NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

PineMartina -- You're lucky they are not speaking to you. No information or pieces of the puzzle would be worth the sheer horror of being engaged with the X's oldest DD on an ongoing basis from what you say. If they're out of your hair, keep them out.

WRT what to say to your littlest DD -- don't make up anything along the lines of 'he loves you very much'. You don't want to give her the impression that love is an abstract noun, because it's a verb. Love of a parent is what you are giving this little baby girl all day every day, and your other DCs too. Not whatever concept of love he may have in the bottomless pit of his emotional black hole.

Don't underestimate the value of what you're giving them or think they must feel something lacking because of what's absent. Look at the glass half full in their lives much more than half full really and that is what you bring to the table.

Children need the truth more than they need platitudes. Anyone can cope with the truth when it's told with sensitivity and clarity. And if they sense you are fudging things for whatever reason they may begin to keep from telling you things they feel deep down about your exP -- they may wrongly suspect that you have a need to hold onto some sort of fairy tale about him loving everyone but being tragically unable to be there and show it in a healthy way, and spare your feelings.

Dignified yes, 'picking on him' even when they were toddlers exH took things as personal provocation. I thought he would kill DD3, who was heavy going in her early years, when she was between 2 and 5 years old.

Mathanxiety - thanks for that

this ,especially -
"Children need the truth more than they need platitudes. Anyone can cope with the truth when it's told with sensitivity and clarity. And if they sense you are fudging things for whatever reason they may begin to keep from telling you things they feel deep down about your exP -- they may wrongly suspect that you have a need to hold onto some sort of fairy tale about him loving everyone but being tragically unable to be there and show it in a healthy way, and spare your feelings"

So I will just do it in the same way as with dc's dads .Truthfully,and with support.And al of my love...
not...

..."whatever concept of love he may have in the bottomless pit of his emotional black hole."

Where would I be without MN.Doesn't bear thinking about.

Pm , oldest daughter sounds a total twat and if it was me id be glad she doesnt speak to me , she clearly knows as she doesnt see him and is probably happy to live in denial , you threaten that denial which is probably why she avoids you. Far easier to think your a horrible person and a liar as opposed to her dads a wanker !

I really wouldnt say daddy loves you very much in response to any questions . I did that for a long time and my poor dcs eventually thought he was only like that with them , or that maybe they were the problem.

How about just telling them the truth, theres something wrong with him that means he cant be a nice daddy because he doesnt behave niceley. Do your older dcs still think hes a great guy ?

No ,we have talked about it a lot. Obviously,he has disappeared and not seen their baby sister,so as time has gone on,they have become more angry,and felt let down.

At first ,they thought he would come back and "make everything alright".
In some ways,he has opened an opportunity for us to talk about unacceptable behaviour in a way that I would maybe not have done otherwise.

Both my eldest girls have readLiving With The Dominator and we have talked about that lots.

Ds is having a hard time.He

(posted too soon by mistake)

He has started to act out his anger by kicking stuff and storming off,then refusing to speak.
He is already 5ft.4 at 9,and a big lad.He knows I cannot physically make him do things and has started to be quite challenging over things that he did willingly until now - washing up,tidying,bedtime etc.

It happens every few days or so,and can be 24hrs until he'll talk to me and goes back to being himself.He's always been very gentle and cheerful,but I guess he is getting hormones going on,too.

As I said upthread,he is very angry at and towards his Dad.I think xp was undermining ,but it was subtle - more focussed on presenting himself as the ideal parent and going on about how hard I worked a a single mum,he couldn't understand absent fathers etc

Then Ds saw xp shouting at me at the end,and afterwards,said he wished he'd been able to punch him to make him stop.

His dad has not helped.He thinks I should sort it out.He brings him back to me if he's naughty in any way. I sat down with him last week to talk about how we could help Ds,he just cried and wrung his hands and said he thinks Ds is not the sort of boy he can relate to - says ds is "not sensitive enough" but unable to suggest what he means .

Ds says his dad "cries and begs him to stop" when ds kicks and shouts.Xh says that is true - but what else do I want him to do.
I've suggested they do stuff together - ds loves sport,but his dad says he hasn't got time or energy even though he used to be very sporty himself.

Ds talks openly when not angry and gets lots of time with me,but he knows he has control over me when he's angry.It's not good.

An example.He is at home with me as is waiting for a school place.He refused to get up this am ,to come and drop dd3 ar school,so I left him and said if he was up and sorted when I got back,we'd take the dog to the woods,which he loves.

When I got back,he was on playstation in pyjamas.

I told him I was disappointed and asked him to get dressed.He ignored me.When I turned off the ps,he trashed the room,not stopping,despite baby dd .I had to leave the room to avoid having stuff thrown at me.

He has gone to his room now and is ignoring me.

What do I do? His behaviour is not ok,but he is clearly unhappy and wants/needs something he isn't getting.I can do the cuddles and chats,but if/when I impose consequences,he kicks,shouts,throws stuff.

He says it's all because he hates his Dad.

Sorry to hear this PM.
What happens after these incidants ? Does he apologise openly or do you have to " talk him round " ? Is he punished and if so in what way ? I ask as i experienced something similar with mine ( actually it was ten times worse ).

Like any parent i was upset for them , and ended up cutting them a fair bit of slack , after all , its a horrible thing to happen. Things escalated quite badly and in all honesty it turned into bullying , something i only realised when one of them shouted at me , almost word for word , the same horrible things that ex used to say. They also realised they could control the house , ie , impact others with rotton moods and general awkwardness ,creating ridiculous rows over nothing.

It was quite awful. I mentioned it to my counseller who said it wasnt unusual at all , and i think i read something similar in the Lundy book, that often a child , even a small one will try to fill their shoes once theyre gone.

The answer for me was to stop feeling guilty about their dad , it wasnt my fault , . I got tough too, previously i would punish them but not severeley enough , or i would try to talk to them and find out why they were angry and sympathise ect. Eventually i developed zero tolerance and although it took a long time everythings ok now. It was quite horrific to see a little kid throwing stuff around and relishing in the power they had over the household.

I hope things improve for you PM , it just takes time.

I think id remove the playstation , remove the fuse from his tv in his room if hes got one , and i think he would only be coming down at mealtimes for today and tomorrow. I wouldnt try to talk to him either as will only ignore you and this puts the power on him . Expect serious kicking off if you ignore him , hes likeley to start upstairs in order to get you to go up.

Get rid of this idea its because of something he wants or needs or isnt getting. Hes got what hes got and its tough , your doing everything you possibly can in a really hard situation.

Oh,thank you SO much!!!

That is exactly what I do - feel guilty,go and cuddle him,try to talk him round,sympathise - give him a way out..

I've just done all that a minute ago.And yes,he stuck two fingers up and told me to piss off.
When I calmly said that was unacceptable and that he'd need to stay in his room,he pushed past me and trashed the pc desk.I will have to take loads of fuses out downstairs.He has nothing but books in his room,but won't stay there and knows I cant force him.

It does feel like bullying.

I SO appreciate your advice

Its horrible isnt it. I used to regularly end up in tears. I dont know if this will help or not , but my counseller told me to emotionally disengage for now , ignore , ignore , ignore ect. At the time i thought yeah right , because if i ignored it they would either start on a sibling , or they would start trashing things . On one occasion one of them resorted to yelling out of the windows that i was killing them to get me to go up !

If i didnt go upstairs to to try to sort it out they would trash things in their room , anything and everything to get me to go up , they were usually successfull. And they always had a sob story too, ie , it was ok for me , they dont have a dad , or they would mention a minor incidant at school from weeks ago and blow it up out of proportion , i didnt love them ect.

Often when i did go up they would continue and i would sometimes catch a glimmer of glee flicker across their faces. Mine wasnt in an uncontrollable rage at all , they were sadly enjoying it. Counseller stressed to just not take it on , to immune myself so that the nasty words didnt hurt ect.

I stopped reacting as she suggested and it got even worse , they would explode in real fury as i refused to be affected by them . Am waffling , heres the point i was trying to make , and this is bizarre , when i refused to engage , i actually felt TIGHT !!
How ridiculous is that !

There i was , an adult women , feeling tight and guilty because i wont allow my kid to abuse me ! As you can imagine , that prompted complicated discussions at the following sessions ! But it WILL get better Pm .

Dignified - how did it stop? - has it?

That could have been me writing your last post,except only Ds does this.DD's do attitude,but I don't have such a problem with that.

He is doing mad,slow laughter now.I have stopped any eye contact as he just leers at me.
It's unbelievable that a boy who was so sweet and kind up until recently would behave like this.
He is enjoying it now that he has seen there is nothing I can do.He just wants to get me running round the house,switching things off and telling him to go to his room - which he wont.If I ignore him,he'll go back on the pc and kick out if I go near.

He'e only 9.
He told me "It's not my fault you married a f*er like my dad,I know you wish I was dead"

If he was smaller,I would lift him upstairs.
But he's almost as big as me,and very strong.And he kicks.

Yes, it has stopped , took nearly three years though and was a slow process with many relapses ( and broken things ) and lots of tears from me. I wouldnt fancy carrying him up the stairs either , hes bigger than me.

The laughing you describe , hes not quite done yet is he . This is not a little boy in a rage is it. I know hes only 9 but how about going out for an hour and just leaving him to it , even if its just for a walk ?Alternativeley how about texting a freind to call you to have a happy chat , ignoring him and giving him a chance to snap out of it ?

I think the trick is to stamp this out before it even starts , once they get going they seem to work themselves up and wont stop. Did you reply to his comment about his dad ? ( nice bit of provoking there with the dead comment by the way ) I stupidly used to and i would find myself defending myself and justifying things to a kid.

Explain nothing, justify nothing , do not give these statements credit by defending them . Ignore . When he is calmer i would state firmly and clearly that it wasnt ok, that x y or z will be the consequences for this behaviour and i would be very cool with him. I would NOT ask him what he was upset about or how he feels or anything like that , just that he is not to disrespect you in this way end of.

He will probably whinge or bring up his dad or try to guilt you in some way , shut that conversation down immediateley . It might be usefull to come up with a list of consequences ( make them serious ) and put them on the fridge or something , then theres no dispute, he knew exactly what the consequences would be so tough tooty, no whinging.

No , I didn't reply and I have stopped bothering with the kind, supportive stuff - many thanks for permission to leave that!!!!

I have told him there will be consequences,not sure what yet,as have confiscated most items.He says he wont go to his Dads.
I will ground him evenings and weekends,but he will just go out into the garden,or make me fight him to go upstairs.

It is awful to feel so badly towards my own son.Looks like this will go on all day again.

I will go out with dd's after school and leave him behind.

Thanks so much,dignified.

pm, so sorry to hear what you and your ds are going through.
Dignified's advice sounds excellent, but do you have access to professional support? Either counselling to help you deal with him and your own feelings about him, or sessions just for him? Does his school have a counsellor?
You have so much on your plate in practical terms alone without having to pick up all your ds's emotional baggage as well.

Pm , the womens centre WA put me in touch with had a counseller for children ,although i didnt take them up on it for several reasons.

One was that i didnt want to give any more attention to the behaviour and secondly , i dont know how to say this , but i was concerned that they may have learnt how to do it even better, and they might have interpretated me arranging a counseller as victory for them , ie " mum cant cope with us ". Im sure they wouldnt have now, but at the time it worried me. It was a psycological battle if you know what i mean.

How about arranging to see someone at a local womens centre to offload onto and get some support ? It was a massive help to me at the time. School counsellers were out of the question for me as i suspected they would find something wrong at home and sympathise with them , effectiveley okaying it.

I needed someone to say " This isnt ok, it has to stop, right now ". Well meaning freinds suggested spending more time , being more understanding , cutting even more slack , they didnt get it. Not saying its so in your case PM , but i think mine had watched and learned from their dad and simply enjoyed attempting to dominate me , i think it made them feel quite powerfull, in a world where everything was tightly controlled for them.

There are no children's services in Wales,and the funding has been cut for WA ,so they can't offer anything except drop in once a week.

He is not in school at the moment - waiting for a place,on appeal.That's giving him even more opportunity - and me no space at all.

I fear speaking to the GP and getting referred to SS in case he loses out on a school place.

Totally agree that someone needs to say "stop" - I am great at saying it,but I can't enforce anything ,so he can effectively hold us all hostage with violence.

And,yes,my friends locally are all very sorry for him and feel I should be cuddling him and being understanding.They seem to hear what I'm saying as an exaggeration.And he is unusually big for his age,they can't imagine a 9 year old carrying on the way I describe.

He is still walking about the house as he pleases and enjoying the power.

This article advises calling the police for support if you're genuinely afraid. I know this may sound drastic. There are other links on the site too.

How bad would it be for everyone if the DS didn't get into the school you're appealing about? Are you sure SS involvement would adversely affect the appeal?

One approach here is to talk to him when he's calm -- take him out for a walk and chat in the park or somewhere neutral, about the thoughts he has when he starts getting angry, and how he tries to solve the problems he feels he has by the tantrums he throws. Ask him about the thought process and where he thinks he's getting with it, if any of the things that are upsetting him are going away as a result of his behaviour, and ask him how he thinks he could change things himself. I think there has to be a big stick somewhere in your approach though.

Dealing with it when he's in full force is counter productive, as is trying to talk about it in the immediate aftermath when he's still got all that adrenaline coursing through him.

I think id take the other dcs into another room or your bedroom and play a game or watch a film together and leave him to it . When he asks for something tomorrow tell him no , no telly , no crisps ect , no playstation , no nothing , stay in your room . Id make him earn these items back after hes behaved properly for at least a month , these things are luxerys , not necessities. Standby though , they step it up at first but while the benefits outweigh the disadvantages he will continue.

I understand re the Gp. Its a pity hes not older then you could just go out ! When hes calm have you told him in no uncertain terms that what hes doing is being bullying and abusive ? What does he say ? Does he behave like this if you have freinds round , is he worse , better ?

I wonder if its worth giving womans aid a call for a chat if you can get some privacy from him for half an hour ? This is a really common problem , lots of people experience this but obviously they keep quiet about it.
I used to ring parentline in desperation, and although their loveley they automaticly started the why do you think theyre like this , do you think they want to spend more time with you ?
Like you say , i dont think people could imagine them behaving that way , effing and blinding and smirking ect.

I nearly suggested calling the police but felt a bit shit because i never did .
Stupidly i had threatened it on occasion but never actually did it.

On one occasion i really would have and went downstairs to get the phone , they stopped immediateley . They can tell if you mean it or not. I think that article is really good actually and i agree with bringing it out into the open , i colluded in keeping it secret because to be honest i was ashamed and embarresed and felt it reflected badly on me.

With hindsight i would have done as it suggests. Do you have family locally who could come over when hes doing this , or any good freinds close by ?

The school thing is supposed to be to help him.There are two primaries locally,one Welsh one half English.All my dc have had a totally Welsh education since starting school,but we moved to this area a year ago and I put them into the half English school as it is on our road.
Unfortunately,both ds and dd3 have struggled in English,and with the unstructured teaching style in the school .Ds 's teacher takes years 4-6,and really doesn't like him.He had a bad report last term.

I am moving them into the Welsh school and took them out of the other one during the holidays,only to find that dd has a place right away,but they want me to appeal re ds due to high class numbers in year 5.I am told it is a formality.

I started writing and had to leave as he was throwing stuff and threatening to hit dd2 while she was holding baby.

I have called th police as he is trying to pull the stair banister off.The operator advised going to the GP in the am,but took my details and said someone will phone back.

I feel like I have completely failed now.

Dont you dare do the fail thing !
Pm , you have done fantasticly . I know what guts it takes to speak about this ,and i wish id have had your balls when this was going on here.

Does he know youve called the police ? Poor you , youve had this all day havent you.

He never does this in front of anyone.

I have taken him out loads of times for long chats.Yesterday we went to a castle for a picnic and he was lovely.He does talk about his anger and we have had a plan for "getting hotter" - when to count to ten,ask for help,express his feelings etc...he's really into it when fine.
But there's no gettinmg throuhwhen he's like this.
He heard me phoning the police and started laughing.
I am in the front room with the dd's.He is banging on the door.We are taking it in turns to hold it shut.
I've told him the consequences stuff,he just laughs and tells me to f off,he swings punches at me to make me flinch.He wont go tohis room.

Oh no. Can you ring them again and get someone to come ? Maybe a serious talk from a police officer will make him see the seriousness of it.

You are NOT A FAILURE. No more than anyone who is trying to deal with a situation of abuse and fears calling in the outside agencies that may be available to help. It's no sign of weakness or failure to call in reinforcements and get the thing out in the open air.

Well done for calling the police. There may be a youth liaison officer you could talk to about all this and maybe have a chat with your DS at some point, or maybe they could give you a referral for therapy for your DS.