NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Sory for keeping on with this,if anyone is still around.
I am now really confused and upset
xh rang and dd3 told him we're ll waiting for the police to come .

10 mimutes later he walks into the front room - this has been a difficult issue since the holidays,I have to keep stating and re-stating that it is my house,knock,respect my rules etc -Anyway.
He comes into the room,past ds,and takes over holding the door and asks when the police are coming?
I ask him why he has come.He glares at me and says hes there to help.I say he should help his ds.He says the police will do tht he's here to comfort dd!

She says Dad Im not a baby,ds is the problem here.XH starts crying and goes to sit outside door with ds.Can all hear him pleading tearfully with ds ,who is telling him f off.

It is dd's bedtime.I go to take her up and ask xh what he is doing.Where are the police say ds and swipes me.

xh follows me into dd's room.She asks him to go.He cries.I ask him to go.
Where else could I be when my son is taken into care?

I say this is my home ,I am trying to keep the evening routine.I have told ds what the consequences will be etc.I think you had better go.

He shouts at me.This is my ds.I have a right to be here.
I ask him to leave and tell him I will not be shouted at in my home ,that its aggressive.
He says for Gods sake how can you start on me now.You should be discussing all this with me.

I have said all I have to say,I won't tolerate bullying in my house,There are consequences.I want you to go.

He grabs ds and pulls him downstairs,ds screams and yells,breaks away runs round house.XH chasing,shouting loudly,ds screaming.Neighbours watching.

Xh catches ds and puts him in car.He gets out runs into dd's bedroom,where xh grapples with him and hurts him.He bursts into tears shouts Mum Mum I'm sorry dont make me go with him I hate him I'll do anything.Pulls off his own t shirt shoes and socks .XH manhandles him roughly into his car,ds crying same stuff xh shouting.
They have gone.
Girls v upset.

I am now furious with xh who I think has overstepped my boundaris and undermined me.
It was awful hearing ds cry like that.He has gone with no shoes or top.

Sorry for the drama.Thnks for listening.Baby sooo unsettled now.

pm, I am sorry, I don't know how to help but someone wise will be here soon to talk to you.
What will your XH do with ds? Has he ever been of any help--it seems mostly what he does is to bully you and then cry. How old are your dds and what state are they in?

Thanks quiddity. DD's are 14,12 ,8 and 5 months.
They are ok now.8 yr old asleep in bed .Me and older ones eating crisps and watching rubbish tv.

Xh will sleep in late tomorrow (ds will too) then - according to what ds and dd tell me,he will give him a row,fairly mildly,ds will then swear.Then he will cry and plead with him not to ruin his future as Mummy will not be able to cope and he could end up in care.Which ds knows won't happen.
Then he will remain emotionally unavailable and disengaged from ds until he can bring him back to me.Usually,as soon as possible.

Ds hates going.But I think he should stay there for the weekend.I need some quiet time,so do the girls ,and he needs to miss his comforts.Xh has no tv or pc,and reads books or listens to longwave radio all day.

Pinemarta I've switched threads after posting on the other one, but just ignore that for now, it's really not important at the moment.

I've had exactly the same issue with my youngest when he was about the same age....this is how you deal with it, tomorrow you must go to your GP, if possible with ds, no matter if you need to go on your own, explain the whole situation and you should get a referral to see a child Psychologist asap - a good doctor will understand the seriousness of this.

All of this isn't going to change over night, it took a year with my ds, however what you will see is a slow change.

I was lucky, I have a best friend who is also a health visitor and she gave me invaluable advice...very very firm ground rules..I know very difficult, my ds also destroyed rooms/ripped wallpaper off/broke down doors...for the moment you need to restore order...and it is a case of tough love..

What else can I say apart from what I was told, really really focus on any tiny bit of good behavior - none I suspect at he moment, but it will start to come through...have you heard from your XH?

Crisps and rubbish tv sound just the right thing. Agreed you need a break and ds should miss his comforts. So at least xh is being of some use in keeping him.
antalya's advice sounds very sensible too. It needs to be dealt with now before he gets bigger and stronger and even more impossible to deal with.
How long has this been going on? Sorry, haven't been on MN very long so I don't know what you may have said about this situation before.

Hey,thanks Antalya!

No,xh wont bother keeping in contact.Maybe tomorrow he will ring to moan about ds.

He does mean well,hopefully....but is spectacularly useless at anything remotely emotional or practical.
He irritates me beyond belief and I can't see me being able to make the extra effort with him in the future.

I will make an appointment with the gp tomorrow.

What an awful day youve had .
I had quite mixed feelings reading that post , i honestly do not know how you havent exploded today , im afraid i do not have even 5 per cent of your patience . Mine hated going to her dads too , eventually i would make her go regardless or i wouldve killed her .

Funnily enough she would come back here whinging about how awful he was , yet continue to treat me like shit. I eventually packed her off for two weeks and said if her attitude didnt change she would be staying there permanently , she had two parents , not one .

I dont know what to think about your ds being put into the car like that. On one hand it mightve made him realise theres rotton consequences , then again it was horrible for the rest of you. Could you ask his dad to keep him for a week or so to give you all a break ?

x post
He only started doing this a week or so ago,and this is only the third time.But since the first time,it has really affected the whole family dynamic,because he massively disrespected his dad for crying and not sorting it out ,and found he could control the household.

I hope you get help very soon to deal with it. Horrible for everyone, including ds. Poor kid.
XH sounds massively annoying and unhelpful.
Hugely impressed with how you handled this evening though.

Thank you so much everyone.
I am fried.Been comfort eating bombay mix.Whole massive bag....
Yes,awful thinking of him crying like that and knowing h's going to be with useless xh.But then,that's the reality - he does have a father who wants to be part of his life,and he's exhausted my capabilities for him today.
Don't feel as if I did well.But thanks.

Feel this is the fallout from xp.It must have to do with his behaviour at the end.

Better go to bed and try and sleep before next baby feed.
xxx

Get in touch with your XH and demand your DS be returned tomorrow without fail, then take your DS to the GP. Nothing good can come from your DS dealing with your really, really strange XH. He is a huge part of the problem. Hopefully your DS will not run away from there tonight. Crying and pleading and running around outside after his son shouting and yelling? This man is not an adult.

I would call the police to tell them where your DS is, and if your XH wants to keep him there tomorrow I would enlist their help to remove him if there's no agreement between the two of you that he would normally be there on this particular day of the week, and seeing as he basically took the child out of your lawful custody without your consent and with the DS vigorously opposing him. He needs time with his father like he needs a hole in the head.

Your XH needs to stay out of your house. Does he have a key? If so change the locks. Sit the other DCs down and tell them nobody can tell XH or XP (baby's father) ANYTHING -- the phone is to be handed to you if they call. This is for your own protection and for the benefit of your DS.

Thank god for you, mathanxiety.

PM, I've been reading this evening's events with horror. Stuck in the middle of all this, you must feel like you're being thrown around in some kind of storm. No wonder you're knackered.

Please watch out for any sense of being "at the mercy" of any of the men in your life, including DS. This has been such a prominent feature throughout your life, I imagine you may have some variety of automatic 'switch' that makes you feel helpless before a male bully. YOU ARE FAR FROM HELPLESS!

Follow Math's advice, please - and your other advice on managing DS's angry experiments. Take charge. You are as powerful as you said in that She-Ra thread ... I notice you've only ever mentioned your power as a joke!!
Watch your thoughts. Stand strong & tall.
Big hugs xx

I initially thought Maths was a bit harsh with that post , then i re read it and realised it was your ex crying and running around.
Ive had a cryer , the red eyes , the snot ( shudder ). I hope things are better tomorrow.

I agree,Grace,I do go into a funny place when there is male aggression directed at me. I think it is a kind of "freeze" which is filled with rage,just underneath.

I also have way more unresolved anger at my xh than I realized.And he is clearly also filled with unexpressed rage and resentment.I did know that once.As time has gone on since we divorced I have edited him into a more benign version...and thought it was me,really God that is a lightbulb going off as I write....

I have put xh into the same place as my parents .....I am doing the same internal and external behaviour...same feelings....

Well is that being acted out by ds,now?

Thing is,ds was supposed to be at his dads this weekend.It is something else now,to be addressing whether he sees his dad or not.

He says he doesn't want to.Xh sees his intervention as appropriate.He has parental responsibility.The police rang after they had gone and said it was good that his father had stepped in.Which is how they will see it.As will the gp.

I also think ds does need time away from his comforts,and his sisters - and me- are angry and upset with him.
His dad is useless and incapable.But he does love ds.He will be safe there.And I am not abandoning him,he lives with me.I hope he will have an opportunity to think about the consequences of his behaviour.

But I have to re establish a very clear boundary with xh re me and my family/our home.
This has been a growing problem since the holiday - remember,he came with us?
He seemed to see that as meaning he is a part of our daily lives.It's as if he sees me as his mother or that because we have children together,he is entitled to everything the children are entitled to from me.

That was a huge problem in our marriage.He would retreat and refuse to speak to me/withhold everything,then turn up by the side of my bed in the night,crying and begging for a cuddle........

I am FURIOUS with him.

He just texted me to say he's informed ss that i am an unfit mother and he wont be allowing ds back into my care and has an appointment with a school near his house this am.He says he's told education dept that i am, keeping ds out of school

I have a similar problem Pm , i usually try to stay away from him but if i am even civil with him next thing hes ringing daily , suggesting holidays and days out and making referances to us , ours , we , our family ect.

Theres no middle ground it seems as he wont accept limits. I do not know him anymore and dont want to, yet he will ring me for support if hes got a problem and expect me to listen. Interesting what you said about him seeing you as his mother because thats how i feel , ( i know why because i thrashed it out at counselling ) but it always leaves me feeling a bit yuck and contaminated .

I too struggle with male aggresion and my heart literally pounds i think i go into little kid mode , im aware of it but its very difficult. Very awkward re the weekend with your dc . I often felt tight for making them go as i knew they didnt like it but couldnt stand being tortured daily.

Oh No. I dont know what to say Pm .

Poor DS. Now he knows what "being a pawn" means. I don't know how this business with SS works, PM, but my first thought is that you're the parent with residence & day-to-day responsibility. DH doesn't have the right to make unilateral decisions like this, does he? DS has been asking you to terminate his visits to his dad so that says a lot about whethr he'll be better of there long term!

You need to ring SS yourself and clarify this, I feel. You might need to see a solicitor too. I know some others here have been through this, so hopefully they'll be along soon. I think you've identified what's going on with DH. He's adopted a family role that doesn't exist in reality. Idiot!

Write down the facts, leaving emotional confusion out of it. Do it here if it helps.

Just to add that if you want advice on getting DS back, you might go over to the legal matters thread, as this kind of thing has come up before, eg. this thread

PM, so sorry for the situation you are currently in. I agree with some of the earlier advice. I would get a GP appointment and ask for a referral to a child psychologist. I would make an appointment regardless of whether your son is able to come with you or not. Then I would phone SS and outline your concerns.

Your son is very conflicted and this acting out like your ex is hard. But I think you need to go for the zero tolerance that dignified recommended and be very much in a parent role. Taking action is in his best interest and in the best interest of all your children.

Your ex is exploiting the situation to the full, isn't he? I would request your DS is returned to you by XX time and if not call the police. With men like these, you have to have such strict boundaries. At a later stage, I would investigate a legal agreement abut what your ex can and cannot do. For example, my ex is physically not allowed past my front door, with people like this there can be no shades of grey I'm afraid.

Pm , do you think your ex really has done that ? It seems bizarre because as you say he often returns him to you if hes naughty.
I wonder if this is a power play on his part and you are meant to beg and plead with him while he holds this power over you ? Does weepy weeperson even want DS full time ?

It also has the added bonus of possibly making you think twice before you ask him for any support , or " burden " him with any problems he doesnt really want to know about.
I wonder if your DS is aware of it , i bet hes horrified at the prospect of living with him permanently ( might do him good ?) I honestly think Weepy will be franticly backtracking in a few days .

Fwiw , my ex idiot did something similar although he didnt involve SS , just stated that he was keeping them , i was an unfit loon , he had checked with the police and he didnt have to return them . He would see me in court aparently where the kids would state what a bitch i was ( he often encouraged this ) and i would lose custody because i am aparently mad. He wouldnt let me speak to them either.

I was frantic initially , making desperate tearfull phone calls to arrange a soliciters apointment , then i thought , hang on , this idiot lives over 200 miles away and works full time , how the fuck is he going to get them to school ? He was on a wind up, i calmly stated that there would be no court battle , he was right , the kids would be better off with him , when was he coming to collect their stuff ?

Cue him franticly backtracking , he wasnt having the kids fobbed off onto him like this , he couldnt beleive i didnt give a shit about my own kids ect ect , you get the picture . Dont start panicking just yet Pm ( although im sure you have ) i think hes bluffing big time.

I called his bluff.
I had a phone chat with a lovely friend (from MN ,who has followed this ) she advised responding by saying " What a good idea" then waiting.

He turned up with ds about an hour ago .
He said he hasn't spoken to SS or school yet,but "plans" to.If I didn't have him back

I spoke to them on the doorstep.I told ds I loved him very much but will not be bullied by him.I have made a n appointment with the gp for him on Monday.
I gave him his coat and shoes and told them I am exhausted and upset and was going to go away for a break and will speak to them Monday morning. Then I shut the door.

I really can't hold everybody else up all the time. I have to settle the girls and the baby...AND MYSELF.

Well done! Glad you got good advice from a friend, and I'm impressed at how dignified called it too!

dIDN'T refresh before posting...
dignified - spot on!!!!!!!

I am so emotionally exhausted I really can barely see

This xh is not even xp the narc bastard
I can't believe I took this specimen on holiday for free

He was indeed horrified and tearful when I shut the door

Sorry if it sounds shocking,but if ds is pissed of,perhaps it will cause him to consider his behaviour.He could be coming away for a nice weekend with his family.Instead he is stuck with an emotionally retarded,snivelling lizard who will be terrified he's come to stay,and presumably therefore,emotionally disengaged in his passive rage at me.
Tough

He said he hasn't spoken to SS or school yet,but "plans" to.If I didn't have him back
. Snort. What a prick.

If he whinges on like this again let him no in no uncertain terms that doing so will result in ds living with him permanently and you wouldnt oppose the idea , so to fuck off with it. Whats he gonna do ? Come round and cry at you ? Idiot !

I agree about the weekend by the way , have a great time. And well done.