn't read about how traumatic births can be and the after affects would 'Oh for goodness sake, it was a bad birth, but get over it - it's been 20 months!!' and how he wouldn't want to talk about it again because he feels guilty that he didn't meet your needs - even if he doesn't really understand. I think couples counselling with someone who specialises in birth trauma really is the best way to help yourselves get through this.

You can't help how you feel but you can seek to change it x

I can see where you're coming from regarding the epidural. If he agreed with the staff about it then that is still removing control away from you. It was nobody's call except yours whether to have the epidural or not. Allowing the staff to go ahead and do it is almost as bad as pressurizing you to have an epidural.

I went through a lot of this with my DH. As I said, we are fine now, but I did have to process the trauma i.e the lack of control.

IN many other respects I had a good birth, so I am lucky, but I couldn't ignore how let down I'd felt by my husband. I felt her really had to "get it" before I could move on. I don't think burying it serves anything, and I don't think pretending it was okay helps either. I think acknowledging how let down you feel, then overcoming it together is the best way forward.
I only felt comfortable enough to have a second child after I'd worked it through with DH. I would have been too anxious to labour properly and peacefully without sorting it all out in my head first.

The second birth was brilliant. DH didn't call his mother and just looked after DD while I laboured, popping in now and again to see if I was okay. Lots of women say their second birth heals the previous birth.

i specifically said birth trauma counselling unwind - i don't think you particularly need couples counselling initially (you need to explore your own birth experience first and see where you are at then). your dh actually sounds as though as he is pretty sorted - you have obviously discussed this with him and he explained to you how he was led by the medical staff - trusting that they knew what they were doing etc. i'm not sure that he needs any help, i do think that you are not listening to him.

dd2 spent 5 weeks on scbu and had no suck/swallow/gag initially, so was ng fed/ suctioned to clear airway every time her saliva pooled and she turned blue etc. (neonatal szs etc)- the hospital took her away on the crash trolley (we also had a 'got to get this baby out now' moment) and didn't tell us if she was alive or dead for 4 hours. dh ate toast - he figured if there was anything urgent they would let us know.

we just deal with things in different ways - i am a control freak (i demanded a pump and started expressing straight away, even though the hospital told me to go to sleep and they would sort it out tomorrow - it was my way of being 'in control' of the situation) and it wouldn't have occurred to me to get dh to be my advocate. but then - i don't make birth plans, as i believe flexibility is important (until i decide otherwise, lol)

birth trauma. ptsd. you need to talk this all through with a professional that understands these things. not relate. not couples counselling.

fwiw, i took 6 years to get some counselling, as i just got on with it. it explained a lot about the subsequent relationshio between dh and i (amongst other thigns - nothing ever exists in isolation) but i hadn't realise just how much that particular birth (i'd had 3) affected me. well, that's not strictly true (given the flashbacks etc) but i had certainly been ignoring it and choosing to focus on other stuff.

Poor you , ive had a similar experience.

My birth went badly wrong due to mismanagement ,amongst other things , i had a retained placenta and they attempted to manually remove it in the delivery room with no anasthetic. They ushered students in to watch against my wishes and a catheter was inserted against my wishes , it was truly horrific .He watched all this closeley even though i told him i didnt want him at the business end . My exh said nothing at any point , and apart from telling me to " shush " and occasionally joining in with the bullying he said nothing at any point. I felt like i was being raped and was utterley traumatized.

At one point he was told to leave and did so obediantly ( although the students stayed ).Afterwards he ushered his mother in while i was half naked and sobbing . We , or so i thought , had talked about all this beforehand and he knew that i might need him to speak up for me , and knew also that the mil ( who i hate ) was not welcome in the delivery room under any circumstances .

I tried to speak to him about how let down i felt and he dismissed it or whined that it had been hard for him . I know a few people have said that speak for yourself , and that its hard for a man to watch his wife in pain , but i dont see it like that . Its impossible to be heard if you have bad medical staff , that was his job that day , to stick up for me , and he chose not to , prefering to keep quiet than to have any confrontation. He knew damm well . He wasnt a spectater , he wasnt experiencing this himself , he should have been my advocate and my support .

Really it was typical of his overall behaviour , i realised that although he nodded along when i was talking , he wasnt really listening , and also that in a similar situation he could not be relied upon as he would have no doubt put himself first again.

I would agree with others about getting in touch with the birth trauma association , and i would also persue another complaint if you feel strong enough to , Pals are very good .

Unwind you sound so angry and upset, and you have obviously been through a really tough time.

As an aside from some of the excellent advice you've been given, can I suggest that you think about the language you use when talking to you DH about this? I suspect that if he feels he is being attacked (especially if he already has guilt) then it might make him more defensive and less likely to accept responsibility.

Have you tried using techniques such as "I messages", they can be a really useful way of expressing the impact of a situation on yourself - without implying blame in the listener.

Try this link for more info

I think your looking for someone to blame because you are absolutely gutted, devasated, and sickened by the whole experience.

Having had two bad births, second very traumatic I know your pain and the need to draw on your negativity towards someone/something which is very natural.

A few points to think about

1. not many men attend classes, cant think of any I know 'read the book' not forgetting that these classes are "in the perfect world" I can never remember intervention being mentioned and wonder if they are really that helpful at all.

2.Once your in Main delivery you are in the hands of the professionals and protocals, legislation etc has to be followed. You can forget any birthplan.

1. Expecting anyone to pipe up in a pressurised situation - "your needs" - it doesnt happen. Its natural to put your trust in someone who knows better. and

1. First births are in most cases dreadful.

Yes, if you could turn back time (I am sure you can close yr eyes and dream of the perfect delivery "as see on TV") everything would be perfect - but would it have been????

It sounds like he is not the man you thought he was, and dealing with that realisation is incredibly painful for you. As far as I'm concerned I think your expectation that he would stick up for you in your time of need (and which is hardly a gender-based expectation - surely any man or woman would stick up for a partner in a position of vulnerability) is not unreasonable. I think the two of you need counselling to work through these issues.

Hang on .... you say he didnt support you.. yet you also say this

To give more info, my DH did pressure me to have an epidural, because he could not bear to see me in pain.

Hardly the actions of a guy trying to undermine his prtner or not support her... he was trying.

I don't think he sees himself as needing it, or that it is a problem in our marriage, he thinks it is a problem with me.

The problem is with you... and you are refusing more therapy as well. He is wrong about the probelm not being in the marriage, as long as you have this misdirected angst his marriage def has problems.

And as for expecting an apology for him.... do you think it would be fair if he was expecting an apology from you for the way you acted? Like you have said, you both made mistakes... people would be horrified if he was blaming you for all this, and rightly so, but it cuts both ways.

I am going to stop now, because quite honestly I think you are being horrible to your husband, and quite possibly your daughter if you end this marriage. All because you want to assign blame to an innocent man... and refuse therapy.

Good luck... but even more good luck to your husband.

There is a potential conversation that goes like this, Footlong:
"My god, that was hell, what bastard medics, I should never have had that epidural, the timing was wrong."
"I know, I saw what you went through, it was awful, I should never have agreed to the epidural. I didn't know. I feel awful."
This conversation does not appear to have happened.