NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

You're almost certainly right about calling people by their roles in his life, Bertie. After all the main characteristic of Ns is that they don't see other people as people, but as wallpaper. They idealise a new partner because they see what they want to see, someone who fulfils the image they've set up of partner-hood. Later on when the partner does something imperfect they demonise her/him instead. At no time is the partner seen as an individual human being with a claim on compassion and the right to make mistakes. They are there to fulfil the N's need, nothing else. Heaven forbid they should have needs of their own.

I have to say it sounded as though you are still worried about the silly man's health. If he will drink too much whilst taking medication then it's possible he will do himself a mischief, but it's quite possible he was lying about or exaggerating the pain because he wanted you to worry. Either way you couldn't stop him when you were with him so you sure as hell can't stop him now.

Thanks Annie. Oh no, I'm not worried, I'm a bit about the whole thing, but my friend is and she wants to drag him to the doctors etc. I told her to let him get on with it! I'd almost say it would do everyone a favour if he makes himself ill, but I'm not that mean. I just wondered if it was a typical N thing to do or whether he's just an idiot?

Hi All,

Just wanted to put my story in print here, for validation to myself if no-one else. Reading MN is one of the things keeping me sane and from doubting myself as I embark on the long and difficult divorce process.

Classic story, really. I have seen each of the elements of my story in those of others on this thread:

• Met h at 19, was first and only serious relationship
• Have low self-esteem, was pursued and swept off my feet with compliments and big romantic gestures
• He called me names, was tight with money, punched walls in anger, right at the start. This was "a normal and healthy release of anger; it's better out than in"; I accepted this explanation.
• Over time, his abusive behaviour progressed to frequent rages, throwing crockery and other household objects, breaking down a door with his fists, threatening to hit, harm, and ultimately to kill me -- once when I was pregnant (I miscarried).
• His constant justification when I tried to present his behaviour as unacceptable was "It's your fault, you made me angry." Occasionally dressed up as "It's because I love you so much, no-one can make me as angry as you."
• Any attempt to explain to him how hurt and scared I felt during his rages were met with threats of suicide.
• His lack of empathy only became apparent to me during my pregnancy and miscarriage, neither of which he felt any emotion about. It was a MMC, which took 6 weeks to resolve. A week after I had been told the pg had stopped progressing, I was at home and crying, H said: "When are you going to stop crying? I want you back." I decided to leave because I could not bear to think of him doing to children what he was doing to me, or even having children witness it. I hate the fact that I was willing to protect hypothetical children, but not my real live self, for 12 years.
• Now that I am divorcing him, he is creating every obstacle he can, painting himself as the victim, and yet clamours that he "loves" me and expects that this is just a phase I am going through and that I will come back to him once I have "fixed myself".

Therapy is showing me that my Mom is also an N, and my Dad her victim. He is ruled by fear and was also completely disengaged from raising my sister and me, which means I integrated messaged of worthlessness from both of them. For a while I was given to friends to raise when I was between 3 and 4 as my Mom was having a breakdown; my sister was kept at home. I was marked for life as the "wilful, stubborn, headstrong" child, because my mother had found it difficult to potty-train me; she still complains about it to this day. My sister is "the good child", which is no easier label to bear, as she is guilted/crushed into living up to it. In a way I am lucky to have been labeled wilful, as that gave me some room for my own will at times, although in the end I was always punished and made to feel bad about having a spark of self; this obviously helped me accept my h's reasoning that his abusive behaviour was my fault. Both parents were fucked up by their own parents; my aunts and uncles are or were all in dominant/submissive relationships (some with DV). I despair whether the cycle can be broken, and feel FUBAR.

My dearest dream was to have a family and children of my own. Now, I feel that will no longer be possible as I am over 30 and damaged, and I anguish that anyway I would probably only visit on my children some version of what was done to me, unconsciously.

Recovery can't come soon enough. I often doubt I will get there.

You will get there Itsme and you still have years to start a family and have children of your own. I don't think you would unconsciously to anything like what you have been through to yor children because you are aware of how it has affected you. Things may look bleak now but you will soon start to enjoy the freedom that comes with not being in an abusive relationship.

Just wanted to let you know I read your post, ItsMe. How long ago did you leave your XH?

Hi Bertie. It's been 3 months.

I feel so bleak now, and yet I remember how much worse I felt earlier in the separation (not sleeping for days on end, having nightmares, being unable to do simple things like eat or pay the bills). Now I am functioning OK on my own, and even taking baby steps to build myself a social life, so clearly things are getting better, bit by bit.

In fact, I'm annoyed that I have all this court stuff to wade through for the next couple years, since for me the marriage is clearly over -- why does this need to drag on so much? All I want to do now is focus on rebuilding my confidence in myself and a new social life. Guess I'll have to do as much of that as I can while also fighting the legal battle with stbxh (who is making himself as much of a victim and PITA as he can, oh joy).

I continue to be amazed at the fact that h cannot understand any of the following statements:

"I am hurt/scared by your behaviour."
"It's over."
"No."

Like, he seriously, deeply cannot comprehend these simple statements, when they come from me. Although I am getting better at acceptance, the mind still boggles.

It's only been 3 months? That is no time at all. Please be kind to yourself and don't put yourself down. It sounds like you are doing fantastically with your recovery. I am still now, 18 months on, suddenly realising "Hey, I can do X and I don't need to ask anyone's permission!". Are you having any kind of counselling or therapy at all? That can really aid with recovery.

Have you read some of the links in the first page of this thread? I know I found it really hard to deal with XP while I was still expecting him to react like a normal human being. When I was still with him I used to read these threads and hear the way some of the other ladies spoke about Ns saying things like "They don't think like you." "They are barely human" etc, and I used to think but what an awful thing to say about someone, no matter what they have done to you. It's really hard to think about someone you have loved in the context of being some kind of monster, even if you know in theory they have done horrible things. I guess we just like to make justifications for people's behaviour, because we don't like to admit that people really behave that way for no reason at all. It's a safety mechanism, because if it can happen to that person, it can happen to you, and that's too frightening to think about. So you justify it somehow. But then there comes a point when you realise that actually, just because one person did something, it doesn't mean that you as a person have the capability to do that as well. If someone's brain is wired up in a completely different way, it's pointless trying to understand their decisions using your logic, because it won't, and never will make sense to you. You have to understand how their system of logic works, and then you will understand.

The first thing to remember at all times is what Annie said to me above: "After all the main characteristic of Ns is that they don't see other people as people, but as wallpaper. They idealise a new partner because they see what they want to see, someone who fulfils the image they've set up of partner-hood. Later on when the partner does something imperfect they demonise her/him instead. At no time is the partner seen as an individual human being with a claim on compassion and the right to make mistakes. They are there to fulfil the N's need, nothing else. Heaven forbid they should have needs of their own."

Have you seen the film The Truman Show? None of the other characters really exist, they are only there in order to fulfil some function in his life. If you can imagine a sort of Truman Show where the director is Truman himself, then you start getting close to seeing how an N sees the world.

What a wonderful post, Bertie.

I'm sorry that you're suffering the early stages of separation from your N, ItsMe. The feeling is bleak, as you aptly put it - after a lifetime of filling roles for the narcissists in your life, it takes a lot of readjustment to become properly free. I'm so glad you're doing therapy - it helps, as does reading about this mad condition (and discovering you're not like that!) Feel free to pick over your memories & thoughts as you need to.

Be gentle with yourself, you're probably not used to gentleness :)

ItsMe, sweetheart, it's so recent love, of course you still feel raw.

I'm only 3m in too and it's hard, feels like yesterday, but feels like ages ago that I was with him in that goddawful life.

You are 30s, I hadn't even MET the X (father of my DS) when I was 30. didn't meet him till I was 32 and didn't have my DS until 38.

You need time to heal, you need to regroup and rediscover all the wonderful things about you. What you like, what you dislike and what your goals and objectives in life are. Now is the time to be utterly selfish, get to know and love the marvellous being you are.

Take time out to love yourself. Stick around and keep posting, let us help you see who you are.

Peeps - anyone heard about this book? Help I'm Going Crazy! I've been recommended it together with the old chestnut Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway.

I lost 4kg on a better eating plan, but have now sabotaged it, as I realise I am now hiding behind the fat. Fat people being invisible to society, and non-threatening in my little head of course. Either that or I have swapped the real caged existence/agoraphobia with hiding inside a fat person...

The idea of being thin/attractive (to men in particular) terrifies me. I need to find a way to be healthier, thinner without being scared.... I'm gobby enough to tell anyone that approached me to Keep Moving, so why all this camoflage stuff?

Does that sound bonkers?

Actually at 3 months post-breakup, thinking back, I was attempting some kind of bad rebound relationship thing which quite clearly was never going to work, convincing myself I'd "really been single for 6 months anyway, so it's fine" - thanks to MN though I had the sense to keep him at arm's length and not introduce him to DS. I wasn't thinking clearly at all, not the way I can now.

XP at this point, by the way, was declaring his brand new girlfriend to be "the one" and convincing her to have a baby with him so he could attempt "Real family #2"

HerH, it doesn't sound bonkers - it makes sense in a way. It's like your armour, sort of, and it must be daunting to think about shedding that, even though you know logically that nobody else is wearing armour and you don't really need it.

I haven't read the book, sorry. For the other issue, have you tried CBT? A friend of mine is having it at the moment and the thing I just wrote about the "armour" reminded me of that - her issue is OCD/germ phobia, and her "armour" is to constantly wash her hands, use hand gel and avoid touching surfaces which might have germs on them. But she is finding the CBT really helpful and it's both helping her attempt things in tiny steps, and also to get to the root cause of her fear and also to rationalise it so that it isn't as scary any more.

Hissy, I haven't read the "Help!" book but Susan Jeffries helped me a lot during early recovery - particularly "Feel The Fear" and "Dance With Life". I also like Carlson's "Don't Sweat The Small Stuff". All good, healthy advice to worry a bit less & enjoy a bit more!

I am still struggling a bit with hiding myself, iykwim. I maintain a fairly crap appearance, and have developed mild agoraphobia & phone phobia. It's quite hard, ime, to find a balance between fighting the self-effacement and beating myself up for not doing things perfectly! As it happens, I've just dug out my Jeffries and Carlson books for a bit of encouragement :)

I don't know whether you'd identify with this, but I'm becoming very aware that I'm trying to find my identity. Surprise, surprise, it's turning out to be very similar to the person I've always been (only less of a perfectionist - and less malleable!) I sort of went into shock after losing the Ns from my life, feeling that I hadn't a clue who I was.

I wish I'd known all this, and done the work with myself, so much sooner. Better late than never, though, hey?

Hmm, hadn't actually considered other people not wearing armour. You are right Bertie, they don't.

I did CBT donkey's years ago to try to stave off full blown depression so I kind of AM rationalising stuff, I am pulling things out and examining them, which is helping, it's just the making sense of it all.

Have no RL people to talk to on this though, which is not ideal, but I have here and that is a bloody good leaning post to have. Talking, actually verbalising takes it to a whole new level though doesn't it?

I do have a friend who asked me to talk to her. But I don't go out, really, ever, and much less spend time with any friends, so to go over there and talk about my woes seems so selfish. I always end up in tears and it's just not fair.

garlic, as you may know, I too have suffered mild agoraphobia, and a disquiet with the phone too. I challenged the agoraphobia, vocally, and asked myself what I was afraid of and once I had said it out loud, I could dissect it and minimise it. Still struggle some days, but Rescue Remedy gives me the bravado to get my arse out of the door. I know that the fear was down to having the abusive thought/deed/breath police in my life, now that he is gone, I know that I'm not going to be in trouble, no matter who calls me, no matter who I talk to, no matter where I go.

The perfectionism, for me, was not about what MY standards were, it was all his and trying to appease him. I guess I will have to appease myself really won't I, yes, that looking for my identity... not sure I'm actually quite there yet, but yes, it ought to be on my list of things to locate... that's for sure!

May I digress here a moment? All the people I had to unceremoniously dump from my life when X took hold of it. He forced me to get rid of them. I feel so bloody awful about all of it. these were good people, they deserved better than that from me. I can't apologise to them, I have no idea where any of them are.

Argh! this makes me so bloody angry! Why do I have to claw myself back through all this shite? Have I not suffered enough? Why did he DO that to me? I should be saying bollocks to him and bouncing right back, he no longer controls me, why am I letting the legacy carry on hobbling my life?

I want to be better, I want to be strong, it just feels bone chillingly terrifying to break free from those chains.

Have the books on order, have emailed to find out about Freedom Programme, semi-have a life coach in the shadows, I guess I am doing what I can...

Just to say ... I love Facebook. It lets me find those people - the ones who were there when my life went tits-up, and to whom I don't know what to say. I can send them a two-line message, no heavy stuff, and it makes my day if they reply
It affords a light touch, which is what I need while I figure things/myself out. I'm so grateful for it, and for some of the really lovely replies I've had.

Perfectionism - hah! I bet we could fill a whole thread up in a day
I'm still learning to do things to my standards (finding out what my standards are, even). I'm decorating at the moment - the first time I've done it without reference to what a crowd of critical people in my head would think. This is odd, because people have paid me to design their decor. I suppose my ability to reflect other people's wishes made me good at it!

For my first few years of therapy, I kept a pastebook of What I Like, because I wasn't really aware of my own tastes. Have you tried it, Hissy? It's fun :)

I am liking the Stuff Wot I Like book! That is an excellent idea! An excuse to go into Paperchase and buy a book to FILL with lovely stuff I like? AWESOME! I am ex-design (management, not creative), so love mood boards etc!

I've just googled and tracked one of the Brazilian friends down... email sent, assuming the address is correct.... we shall see. Hope she doesn't laugh at my portuguese... it's been a while!

Loving your redecoration, what are you doing?

Bet that is fun, but daunting too!

Oh, freedom programme starts in Sept.... I think I can make the timings work etc!

Heh, daunting yes, especially since it's part of my project to accept imperfection!! I spent two days staring at a missed corner, willing myself not to re-do it ...

Seaside! I'm using sandstone colours from ivory to terracotta, water colours from pale greens & blues to loud turquoise, doing paint effects (imperfectly) and mixing patterns (randomly). I'm using fairy lights. It's going to be a riot of sensory input and messy edges

And you are the first person I've told. I'm decorating my own home, absolutely without reference to anyone else's opinion, entirely for myself. Hurrah!

Brilliant about the freedom programme! :)

A missed corner? oh the agony!

It sounds ADORABLE, and I hardly think a shock in terms of a concept. Seaside evokes summer holidays past, of relaxation, calm, quiet and contemplation. Stepping off the hamster wheel of life for a period of calm.

Enjoy it, but watch out for the seagulls eh?

Nao sabia que voce falava Portugues, tambem! (Don't know how to type the accents) Passei 5 anos no Brasil, faz muito tempo ja.

Yeah, maybe I should paint globs of gull-shit on all the surfaces ;)

se-levanta...

Morei dois anos la! Sao Paulo. 1989 e 1990 - Faz seculos!

CBA to look up the accents, can cut and paste them from word... but we're entre amigas

Off topic slightly, but I was just listening to KT Tunstall and I always think when I hear it that her song "The Entertainer" could quite accurately describe a narcissist. I like finding little references to things like this in books/films/music :)

Funny thing (and one of the reasons I believe he wasn't a narc although there were similarities), XH used to be sort of anti-perfectionist. That is, he could be quite OCD about something he wanted to do himself, absorbed in the fine detail for days, but would leave other things unfinished for years. He would be scornful of my efforts to do something properly because "nobody's going to notice" or "why are you wasting time on that?". I never knew whether I was going to get praise for an achievement or scorn for even bothering with something so trivial, let alone bothering to get it right - what is "right" after all, other than an excuse to either look down on him or avoid getting into bed with him? (And this not even at bedtime.) Of course when he did praise me for an achievement I was like a happy puppy, romping around all proud of myself, until the next downer. He also thrived on dirt and disorder, and would sabotage any of my attempts to tidy up, to the extent of leaving actual sacks of rubbish in the lounge if he couldn't find anything more subtle.

Still, it made a refreshing change from my dad, who was one of those "97%? What happened to the other 3%?" types, and horribly, obsessively tidy.

Annie, there's no direct connection as far as I know. A manipulator is far more likely to tap into whatever keeps you where they want you than to require specific levels of performance. My perfectionist tendencies come from my dad, and are so ingrained that I criticise myself harshly for any perceived shortfall (or, I should say, I did - my hard work is slowly paying off!)

Since it sounds as though you had similar early influences, your partner putting down your efforts as a waste of time was probably highly effective: it would have both confirmed that what you did wasn't good enough to be worth bothering with, and kept you on your toes waiting for approval. Of course, a fully-qualified narc truly wouldn't give a shit about anything you did, except as far as it reflected on him.

My X#2 literally didn't notice the stuff I did for charity, even though it was quite a lot at that time. I'd be off doing these events and things and it simply didn't feature anywhere on his radar.

Bertie - see what you mean about the lyric!