DH's religion & children - should I just give up?

[WhyIsTheSkyBlue]

DH is a muslim (non-practising - or so I thought), I am an atheist. We have been married for seven years and are still very much in love.

DH has wanted children for a long time but I never felt quite ready in the past. However, I am now at a point where I would very much like to become a mum.

Although DH was initially delighted to hear this, he is now saying that we must get married in an islamic ceremony before having children. He says it would be wrong to have "illegitimate" children and wants any future kids of ours to be brought up as "proper" muslims.

I would be prepared to go through with something like this for his sake (it's not as though it would affect me legally). As a muslim, however, he can only marry another muslim, a christian or a jew - not an atheist. DH was apparently unaware of this until he enquired about the ceremony. He is now begging me to convert and seems to think that unless I start following one of these faiths (preferrably islam, of course) our marriage might not survive at all due to it being "sin".

(I should point out that DH really isn't that religious, i.e. doesn't fast, pray, eats non-halal meat, drinks occasionally, ...)

On the one hand I feel sorry for DH as this appears to be some sort of an identity crisis for him. On the other hand, however, I also feel very hurt and angry for myself and very much taken aback at the notion that as an "infidel" I should somehow be inferior material and not suitable as the mother of his children.

DH also seems to think that my (lack of) religious belief is some kind of a lifestyle choice, and that the only reason I don't believe in any sort of a deity is because I'm simply being stubborn.

I love DH very much (and I'm very confident that he feels the same way about me). However, I also do want to have children at some point in the not so distant future and I want a partner who accepts me with all my opinions and personal (non-)beliefs.

Is there any way this can end well or should I just give up on this relationship?

And yes, it does happen in the UK, behind closed doors.

Very very very unfair of him to switch on you like this. When he married you he knew what he was signing up to: a lifelong commitment to an atheist. If he wanted all along to bring any future children up as muslims he should have been clear about that with you from the start.

If I were you I'd feel very betrayed and tricked. I can only agree with what everyone else has said here; it doesn't sound like an argument you're going to win so you should probably wrap things up and bow out now before any kids come into the equation.

Not fair.

I also (registry office) married a man who came from a Muslim background but was "into" Buddhism (so I thought that's ok then), thank God he wasn't into circumcision (I have a son from him), but two weeks into the marriage he told me he didn't want me having any contact with other men

What? Can't even ask the busdriver for a ticket??

(Most of my male friends are gay, which of course also became a "problem" - sigh!)

He also threatened to take HIS son to HIS country!

Needless to say, I left him, taking my son..

Muslim culture has a much stronger hold on its followers than any other religion, including pressure from the family and the society, and as an outsider, it's really hard (impossible)to deal with stuff you don't agree with (go against your own beliefs)!

A woman with feminist beliefs marrying a muslim, how naive I was!

Wishing you luck with whatever decision you make!

Don't forget that one of the big reasons some men behave like this (whether they are Muslims, Jews or Christian fundies) is because it's in what they think is their best interests. If they just said to their wives or girlfriends 'Look, from now on you have to obey me, not speak to other men, serve me and Know Your Place - oh, and I have final say on everything about our DCs upbringing as well', then most intelligent women would tell them to fuck off.
However, once they start saying that their imaginary friend insists that the women become subservient and second-class people, and claim their culture and tradition and all the rest of the male-supremacist bullshit are special and deserve respect, it can become a little harder for women who want to believe themselves tolerant and respectful of other people's beliefs.
The whole point and purpose of all religions is that they are a way for some people to control others, anyway.
Honestly OP, unless he gets a grip and dumps this nonsense, you are best off out of there.

Agree with SGB totally.

However, it might be that he was contentedly bobbing along with his nice westernised liberal lifestyle that allowed him to do all the things he fancied, until the thought of having children and being an actual grown-up brought him sharply back to what he "knew" all along was the "proper" way to live. You do get it in Christianity in much more watered down form with people who would never otherwise darken the door of a church having their children Christened "just in case there's something in it".

The one good thing to be said about this situation is that at least he had the decenly to warn you what he is planning to turn into before Junior has been conceived.

The worst thing is that this is just the beginning of the trouble if you go ahead.

You would be mad, stark staring certified bonkers if you do go ahead and have his children. And they will be "his" children, make no mistake about that.

I thought SGB was saying that these controlling men use their 'imaginary friend'[god,allah et al)as an excuse to control their wives and families...surely she's entitled to her opinion.

Riven: my point here is that abusive or controlling people often use their imaginary friends to justify their controlling behaviour.
Religion is not necessarily harmful in people who are basically decent and well-meaning, but it is very, very often used by people who are not well-meaning to justify abusing others. Mainly women and children of course as all the major religions are about male supremacism.

Whether it's religiously-based or not, I would be very worried indeed about the changes that he is expressing in his ideas about how children should be raised, the woman's role, etc.

Alarm bells are definitely ringing!

"all the major religions are about male supremacism"

Yes and that's what you would be buying into.

There does seem to be a tendency for some people to get more religious as they get older and especially when they have children.

I'm afraid I think his religious feelings are only going to get stronger, not weaker, if you have children together and as time goes on. I imagine his (Muslim) family might also get more involved if you have children?

I also think that if he feels this strongly about Islamic marriage and children's upbringing ("little tramps" WTF?) then it seems unlikely that you will be able to co-exist as an atheist parent with him as a Muslim parent. It seems likely there will be regular and numerous disagreements - at best, mere disagreements over religious protocol, at worst, fundamental disagreements about roles in the family, your freedom of belief, etc.

To be honest it sounds like he has changed and your views are no longer compatible. I'm so sorry you are in this position.

"all the major religions are about male supremacism

Yes and that's what you would be buying into."

I can see why some would say this, but IME the religion, per say is not the driving force behind the misogyny, it's society in these nations themselves that drive that

When Islam was created it was much fairer to women than it is interpreted to be so now. the Elders/heads of family over time used the ambiguity of the scripts to their own ends, and progressively the rights women had were reinterpreted into control, and then the punishment structure brought into ensure it.

It's sold to women in muslim society as 'it's for your own good' and you are not a good muslim woman unless you accept this, and you will never marry unless you do that.

As generations of mothers have been brought up like this, by their mothers, women not only have no chance of breaking the cycle of misogyny and control, they actually don't WANT to.

I've heard many, many times women in Egypt saying if he doesn't scream and shout at me, if he doesn't want to know where I am every second of the day, if he doesn't demand, food, sex whatever 24 hours a day, (and this is honestly what men are raised to expect and demand) not forgetting 'hit me every so often' then they think he doesn't love her.

So that man that we all hear about on the Relationships threads, yeah, the one we all say is a screaming, abusing bully, and to call Woman's Aid and leave his sorry arse...

That is what men in these societies are raised to be. Sure they can be educated outside of that society and learn to accept compromises on the rights they have been given, but deep down they resent these rights of 100% autonomy being taken from them, and it will come out in passive aggression, or snidey remarks at the very least.

Even the most wonderful non-muslim egyptian men I have met that DO change nappies, feed and clothe their DC have ALL at least once pouted and said how the W needs to be grateful to them for helping out, as they do much more than they have been raised to do. Men often see other men who help out as week, cuckolded and hen-pecked.

Religion actually is nothing do to with this, it's the culture and society that creates these monsters, the religion is used as that unassailable force to ensure men's will is imposed.

"I can see why some would say this, but IME the religion, per say is not the driving force behind the misogyny, it's society in these nations themselves that drive that"

Yes that is true, because of biology the males of the species have always been dominant over females because it has been necessary to treat a woman like your brood mare in order to be sure that she only carries your DNA on to the next generation. A woman always knows a child is hers, a man does not. So primitive societies couched religion in what we nowadays see as mysogynistic terms in order to preserve that biological determinant. Men are dominant and women are their possessions.

The problem is that religion is still the vehicle for perpetuating the same views in the modern day mysogenistic societies.

You can see that the Taliban fear and loath women more than anything else on earth, what I can never understand is why the likes of Sarah Palin and her ilk do likewise...

OP you said 'Since I'm not a believer this is not something that I feel would affect me at all.'

I found the above comment interesting and it leads me to ask whether you have asked him what is involved in an Islamic marriage ceremony?.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't you at some point have to say the Muslim confession of faith "'There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger" will have to be said by the both of you because according to Google "Marriage (nikah) is considered as an act of worship (ibadah)"

With regards to your children, I am sorry to inform you this but they will have to be raised as Muslims. The consequences
of you refusing to agree to this could be profoundly detrimental to your husband as shown below

"If a Muslim man agrees to ANY of such terms accepting the kids to be raised non-Muslims, the person will be regarded as a "Murtid"
(the one who has denied Islam) because he has allowed his kids to become "kaafir" who may have been brought up in Islamic religion. Anyone who willingly and knowingly allows/agrees for his kids to become "kaafir" is regarded as "kaafir." He is out
of the Islamic circle".

Source: www.jannah.org/sisters/intermarriage.html

I personally would give up now before children come into it and make things much much more complicated, not to mention permanent.

Please please rethink this. IME it will just get worse once kids arrive. You will be at loggerheads about everything in no time at all.

His new-found faith changes everything and he is no longer the man you married.

Riven, yes it does. But then so do the rules about the death penalty for apostasy. So there's contradictions in the Quran. This is a surprise to you?

Unfortunately I will have to agree with most of the other comments made here.

I know you can't imagine living by yourself and without him and no matter what anyone else says, you probably cannot imagine what it will be like. But DO listen to the other comments and if you can accept that things WILL get more complicated and that you will probably have to fight your own corner a lot, then go for it.

My husband is a Buddhist and things are working out fine for us as I agree with most of it. However, he also used to be more laid back when I first met him, it was all about partying and going out.

I don't think your DH / partner meant to mislead you about his religion from the beginning. I just think that as people become older and as they start having children, they will turn more towards their family / religion and upbringing. I am seeing it happening in myself.

It can be hard work to sync the two backgrounds. He never used to celebrate birthdays, Easter and X-mas for example and its taken 5 years to come to a compromise. He no longer asks if the children really need to celebrate their birthday :)
We know celebrate everything and anything.

I'm waffling, sorry. Just be aware that things will be complicated and whilst you may think now that you can cope with it, it tends to bite you in the bum later and perhaps 10 years down the line you will be sick of the constant battles.

Nothing can prepare you beforehand, only go into this if you are a strong person, you will need it.

Forced conversion is how some African nations became Islamic nations. The rest got round this by making the political, social, economic and religious conditions such that people had to convert.

It is happening in the UK albeit on a smaller scale (for now anyway)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7428933/Muslim-gangs-imposing-sharia-law-in-British-prisons.html from the Telegraph.

A few quotes;

"The officer, speaking to Radio Five Live's Donal Macintyre show, told how younger prisoners were targeted for forced conversion to Islam by the gangs."

"One Catholic prisoner who refused to convert was seriously assaulted after being repeatedly threatened by the gang, the officer said. "He said every so often they would come to his cell and hold the Koran up through the small window in the cell door and start running their fingers along their throats," she said".

Apologies OP for deviating from this original discussion of this thread; just wanted to offer up an answer to the a question.

The above response ^^^^is directed at Riven who asked "surely that contradicts 'there is no compulsion in religion' from the Quran?"

Thanks

get out get out get out

the moment you become pregnant you will become property.