Is this a normal sex life???

[whatisnormality]

My husband and I have just had an argument about our sex life.... again

It has got to the point where we are on the verge of splitting up. He does not see that there is a problem and I feel like I'm going mad so wanted other people's thoughts.

Our sex life:

• Always initiated by me
• 90% of the time it is me pleasuring him with no reciprical action and he 'thanks' me afterwards
• Crunch time came at the weekend when I'd spent 50 minutes on foreplay (on him) and he suggested we go upstairs. Rather than have sex me, he got on all 4's so he could have some bum action?!
• Last night we were cuddling and although I knew he was up for it, as he knew I was upset by the weekend incident I refused to acknowledge it so he asked if (whilst we were cuddling) it was ok if he played with himself as he had a stiffie (I was gagging for it, as always but wanted him to initiate it just for once)

It's been like this for the past 10-11 yrs and we always talk about it and it's always my fault and I just end up mystified. Apparently I don't know what normal is and I patronise him.

He says that everything has to be perfect for me to want to have sex and if I go to bed wearing knickers or pyjamas it means I don't want it (even if I subsequently spend 50 minutes playing with him, I'm clearly not interested)

Is this really remotely normal???

He stroked your arm and made you dinner? Does that honestly make everything else okay? And him not realizing how he is behaving is no excuse at all. If anything it is just another reason to leave. He won't change if he doesn't see or notice anything that needs changing.

Complete strangers can see you are worth so much more than this man. It's just so sad that you can't. I hope you find happiness in life, but I'd bet mine that it'll never be with him.

Rubbish links, sorry.

Characteristics of healthy relationships
Boundaries in relationships
Principles of a good relationship

The thing about these pages is that most people would read them and go "Duh! Well, of COURSE!" But some of us need telling what's okay :)

I'm just re-reading all the threads to see how everyone came to their conclusions.... It's just been a lot to take on board and I'm emotionally shattered already!

Thanks for the links Grace - I tried to view them but they went to weird websites so will google instead.

I know that our relationship is not in a good place and hasn't been for years. I do just need to sort out my head and decide how best to proceed.

I'm starting my counselling next week (I had an appointment I couldn't make due to work) and that will be interesting.

Thanks Grace - I've looked and I think we all know the result of the questions!!!

It isn't just him though - I no longer respect him and do sometimes find myself sneering at things he says. He has no real friends and never sees his family. The second link is equally telling as I think I have always associated fogiveness with love (or more relief when someone starts to be nice again and give me positive reinforcements after an argument/disagreement) and certainly have sympathy for my darling mother who has an awful life with my father.

If he doesn't realise how he has been behaving, how can he possibly change? He is
And yes the phone and singing things are not good when he is trying to be nice.
You are not abusive btw, you are defensive.

I totally understand that you are tied in emotionally with this man after years together and that it is not as simple for you as walking away today. That is why you will cling to any small thing at this time (arm stroking) as an indication that he's suddenly changing and all will be different in future. But we have seen in black and white everything that you have posted about your relationship dynamics and his actions towards you and we just want you to recognise the abusive patterns and manipulation and totally unacceptable behaviour you've described, so that you can leave one day soon. You need to stop making excuses for him and stop looking for reasons to blame yourself!

Thank you Cornish.

I have suddenly lost confidence despite now having the support of both my bf and brother. It's such a big step and he has been making a real effort.

I'm just so shattered and definitely need some time out to contemplate the next stage. I know practically what I should do - I'm just having problems doing it as so many doubts start to cloud what I'm pretty sure is correct.

I've been re-reading through all of the posts tonight and links and it isn't a healthy relationship. We don't make each other happy. We have so many classic signs of an abusive relationship it's mad - we even moved in together within a month of meeting (I NEVER realised that was a sign, I thought it was sweet?!)

I guess now that I've spoken to people it's real as opposed to speaking to an online community where I don't feel as though I actually have to act (not sure if that makes any sense).

It does make sense :) I know most of your other respondents share my JOY that you have a friend and a family member, who can validate your new discoveries for you. That's actually quite rare, you're lucky!

The whole thing is difficult. Most of the websites that help people who've grown up thinking of themselves as 'low worth' make reference at some point to Alice and the Looking Glass. The reason is probably very obvious to you now ... it's the whole process of discovering a different (better, undoubtedly) world and having the courage to step into it. Don't worry, you'll get there as long as you keep looking. Where you are, now, is the wrong side of the mirror. Most people live on the brighter side and you can, too.

When you take that step, you'll probably have to leave H behind. He's one of the 'mirror' people, if you'll pardon the allegory. You're not though :) I know you're not, because you can see it all now. He never will be able to, I believe. Don't feel too sad for him. He'll find other 'mirror' people to spend his time with, and they'll make each other satisfactorily miserable!

Soon enough you'll be able to step into the ordinary world, where kindness is everyday. I think you should gather support, though. He might be very, very angry when he realises you can get a decent life, while he's stuck. He's so vicious and full of misery, even his niceness is nasty. Be careful. Talk to your friend and your DB, ring some aid agencies for a common-sense chat ... and do a flit, if you have to.

You'll make it :)

You are young, 32. You can happily be by yourself, young, breezy, confidant, happy. Maybe in time, you'll find an equal partner and you can delight in each other!. For sure, you don't need to stay tied to DH, the miserable old sod (using an English term! ). Please please take your cat with you, wherever you go. Your cat seems a fine judge of character!

It will take time - it took six months of fortnightly breakups for me to pull up the courage to refuse to take my abusive ex boyfriend back. TBH I didn't fully realize until years afterwards that he was abusive. Oh, but when I finally broke it off I hid, and I hid. I would leave work (escorted by a burly coworker to my car because he would wait in the parking lot 'just to talk'). I stayed at a friend's house who tbh I didn't really care for but exbf didn't know them until four in the morning most nights because I knew if I went home he would be waiting at my house (again 'just to talk' - he was never physically violent. just talking and talking and trying to reel me back in with yet more talking).

He went to my parents house and would stay there for hours, chatting with my mother, making excuses for himself until even she thought I was making a mistake leaving him (the only one who ecouraged me to leave was my dad, based on the way he heard me responding to this boyfriend on the phone).

Ex-bf had an excuse for everything. Hell, he had a reason for every little reason why he was so messed up. His parents, his childhood, blah-de-blah.

Here's the hint, OP, and what it took me so long to realise: understanding WHY he does something DOES NOT MEAN I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT

Honestly. Repeat it. Repeat it when he goes to counselling and the counselor completely falls for his charming line of bullshit. Repeat it when he begs for just yet one more chance (after hundreds before it).

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

He agreed to counselling, he tried to marry me, etc etc. OP, your H has legitimate fuckedupedness in his past. So let him fix his shit and be happy WITH SOMEONE ELSE. Don't let him make you go through his process of fixing himself. (oh, and ex-bf never actually did resolve issues, that was just a clever ploy to keep me around and thinking that he was 'doing something' about the problem - but counselling takes time don'tchaknow, so he could use that excuse to buy a few months)

A lot of what your saying rings true (I was 19, a virgin -which he accused me of lying about after he took it- swell guy, he was older, etc etc etc - and bad as he was, your H sounds like a dickhole compared to this guy).

Hell, when my ex bf found out my mobile phone number I seriously considered changing it just to get him to stop calling me after a year of no contact. The hold he has on you will last a long time, and it will colour your experience of men for a long time. And that's perfectly normal.

Also, had to pull this out from pages ago:
"No real, decent man could even get an erection if he thought his partner didn't want to do something or enjoyed it, never mind if she was crying!"

DH, a decent if emotionally obtuse fellow, had an ex girlfriend who had rape fantasies. Well and fine I suppose. He says it was terrible because the second she started to resist (as part of the fantasy/roleplay), he lost it and couldn't get it up. Just could not sustain an erection through a woman resisting his advances. So for you OP.

You have come so far, and realized so much in a relatively short space of time. I sense you are gaining real insight about yourself, your husband and your situation. Well done.
Massive congratulations to you.

I wish I could just drag you out for a coffee and some chocolate fudge cake or other delicious naughtyness! And toast you in latte!

Hi whatis

I have been following your thread and wishing you well.

Only one tiny thing to share from me, from what you said about the "shushing".

My DP is always singing, shouting at the radio, playing the banjo or whatever. He makes far more noise than DD! Sometimes I'm on a work call or checking DD when she's asleep and he bursts out with something. Quite frankly it drives me a bit mad. The kitchen is open plan which doesn't help, as his racket echoes through the whole house.Very occasionally I think "bless him" but most of the time I wish he'd keep it down a bit.

Personality-wise he is very laid back, generally courteous, great with old ladies, although also quite emotional and sensitive.

If I were to "shush" him, he would be furious. He would find it very rude and disrespectful. I would definitely need to apologise. In our house it would probably become one of those incidents that happened once but never again, like a really bad row when awful things have been said.

As the action of someone who's trying to be nice, it's just not nice. I do agree with all the PPs that he's being manipulative rather than trying to improve.

If you get to the stage of wanting to really see whether he's changed, I thought perhaps you could stop using your codeword, and see if he's learnt anything from when you've been pointing out his abusive behaviour? If he's understanding and processing it, he would surely have learnt after a few weeks what he shouldn't be saying?

Very best of luck.

Hi Whatis

I wish you could understand how unbearably sad it is to read that you consider his stroking of your arm proof he is trying in many ways.

Please take your brother and friend up - go and stay with them - get some clear thinking time. I have no idea how your head becomes straight living with such a manipulative man - it is not in his interest for your thinking to become clear.

It is good to hear your are beginning to see things as they are and not how you wish they were - you are definitely on the right path -he doesn't want you to be there.

I have NEVER known a mumsnet thread of this sort where there is absolutly no discussion over whether it is an abusive relationship. It is and was absolutely unanimous. Your closest friends and family can see it.

What helped me leave a bad emotionally abusive relationship with an older man was the unshakeable belief inside me that we could never have children. I could not have brought children into that relationship with him as a father and I really wanted a family. It was this thought that spurred me on to end it once and for all. In order to shake free (after going back over and over again) I moved cities and job. Two months later met now DH who is a star, the light of my life and we have 2 adorable little girls. Leave leave leave.

Good morning and thank you for your messages.

I literally can't stop thinking about all of the advise I have been given and links I've read. My eyes are now fully open and I've started to realise how miserable I am.

Allarmbells - I used to sing all the time whereas now I rarely do as I am always told to be quiet. Thinking about that has made me realise how miserable I've been. I used to sign in the shower, car, to my cat but can't remember the last time (other than the other day) where I have and the reason for that is being told to be quiet or he's got a head ache..... I don't even sing in the car on the way home anymore.

I got home last night and he was having a nap (at 6.45). He was being a lot more affectionate than usual and I'm actually starting to be repulsed when he touches me. I'm becoming so angry that he has spent the past 15 years telling me how miserable I am etc when I've suddenly realised that it was never me. I've always tried (and failed) to make him happy and yet nothing I've ever done has been good enough.

A couple of days ago we were discussing how we have nothing in common and he said that I don't like doing any of the things he likes doing. This time I pointed out that I've tried all of the sports he likes but he finds me to be of an unacceptable level so is nasty and condesending when we play. For example tennis, I have tried to play with him but even when I manage to get a game going he says that I'm playing 'pitter patter' and not tennis. I offered to have lessons (and started them) but he still sneers at me and tells me I can't do it.

Skiing, again he says that I can't ski. I can ski, I just enjoy skiing at my pace. Again when we go skiing, I'm never good enough, I have to go faster and he makes it clear that (despite always going with friends now so that he has someone of his level) I am ruining his holiday because we can't ski together. He says that I 'glide' and don't ski. Well let me glide then rather than be bullied (again in tears) to ski in a manner I do not feel comfortable with.

There were loads of examples of hobbies that I 'cannot' do and this time I stood uo for myself and said that I can do them. He is the one who has spent the last x number of years telling me that I can't.

Sorry to go on but there's just so many thoughts going through my head and I'm realising so many things.

I think he can see the shift as last night for one of the first times ever he couldn't sleep and came downstairs for a few hours - that's pretty rare.

I can't see a way back from all of the realisations and just keep thinking of the years of my life that he's ruined (or that I've allowed to be ruined).

maren - you're right I have always just accepted what he says and although I do often initially question it I get worn down so move to his way of thinking. He makes me think I can't play tennis, I'm a bad skiier, driver, cook ..... the list goes on but you're right he can think whatever he wants and I don't have to accept it.

Grace I am so lucky to have such supportive friends and my brother. The past week I've had more of a life outside of my marriage than I have for many years and I've been much happier (hence the singing!!).

Got to go but thank you again for all of your support.

Well done whatis, I'm proud of you and I don't even know you! Hang on tight though it might get nasty.

Hi WIN. I've been following your story since you first posted, and like everyone else just LOVE you. You're amazing. Your H is a total shit.

You CAN ski, and you CAN play tennis, and you CAN leave this sorry tossrag.

WhatIs, you're doing so well! I was so pleased to read that you've had more of a life this week than for many years. I hope you can see how great things can be, once you get to the other side of this.

I have no further advice apart from echoing what others have said in terms of don't believe his bullshit about changing - he can't and won't. I know what you mean about him starting to repulse you and would recommend you think about going to stay with your brother or best friend to get some space. It's great you've got that support.

But I would like you to think about one thing. It's really minor but helped me so much. When I went through what I went through in getting out of an emotionally abusive relationship, a friend of mine made me learn a mantra. Whenever he started on at me, or whenever I doubted that I could be apart from him, I would take a deep breath and repeat it over and over in my head. You might find something similar useful - I found it very calming and self-affirming.

"Cool, calm, collected. Cool, calm, collected. I am fabulous and I deserve more out of life than this. I am working towards getting more out of life and every day is a step towards that. Cool, calm, collected. I am FABULOUS!'

I know it sounds really daft. And it may not help. But it helped me. Kept me focussed in the dark times.

You are doing so so well, we're all very proud of you. Keep talking to us, be assured you are NOT abusive, you're responding to his abuse - and you will get through this.

You can do whatever you want to do. You're capable of anything. Including, as Herbaceous says, leaving this utter eejit.

Whatis, you are doing so well! I know you might feel like crap about "wasting" your life but it is actually really healthy to be getting angry. And it's not wasted - your life isn't over, is it?

I love Georgette's mantra. And you can do all these things - ignore him.

He puts you down - you can rise above it.
He stifles your voice - raise it in song.
He naps all the time - you are waking up.

I wish we all knew you in real life so we could have a party for you when you break free!

Ditto that of herbaceous' words and I would like to add 'and you CAN sing' :)

Also ditto to openerofjars sentiments...when IS the party??

Keep singing...

Whatif, I could cry when I read how unhappy you have been, and how he shushes you when you sing. It's all wrong

Please don't waste another year on this 'man'. Life really is too short.

Can I ask if you and he have been intimate since all this came up? Not meaning to pry, but was wondering if he was actually trying to be more 'giving' in the bedroom since you told him how unhappy you were.

Hi Whatif, I understand what you are going through and I'm so sorry for you. I have been through similar problems with my husband, although not as bad as this and not as upfront and obvious, but finally I left him for about 7 months, but then he seriously begged and showed massive change, we ended up getting back together and we are trying in a new house to make a fresh start, but it is hard work and there are so many reminders of the past, even though he has changed a lot. Every now and then he has done something bad and it's all come back, plus we have just had another miscarriage to cope with, so I am really not sure what will happen next as I do love him and feel that a lot of the time he is my best friend, but often I hate him for the way he's been and how my life is turning out etc.

I've been reading this thread from the start, whatis, and while I don't think I have any expertise to offer I'm horrified by what you have endured during this marriage. Reading your thoughts on how your husband is suddenly improving feels like watching a film where you know the heroine is heading towards a bad decision, and you want to shout "behind you!". Please understand that you're not the odd person in your marriage: your husband is.

whatisnormality, I love the change in your posts. I still remember your earlier thoughts when you used to justify his constant undermining by writing 'well, I am a bad driver' or 'I have no self-control'. And I wanted to shout to you, 'It's not you, it is HIM!' It is never you, sweetheart.

Who in their right mind would take their partner on holiday and then make their life miserable by forcing them to practice what is meant to be a leisurely, relaxing activity in a manner which upsets them? I agree with other posters, I don't think he will ever change. Grace's advice has been amazing, please listen!

I am so pleased you are starting to see him for what he is, because hopefully it will mean you will start seeing yourself for who you truly are - a fabulous, loving, happy person who can live her life knowing how strong, resilient and amazing she is. You can be free and everybody here is keeping their fingers crossed for you.

Good morning!

Just a really quick update - I'm starting use this sight a little like a diary so apologies.

I'm still constantly thinking about things and now when he says nasty things they do literally just wash over me. He's clearly getting very nervous which is interesting. The funny thing is that I now recognise exactly what he's doing and exactly what he's done throughout our entire relationship.

The pattern would be I start standing up for myself and he withdraws a little of the love (i.e less texts on messages, pushing me away when I cuddle up to him), this time is different. He has reduced the kisses on messages (however this is intermitten) but he is actually cuddling up to me, sitting close to me on the sofa, stroking my arm or foot. I know it doesn't sound much but for the past 15 years it has always been me who moves to his end of the sofa, me who cuddles up to him, he stroking him... so it's an interesting and sudden change. I am literally ignoring it and am not touching him back as I really don't want to and have no desire to make him feel content and secure - I want him to feel a fraction of the rejection I've felt over the years.

We were on the phone yesterday and he said (whilst giggling nervously which was weird) that he does love me so much despite all the nasty things he says - interesting because I thought I'm the one who says all the nasty things!

I'm really recognising the manipulation that has made me cling to him over the years and I have literally done that. He withdraws love and I get clingier. He cries and I would do whatever it takes to make him happy. Very interestingly I have noticed since someone mentioned my cat that he does exactly the same. My husband says that the cat hates him when I'm not there and is really lovey towards him when I am - he says that he's manipulative. In fact he is so desperate to be shown love that he snuggles up and nuzzles into him hoping to receive a glimpse of love but can only do this in a secure environment because goodness knows how he might be treated if he did this when I wasn't there. I've really noticed the way he treats the cat - he'll pet him and make him feel loved and secure then give him the 'look' and the poor darling will hiss and stalk away.

Georgette - thank you for your mantra, I have started thinking similar things and am definitely getting stronger. It's true that you don't realise how miserable you are- I've gone from being dissapointed I wasn't terminally ill (whilst having tests for something nasty a few months ago) as I really didn't want to be here to actually feeling quite happy - it's something I haven't felt for a long time.

Open - not sure about the singing one but surely that should be an endearing feature as opposed to an irritant?! Perhaps we can have a virtual toast when I find the courage to actually make the break?

Perfumed - no intimacy. I haven't initiated anything and he would never dream of trying, it might mean too much effort?? tbh if he tried now it would certainly be rejected - not in retaliation but more because why should I? I hate having sex with him. It's wrong and makes me feel like a prostitue. I don't want to ever do that again and the thought of doing anything to him makes me feel nausious (sorry for spelling!). When he said he loved me yesterday I just said do you? and didn't say anything in return. A previous poster said that he hates me and I'm starting to wonder if he does. After all, if I'm as bad as my abusive father then who would ever love that?!

Merlino123 - I have felt exactly the same way over the last few years. He's my best friend etc - through this post I've realised he actually isn't really my friend at all - he's my dictator and I'm his follower (not sure if that makes any sense?). I know how it feels to desperately want things to work and I know how it feels to yearn for a baby. It's incredibly difficult to walk away from a relationship and I have so much respect for you for having done so. Having also got back together with dh after our previous split years ago, I can relate to the begging and crying and the please give me one more chance.... Clearly I did and have given him many more one more chances and who knows what happens next. I am so sorry you have suffered a miscarriage, that must be devastating. It may be worth posting your own thread if you haven't already as mine has certainly been therapeutic and made me see so many things in a different light.