NPD / Abusive partner - Recovery thread

[IseeGraceAhead]

These threads were started last year by therealme though I gather there were excellent predecessors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a diagnosable condition on the continuum of Personality Disorders. Few Narcissists are diagnosed, however: a person must either present themselves for treatment or be sectioned to ensure diagnosis. Narcissists are very clever, they generally avoid compulsory referral. Narcissists believe They Are Right & Everybody Else Is Wrong; they will never seek treatment as they find themselves perfectly fine!

Common misconceptions:

[1] You can't call someone NPD if they haven't a diagnosis. Diagnosis is unlikely for the reasons above. Even Narcissists agree it's reasonable to determine a personality type as NPD (see links in first post). If you are in a relationship with a Narc, you don't need to be a clinician to know.

[2] He's got Aspergers or BPD, or is just a bit shit at dealing with people. Really? The obvious question is: why would you want to devote your life to someone like this? On a more technical note: emerging evidence, via biopsychology, suggests that Asperger and NPD brains exhibit similar differences from the average brain. And BPD is the baseline for all other Personality Disorders.

[3] S/He isn't "bad", they're just very hurt. Yes, they are very hurt. The more insight you gain into this spectrum, the more pain you feel for the sufferer. If you have a Narc parent, it's almost a given that you've gained tremendous insight - it was a necessity for your survival. The important thing is, YOU are not the same or you wouldn't be reading this. And understanding does NOT mean you can fix it.

[4] S/He just needs loving care. Yes, they do. They need it like a junkie needs heroin. You can keep on giving, they'll keep on taking and it will never be enough to satisfy them. Never. They'll suck you dry (emotional 'vampire') and then they'll rip you to shreds, just because you 'ran dry'.

[5] I get that s/he's abusive, but why say they've got a Personality Disorder? There's a spectrum of disorders: some are more 'needy'; some more 'domineering'; some are just fucking strange. At bottom, they're no more or less than deviations from the average. Nobody would choose a disordered realtionship unless they suffer from a need to be their partner's therapist. If this is you, try reading some of the links below.

Yes he pays CS. He always he would give up his job rather than pay ME maintenance. Bless him, what a star he was/is.

What I was going to say about mediation last night was perhaps it will be helpful for us in that case. XP does tend to stick to things which are written down but will always look for loopholes. Mathanxiety your experience sounds wonderful, I hope that ours can be as good. I think I'm constantly on my guard expecting him to be malicious towards me, but actually if I think back that would be out of character because he never ever got anyone back or followed through on his many threats to people, it was all talk. The only times he ever did anything was when it was face to face, usually he'd "snap" and do that empty eye mad staring thing (do you know what I mean by this btw?)

For example at the moment when he is cancelling on DS he always texts me with some excuse, he has never just failed to turn up, I guess because he knows this would put him clearly in the wrong, whereas if I complain about him hardly ever turning up he can say "But I was ill/had problems with the car/my mum was in hospital" etc. So if I can get some clear guidelines set up with no clear loopholes I think I will have fewer problems.

Even if it doesn't help at least it shows I've been willing to try something else, and it moves things forward again.

freedomfrom Call them. Don't worry - they won't mind at all, and they definitely will not laugh. They are not just for women who are being beaten up terribly every night, they are also for friends and family of those experiencing any kind of DV, those whose exes were abusive, emotional/verbal abuse comes under the umbrella of "domestic violence" as well, BTW. He's gaslighting, that's abusive. Phone them!

Hitgirl and silveryfox hello and welcome :)

Hi , thanks.

Freedom -- you are allowed to phone WA.

You are a victim of violence. Intimidation is violence. You don't need a black eye.

Bertie -- go prepared into the mediation process. Do not wait for anyone else to set the agenda. Know what you want in advance. Make him argue against what you want. Set your demands high and know what your bottom line will be and be prepared to appear to negotiate. (For instance, I was prepared to give up the right to alternate with exH one particular very American holiday with the children for the right to always have them with me for Christmas Day, i.e. wake up in their own beds that morning and go to sleep in their own beds that night)

Look at a calendar: look at holidays and school holidays and birthdays (yours and the DCs), bank holidays, summer hols, days like Christmas Eve, Christmas, Easter (whatever religious holidays are important to you), Mother's Day, Father's Day.

Think of what you really want in terms of communication with your ex: do you want e-mail only, post only, texts or any combination? Will you be free to contact the children by phone or email when they are with him and vice versa?

Imagine every possible scenario, including who can give permission for school field trips or medical authorisation, trips out of the country (all trips should require an itinerary and numbers where exH and the DCs can be reached apart form mobiles)

Above all, have a named third party appointed as an unofficial mediator in case of dispute (try a clergyman, ask him or her beforehand) and a provision to go back to the original mediator if a dispute can't be solved by talking it out with the third party. Otherwise you're left with a potential shouting match and only the option of bringing it all back to solicitors or back before the court.

HitGirl -- you need to renegotiate the 50/50 thing; I think you should go to a solicitor and be prepared to fight this through court, where my guess is you will win, as there's probably no court in the land that would see your ex as a fit parent for a SN child. he sounds like a prize N to me.

silveryfox are you okay? I saw your other thread. I know this thread can be a bit fast moving and long but feel free to jump in at any point :)

I have been lurking on MN for a few months now, particularly relationships, and I feel my eyes have been opened to some of the shit I put up with from my ex. (Together for 4 years, split up a few years ago due to long distance. No kids).

I feel like I could easily put a 'profile' of some of his behaviours together, many of the things he did, and it would be the picture of emotional abuse. Many of these things were textbook, eg. sulking and refusing to speak to me for days at a time, usually as a 'punishment' for some idle comment I had made that he didn't like, or if I was critical of any of his behaviour towards me; picking up on my insecurities, like my weight, and 'teasing' me about them to the point where I would do things like crash diet for a week every time he was coming to visit; blaming everyone, including me, except himself for things that went wrong with his life; being cruel and critical about my cooking and other things I did to help him etc etc.

But... I can't see him as an 'abuser' if you see what I mean. I still think of him as the love of my life and and have missed him and regretted splitting many times over the last few years, I still fantasise about us getting back together at some point. I think he genuinely loved me. I still make excuses for him in my head. We got together when we were 19, could he just have been young and stupid? Would he be different now? Would he recognise the way he used to behave was wrong and change? I think I would be far less likely to put up with things like this now, would that make a difference?

God I think I know the answers to these questions. MN is such an amazing community that has truly opened my eyes, but I think it is an ongoing process. Will keep reading.

I know! I still feel annoyed when I see X playing happy families - even though I know his wife must be going slowly mad - and wonder if it really was all my fault And still have to watch a tendency to criticise myself with his eyes, iyswim. Madness!

Still, it does get better over time. Happy to hear you already know your answers Mumsnet is amazing, isn't it?

Grace, how do you see your ex? that must be very hard to swallow?

I am having a bit of a low time as it is right now due to mobility issues, and just a few minutes ago picked up a card from the mat, that came through the post from exmil.

she has this thing where she wants me to run around after her and she is asking if I am better can I meet her half way with the children, which means a long drive, for her to see the children for a few hours, whilst I understand due to age she has problems herself, she has a husband and four children I am alone with dependant children, she has an excuse for why things won't work unless it is the thing she wants it to be, she will also want to give short notice and to dictate time and date...

I will reply, I need to work out with what to cut through this rubbish but to not aleniate her, i don't want her to take me to family court like her son did...

She is a very controlling woman, I think she has npd also... any idea's???

i kind of regret dd sending her a painting in the summer now, it seems to have sparked her supply, which she has probably lost from older golden child cousin who is fifteen and at boarding school and not around grandma as much anymore....

options meet half way and damage my mobility - no way

kids too young to do themselves - no way

she will find any excuse going to come up here - can try and work on making that more inviting for her

don't mind contact to be as it was before their father left about four times a year... for a day

after he left I invited them to meals for kids birthdays that type of thing, had them in restaurants and I paid as they had costs of travel and possibly hotels, stopped that after ex threatened me if I had dealings with anyone who had anything to do with him he would have me arrested, told inlaws to go to contact centre they did not want to do that... so not seen children in a very long time over a year

We still have mutual friends - it was just a photo on Facebook :)

Wrt to your MIL, mh, I think you're right in that you need to cut through the rubbish. If you leave any unsaid things out of it, she simply asked if you could meet her halfway when you're better. You're not, so surely the reasonable reply is that it's nice she wants to see the GCs, it must be frustrating for her to be limited in her travelling - and you understand that because you can't travel either! Maybe offer her a phone chat with DCs, and tell her you'll let her know when you're able to drive again.

Is that all right?

I think that is a great reply to her, and offering the phone call! thanks Grace x

Ouch re the photo's via facebook, why do we hurt ourselves looking at their photo's? I have looked at ex's wedding photo, and showed it to mother, I was interested in how they looked, to see any guilt at their treatment of the children... and their happiness at the kids expense, and mine to an extent, oh well if they are happy lets hope they won't try and hurt anyone else in life!

:)

Helps to remember their faces are masks.

Hi everyone. Am always reading,if not posting.

I am suddenly feeling loads better in myself..AD's kicking in...my thoughts have slowed down and are not as catastrophic...coping again,thank goodness...

After the usual pleading and moaning,I agreed to my parents visiting for tea today.
"We so want to be more involved,and to help you.." says M last night on the phone.

I said they should arrive at 3pm so they could mind baby while I popped to collect ds and dd3 from school.

"You must have a think about what else we can do when we come" she says...

When I returned with the dc at 3,45 - baby in tow,(Plus Dd3's friend who is coming for tea) they were waiting at the door..denied all knowledge of plan...M pushed past dc into kitchen and started talking at high ,fast rate about recent WI outing -
"Did you hear what I just said?" she says ,as I deal with bags ,coats ,nappies etc..Father calls for a cup of tea....

I get tea on table for dc and bf baby while this continues.

DD1 rings from school to remind me she and DD2 are in a concert starting at 6pm,will I be there?

Dd3's friends' mother will be arriving to collect her at 6.30.Baby goes down at 7.Ds has rugby finishing at 7.30.

I tell M that I would love some help with all these plans - could she go to the concert,or sit with baby and dd3?

"Oh we're just here for a quick cup of tea,I've got WI flower arranging tonight."

DS says "is that more interesting than us ,then GM?"

"It's always got to be about you,hasn't it ?" she says - to me....
They left,having been here a total of an hour and a half.

1.I notice this
2.I expect it
3.It doesn't hurt - REALLY,TRULY
4.They seem ridiculous
5.It has virtually no relation to my actual,real life

pinemartina one word springs to mind...exhausting.. how did you even manage an hour and a half?

Well,I was going to post this in Stately Homes.But,for me,the big change in my ability to cope with them - despite years of therapy and professional insight - the key,is my recovery from XP...

I truly feel as if I am waking up from a nightmare....I honestly feel only contempt and disgust towards him now....It is as if some long-acting drug has finally left my system..

I credit MN totally for this.Absolutely.
Validation on tap.

He embodied all the worst toxic elements of both my parents.He behaved towards me exactly as they always have.

As I have peeled away the stuff that stuck me to him - confronted the reality,despite my left over feelings of "love" (Ha!) - I have finally "seen" them for what they are.

I know he will never change and is a harmful,narcissistic ,abusive,bully.
I have learnt how to deal with those,through this thread and it's links - all the wonderful people here....

So - something has "Clicked" at long last.
Until a few weeks ago,they could HURT me.

Now,they can't.
I am unstuck.
Really.
It is tedious.They are boring.Ridiculous.Exhausting too.

But.The whole tedious nonsense is ONLY that.And it proves to me - when this is all I feel,that I am FREE!

I will not be Narc-ed again.

WHAT a powerful post, PM! And the one in SH.

I want you to keep writing, because this is what I want to happen for me! Maybe I'll catch it from you

That's a lovely post pinemartina after hearing what you have been going through over the last few months, when you really have had so much to contend with, what a turning point. I echo what the others are saying, please don't go away, you and everybody else on here have helped me so much..I'm trying to keep carrying on going forward but very wary of what life has to offer and havn't quite reached the stage yet where I feel confident that I would spot another Narc

That's a great post pm and i am so glad to hear you have had an epiphany moment. These all add up in the end to Getting Over It.

You will find you might slip back again - but once you have had a few brighter moments, they tend to start snowballing and things are on the mend.

You cope so brilliantly. You are so right to realise what an utter shitbag your ex was. xx

Well, well, I'm just feeling the first stirrings of real anger about XH#2. (I've always been a slow burner but this is ridiculous!!) I've just read a post by fatblackcat on FF's "legal action" thread, where she says:
It was so hard to be extra-especially ultra-careful so as not to accidently annoy or insult him - a "misplaced" word, the "wrong" tone of voice, all led to me having to explain myself in order to smooth it over, calm him down, reassure him. It was exhausting. The only thing that worked was to agree with him 24/7.
I remember pre-planning exactly how to phrase a thing, sometimes for literally weeks. If I managed to hit on the right expression, he'd be thrilled. FFS

And what I have only just realised is ... I DON'T CARE if the man's got Asperger's, NPD, or fucking PMT; he's a mean-spirited little arse who used my good nature to turn me into an anxious wreck for the sake of his own, all-encompassing, desperate ego. Cunt.

So, after last night's insomnia binge, I'm taking a sedative and going to sleep ... and dream maliciously of X#2 I love Mumsnet!

Grace I remember those unhappy days too, trying not to upset him with the wrong facial expressions in the name of all that's good and holy -- until I started giving him a taste of his own silent treatment and behaving as if he didn't exist when we were still living under the same roof, which I still do.

It was a horrible experience for me to do that day in and day out, but the only way I could escape was to blank him out and fight his fire with my own. I frankly do not know how he kept it up for all those years because it is a strain to focus that hard on creating and maintaining an attitude of the utmost hostility, and to marshall all your malignant and negative energy constantly.

Sorry folks haven't been on the thread.

ExH is playing silly buggers.

I think its to do with me moving on, and shifting the goalposts so he can't stay in that usual place where he puts me down.

He's very angry.

I'm tired, emotional and wrung out.

And the DD's are having world war 3 over a Wii game.

Grace great your getting angry about it. I have the same thing that I may be a little angry just after but then I seem to bottle it up or push it down and just dont feel angry with XP anymore. I know this isnt healthy and a product from my upbringing but without the anger. I think thats what, for me, so hard to stick to boundaries.

I'm reading Engels, the nice girl syndrome. Really helping me understand why often, us 'victims' are 'nice girls'.

XP is coming today to take DS1 in garden, (i've sais i dont want him in house anymore since he threatened to record me) looks like rain though. of course if i cancel based on that I am being obstructive etc. If I say anything that doesnt completely agree with him I will be made out to be rude, wrong, obstructive, abusive etc......

its just so stressful.. i've got so much going on in my life, i cant sleep. Part of me thinks it will just be easier today if i let him do what he wants, if he wants to come in the house then fine. i know he'll try and come in at some point. i just cant be dealing with battling with a bully

BBB i know how you feel, so emotionally draining when they are constantly on your case about whatever it is at the time.

If you have kids with these men, do you really have to put up with this for 18 years?? DOes it ever end or can you ever break free?

Christ, I'm glad I haven't got children! Well, obviously not in the pure sense - but, if I did, they'd not only be a permanent link with one or both insane exes, but I'd have brought them up with my weirdy world-view! Poor kids; lucky they weren't born iyswim?

Thank you both, math & ff. Some of the things I've known for ages are finally beginning to sink in emotionally. Thank god! Jon said, most passionately, that he blamed Dad, Alan and other mad Narcs in my life for the way I was. Little ol' blame-taker me, I supposed he meant they'd damaged me so that I was unable to have a normal, happy, healthy relationship with his lovely self. Well, that was almost true - I didn't know enough about being in a healthy relationship - but what he meant was that I resisted his manipulation too strongly! Whilst I didn't understand what was going on, I knew what it felt like: it felt like living with Dad, Alan & co. And I bucked. No wonder he was angry.

I still have a residual sensation of 'walking on eggshells', but feel I'm learning on a deeper level now, hurrah. Feet on solid ground sometime soon! THAT will be a lifetime first Man, there'll be no stopping me ...

BBB, I bet you're right about his getting angrier as you move out of his control. Well done you :) Hope you manage to hold your barriers today. xx