(d)h threatened to hit me

[itstimmy]

Yes I provoked him.

When we met he said he had threatened to hit a gf before. And he said if another lady talked to him in a provoking way he would hit her, as apparently 'women who provoke secretly want to be hit'.

There have been lots of small things over the last 7 years I have wanted to speak to him about, I have, to no avail, he will just cut me off with a threatening look or sarcasum. And there have been a number of big things over the years I have had to keep a lid on when really I wanted to go ballistic with him. This has led to me simmering with resentment and anger at him, I just want to speak out and be heard and for him to actually take some action...but I dare not for this threat.

So yesterday it was a minor incident, I have been 'needling' him about it and making a few snippy comments, and in front of dd which I'm not proud of but I can hardly tell her not to do something when her dad is...it needs both of them to stop and have spoken to both indvidually about it. And I made one last comment yesterday, I was just incredibly pissed off but could not tell him how annoyed I was due to constant threat so made a pointed 'look what has happened, don't do it to the next one' comment and he got up from table and went to other room.

About 15 min later he comes to room where I'm folding clothes and warns me that I nearly got hit. To stop provoking him or I will get hit. He was not threatening me or trying to bully me he was warning me. And that it would hurt (said that a few times) and we have two small children in the house and that he did not want to hit me but I was provoking him into it. He was v scary, as he rarely makes eye contact and he did yesterday. First I tried to put on a I'm not scared leave me alone look but he told me I was provoking him, so I told him in a calmer (upset way, I was scared) why I had done it and it was wrong to have provoked but I had done it because he has been ignoring what I've been saying and I just want him to listen to me. In the end after a few more 'warnings' I asked him to leave, so (cursing myself now) I left the room and went to bathroom (door shut) so quietly cry my heart out, then when he went out drinking last night to do it again. He has left house again for an hour now and I just want to cry again. When he's in room I just start meaningless things like stirring porridge, feel a bit shakey.

I don't know what to do now. Does this mean after 7 years he is going to start to hit me? What will count as 'provoking'? Will going out all the time be provoking as I don't want to be in the same room as him. There have been a number of incidents over the years that have made me want to leave but I think this could take the biscuit.

On another note I don't think he loves or cares for me which is probably also where the provoking comes from...

I feel humiliated and scared. Wish I could threaten to smack him one...but even if I had the advantage I would not.

I know I can be a martyr and annoying but what the hell do I do now? I cannot move on without him actually taking responsibility for his actions in the house without getting so wound up he won't listen to me and then I get wound up and want to vent but can't.

What a mess.

He's back shortly so if I go quiet its for a reason.

And I married him because he reminded me of abusive dad...

Just rechecked this...I think I can see why he wants to hit me...but I just want him to LISTEN. And the provocation is down to that...you know where you just want to go "AAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! DON'T DO THAT!!!!' and then whatever it is gets blown over, no big row, just a quick vent...imagine keeping a lid on that for 7 years...and there have been some whoppers where I wanted to just go completely wild and walk out that I've had to keep a lid on. Am excusing my behaviour now...how the hell do I get him to listen...thanks for reading so far...

Have lurked here, and just want to say you're very brave. Also -- forget about keeping on good terms. This can only happen if he is willing to have it happen. There is nothing you can do to make him more or less willing. His choice entirely. You are a decent person who managed to stay married to him for all these years; my guess is you could get along with anyone. But he has a choice to make here now to accommodate himself or not.

Also -- go for broke wrt money/house/financial contribution for the girls. He will only do what he is forced to do by you and your solicitor. He will not play nice. Don't be tempted to either.

Narcs will use children as pawns, will lie with a completely straight face and believe every word that comes from their own lips, and will shamelessly minimise everything that can't be lied about and denied. You have to strap on your gloves and be prepared to go 13 rounds here for the sake of your children.

When the dust settles, or even before, I recommend counselling for the girls, as a narcissist is a very damaging person to have as a parent, and they will have seen and absorbed plenty over the years.

1. Drop non mol order, he will promise to do all it says instead.

1. Reconcile and go to relate

1. If I do the above he will move out at weekend so I can move back in.

1. Drop occupancy order.

Solicitor asked for my response 'it begins with 'F''

So diplomatically worded reply is going back.

1. Non mol order stays

1. Relationship irretrivably broken down, therefore no point going to relate

1. If you can move out at weekend that means I can move in when...

4....I get the occupancy order on friday, will he be there or not?

Part of me is going 'YES! He still wants me after me leaving him with kids, I am forgiven! He's going to listen and change and become the man I've always hoped he would be!' But the other part is saying...

a) did not ask about children or about any contact with them

b) first time in ten days he has expressed any desire to be around me again

c) If he does not divorce me he can keep teh house/car/money/control.

d) Where is the apology and acknowledgement of what he has done is wrong and the impact he will have read it had on me?

If he wants me back, well he will just have to a) take back his vile views on women wanting to be hit b) change the rest of his weird views c) Acknowledge and apologise for the distress he has caused me and the girls d) just change...

And get this...I know he would not hit a person on teh street or even another man, but he would hit his own wife. What a hypocrite, we always said that you treat family better than you do the person on the street.

Attila and alloverit - suspect those things are next...

Hi math - thanks for the advice. I'm intending to let the solicitor get what she can, I have no job and have two girls to bring up.

I've experienced him minimising things, and saying one thing but doing another. And yes I will remember about the good terms, his choice, I'm willing to but still going to get what I can. Money does not last forever.

Girls are 4 and 18 mth so still young, I should have a bigger influence being their main carer.

Update on dd1 - cuddling me at night now! unheard of...could barely move for having both girls cuddling me, and the cat around...v cosy 4 in a double bed!

Bless him hey! Still trying to take the control back. Very glad you didn't fall for it.
I know part of you wants him to miss you and need you but he really isn't capable of feeling like that. He hasn't even mentioned your DDs FFS. Piece of work.

I think you'll find your relationship with DD1 will get better and better and I wouldn't be surprised if secretly she is pleased to be out of you H's clutches.

Well done you and good luck!

Good news to hear that you're having such quality time with DD1, in particular.

Also, glad to hear you're still seeming very feisty.

I'm assuming your If is tongue-in-cheek, as we all know he's incapable of meeting your four conditions.

Sadly, he's doing what his solicitor will have advised him to do, as the best chance of getting whatever it is that he wants. Even if the solicitor thinks h is a toe-rag, they have to do their best for h.

Stay strong xx

itstimmy - I don't have much useful advice to give you but I had to post and say how brave I think you are and that this is absolutely the best thing for your daughters

I am an adult survivor of a narc abusive step father and it almost damaged me. I was just your dd1 age when he took over my care. The behaviour of your abuser towards your dd1 was grooming not real love. He was grooming her to meet his own needs, maybe for adoration or maybe worse (he may have started to abuse her when she developed her own identity and opinions). This is what my step/adoptive father did to me. I was daddy's little girl and then one day the abuse started on me as well as my adoptive mother

The threats to hit
The conrol and manipulation
The name calling
The sexual abuse

I wish my adoptive mum had left as you have and been as strong as you. She just ended up being part of the abuse she needed this narc bully so badly.

I am rambling but I am sending you a big hug and my deepest admiration

Aha [ - so essentially he needs a full scale personality transplant in order for the relationship to resume, and the likelihood of this is probably 1000/1.

Roseability you are so right wrt the love or grooming question. Timmy, your girls will possibly have a period where they will really test you as they realise 'ding dong the witch is dead' and they try to figure out the lie of the land now. During the adjustment period, lots and lots of cuddles are in order.

Keep your head up and your resolve strong. I love your solicitor. She sounds fab.

Wow Timmy. He really is a piece of work. So glad you are feeling so strong. Good for you! [hgrin]

I love the picture of the four of you cuddled up in bed. How liberating for your little girls to feel all that love and being able to express it, out of H's control.

Hope tomorrow goes okay. [hsmile]

Timmy,

There's no doubt in my mind that your influence will outweigh or at least dilute, the abusive aspects of your H's personality. I've read that the real problem of emotional damage to children is where the they have NO balanced close relationships, so there is nothing for them to measure against.

Surround them with your love and good example, with the positive and loving elements of your family and friends. THESE people will be your dc's security and their Dad while still being in their lives, will hopefully be simply a very flawed person to be perhaps tolerated (or not tolerated if they so choose).

So sweet to hear that dd1 is cuddling...I have this horrible vision of when her Dad used to insist on putting her to bed, how she might have felt she wasn't allowed to ask for you. How perhaps, even then, at that young age, she was feeling intimidated.

Hi Timmy

Just want to wish you all the best for tomorrow.

He will probably attend tomorrows hearing if he is getting decent legal advice.

I'm assuming your solicitor is going to do most of the talking tomorrow, so just sit tight and try not to let him intimidate you.

Re the Non Mol Order, try and get your solicitor to ensure 'power of arrest' is attached to it. That means the police will arrest him if he even shows his face, rather than him actually have to do anything aggressive.

You will definitely get the Occ Order...no doubt.

If he is serious about reconciling, then he wouldn't be asking for the above two Orders to be dropped, it doesn't make any difference to him if he means to obey them.

Also, once you are back in house, keep a detailed diary of all contact received, especially if it is hostile or relevant to the DCs.

Legal residency of the kids will automatically go with you for now (because you physically have the kids), but he can contest this in the future and apply for sole or joint residency. You will need detailed records of everything in case this happens.
A residency application is a complex, expensive process, he will need at least 10-20k for a full case and it could take months.
A CAFCASS officer would assess both parents, their homes, their ability to care for the DCs. After several hearings, residency will be decided. It isn't a quick process, so isn't majorly helpful in the short term. One to think about in a few weeks, and as you have the kids he will have to petition for it.

In the meantime, any contact he has with the kids, MUST be supervised. What are his parents like, could they be trusted to assist? Do not allow any access at all until you are sure.

You could also formally request that he attends counselling as a prerequisite to contact with your DCs.

I would be very wary of him at present, reading through your whole thread, he comes across as quite controlled and vengeful. I reckon he will fight you financially and for access to the children.

I know you believe him to love his kids, but his personality disorders are obstructing his real ability to love, so his contact with the kids is manipulative and destructive until he gets help. So don't beat yourself up about arranging contact until YOU are 100% certain he wont do anything daft. Imagine the crap that he might be saying to them. It could well be several months before he sees the kids, don't get stressed by this, just provide lots of love and only say positive, supportive things about him when they ask questions.
Dont say anything dramatic, if anything, mundane fibs...like Daddy is 'away working' or similar, no need for kids this age to know much more.
This will help minimise impact on them and when they do see him again, they wont feel unnerved.

This is your high risk time honey, you need to see him as a real risk. I too am concerned that he may use your kids as weapons if he gets a chance

In any event, if anything at all happens, report it to the police immediately, even a nasty phone call or text.

If you need any advice at all just shout.

You started this thread with the words 'Yes, I provoked him'. You have come such a long long way to regaining your self esteem and self respect. I know how frightening this process is, you have been incredibly brave.

Enjoy loving those kids!! xxxxxx

I couldn't manage to post reasonably yesterday - children now allowed to cuddle their mummy- hope it's not too late to wish you everything you (and solicitor) want from the hearing.

stay strong and stick to the legal route. you cannot trust this man.

see what he is saying six months down the line...

p.s. of course he wants you - as a thing, an object, not you as a person to respect. status quo and "getting back to normal" was always going to be better for him.

but it would not be so for you. you have a taste of new life...go for it.

Itstimmy

All this man loves is his own reflection. You, the children infact everyone and everything else is of no consequence.

If he is NPD then counselling for you both would be a complete non starter not just to say a bad idea. He would not attend any sessions NOR WILL WANT TO SEEK HELP (because he after all is always right!). Such people are very averse to therapy and do not respond at all well to clinical analysis.

Counselling for your own self is adviseable and should be sought in the near future.

He will try to control and manipulate you till the end of his days because you have had the gall (I would say guts) to leave him. I can imagine his parents are also dysfunctional to say the least and if this is indeed the case they should have no involvement.

Very best of luck with the hearing; keep us posted as to developments.

yours in stripey socks!

Thanks scallops :) I'm still convinced he does care for them...he's just being v logical about it all, they are with mum therefore fine and nothing he can do anyway...

Isitmeor - if was tongue in cheek. He will have asked solicitor best way to keep house etc maybe girls

Thanks Rose, I'm sorry all that happened to you, your mum should have stood up to him and sent him packing, got to say in this case I did it to keep me safe, I don't think the girls are at risk but I am aware of the potential issues that could arise and if I do find anything amiss I won't be letting it go. Thanks for the hug :)

Math - Yes personality transplant is right...I want someone loving kind and gentle, not a constant sarcastic 'wit', no love affection or caring. Solicitor is very nice :) backs me up 100% She immediately pounced on fact he could move out this weekend, bit of a slip up by his solicitor that one...

Thanks alloverit :) v cuddly last night too

Mumonthenet = hi :) I'm a surviver of emotional abusive family as is h, I like to think I've come out with slightly more empathy tho...dd1 always asked for him, it was her routine, but I gradually put in place a 2nd routine where I went in after h and sat with her and talked for 20 min...

Celestinelass - Will be letting solictor do the talking...don't want to get into emotional dialogue.

Non mol has arrest attached already. Will keep diary, good idea.

I do feel he will be okay with the children, he's too attached to the business do go anywhere, and if I'm taking half his money he's going to be working flat out to get more made again...he's a workaholic...and no I would not trust his parents.

Councelling, well you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It would not work. He knows it all, he would be trying to teach the councellor their job...

I feel he will fight financially, but not for the girls, he has work to think about, can't work and look after girls, that's a womans job.

I will be calling police at first opportunity because I know he will take the first sign of weakness as a way in. And the orders only work if I see them enforced.

Anyway update again, this morning have told dd1 that when we go home daddy won't be there so mummy can stay safe. She has been crying and saying she misses him and misses sitting on his knee and him reading bedtime stories...been v emotional. She has said she is confused over who to stay with. So told her mummy and daddy won't mind her choosing to stay with one over the other, its up to her to choose and its okay for her to do that, that things just because they are different does not mean they will be worrying or not nice, just different and she will get used to it and it may even be better in some ways. Oh and we both love them very much and its understandable she misses daddy. Even cried in front of her...something I don't do but my mate recommended I do sometimes...

got to go and do something now...girls will be arguing and restless!

thank you so much for all your posts xxx

Timmy, so pleased to hear that you are still fighting headstrong for yourself and your girls. You are an inspiration...Pleased you got non mol order and occupancy order should be a doddle. Good luck tomorrow. What the other posters have written also strikes a chord with me as my exh is a narc too. I am going to go with no contact at all for my DS12 due to the manipulation and emotional abuse he put our DS through during the time he refused to bring him back home and argue that this is not suitable for our DS's emotional wellbeing. I am so nervous about it though as I will be representing myself again this time as I really cannot afford to pay the legal fees. I am sure I will be fine but it is all so nerve wrecking.

its timmy, you may want to check out the "survivors of NPD relationships thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1033653-NPD-Abusive-partner-Recovery-thread?pg=26

"So told her mummy and daddy won't mind her choosing to stay with one over the other, its up to her to choose and its okay for her to do that, that things just because they are different does not mean they will be worrying or not nice, just different and she will get used to it and it may even be better in some ways."

I do know what I'm talking about here Timmy and I'm trying to help by saying this:

Four years old is far too young to have the responsibility for making any such choices - be careful.

Children need to feel safe in the knowledge that their mums and dads know what they are doing. They need their parents to be in charge in order for them to feel secure.

I'm sorry, but you know better what's best for your four year old child than she does.

You are doing so well, by the way, keep going. x

agree with toni if she is only four - i thought she was seven for some reason - but even at seven you lay down the rules... and she doesnt get to "choose" until she older....

the clear thing is that "I am going to arrange with daddy so that you WILL see daddy on this day and that day each week [mark on big calendar etc - if he then doesnt turn up whatever then be truthful about it] . it is fine for you to go stay with daddy when daddy has his place sorted out. daddy will look forward to seeing you and I will look forward to seeing you when you come home again"

maybe get the "two of everything book by baette cole. but first, you need to be certain that daddy will have a place for them to go see him and is willing to do that.

so far he hasnt seen them right?

so right now the focus is on you reasuring her that "mummy is arranging with daddy for you to see him. it wont be at home but it will be somewhere else and it will be soon"

it is jumping the gun to talk about her staying with him /choosing who to be with when you havent sorted out housing etc and dont know where he will go when you get the occupancy order.... is there some place in public he could see dc eg soft play, with someone else around to supervise?

and agree with toni it isnt her choice at this age - you need a set regualr schedule fo contact sorted out, yes, but it will be yours and ex's choice of how when and where - not hers, at this age.

ps you doing well you are you know .

can you arrange a contact session with someone else supervising? a friend/relative? meeting in park or soft play?

Timmy All the best for tomorrow :)

Some fine advice there from cestlavie and Toni regarding not putting the decision of who your DDs live with on their shoulders though.

More than anything else, the girls need to know that you are lovingly in charge, and are making good decisions for them. They need the feeling of being taken care of.

You sound as if your head is solidly on your shoulders here wrt boundaries, but what Celestinelass says is sooooo true:

'This is your high risk time honey, you need to see him as a real risk. I too am concerned that he may use your kids as weapons if he gets a chance'
-- He may well be a workaholic, but he is also a thoroughgoing narcissist as far as I can see. You should never assume the best of a narcissist, or assume he has the same sort of motivation you might have, especially in regard to children, who are low status individuals in their eyes, therefore putty in their hands, or pawns. They do not generally see their own children as separate people. They do not care what damage they do to them.

They can be very single minded and have vast reserves of energy when their purposes demand it -- it's no bother to him after all to combine workaholism with a relentless campaign against your self-esteem in your relationship for instance, when it is actually much easier to get along and be nice, requires no maintenance of all that negative energy; and what kind of a moron needs to be told that his wife might like him more and feel more attracted to him if you were nice to her? If this man aims to exact revenge on you or aims to keep up the work he has already started, making your life miserable, he will, and he will use whatever he has at his disposal, including the children, to do this.

okay now your all scaring me...its pressing the buttons h pressed about my fitness to look after girls...he always new best...reassure me i have not made a big f up and am not going to make more of the same...

You did the right thing here in leaving; your DDs not just to say yourself would have become very screwed up indeed had you remained in the marital home with this man.

You cannot have a relationship with a narcissist - it just does not work.

Hi Timmy, long-time lister, first time caller

You are doing astonishingly well, you are caring for your DD's wonderfully, but this whole seperating thingie is a minefield in the best of circumstances, which this isn't.

I agree with everyone that it probably best not to lay the burden of the decision on who she wants to live with on your 4yo. Quite apart from anything else, he will most likely manipulate her if/when he decides to see them again, so don't gift him this way for him to manipulate her against you.

I do understand the motivation to allow your DD to be involved, and I think it comes from the best intentions, so please don't feel judged.

Hi itstimmy

I've been reading along with the thread since you started it, but you've had such great advice that I haven't felt I needed to add anything.

Don't be scared - it sounds like you are a wonderful mother to your DCs, and you are doing the best you possibly can for them. I think the posters above were trying to give some friendly advice based on what you've said about your H and possibly some first-hand experiences as well. No-one is trying to criticise you or imply that you're not fit to look after your little ones.

Best of luck tomorrow.